PC Intellect has a serious problem.

[Bhaaltazar]

You could make the same argument for lack of ranged weapons for Strength build, early game shotgun is useless for long range, but that is the point. If you want range use either bows or some automatic rifles. Dunno when I play intellect I usually go for melee and just use turret as a shotgun, otherwise I just use sledge turret to knock them off at some bottleneck.
Each class needs to be played differently, but I usually progress the fastest in intellect with some points in perception as well for few points in lucky looter. I get majority of my equipment from looting which surpasses my current crafting skills.

 

[meganoth]

The 'solution' posited here multiple times is "just spec into another tree for their gun!"
Which implies that its not OP at all to have a gun while playing INT, Just as long as you pay a Skill Point tax to get it, right? 

Having to use a gun of a different spec may be a disadvantage for your combat abilites. Which is exactly what I am saying, INT is not the strongest combat class, intentionally. If you want a combat heavy class take something else. If you take INT either pay that tax (which will help you in mid/end-game as well, it isn't really wasted if you continue to use that gun) or don't, the difference is there, but there are lots of ways to decrease the risk. Play slower and use spike traps for safety, quest and loot tier 1 POIs, in other words, act like the squishy class you are.

In my group game the INT player could build his first turret on day 5, on the same day I increased AGI to 3 and increased guns from 1 to 2. So if you as the INT player had invested one point into whatever gun you liked as well, until that day 5 you would just miss a few percent of headshot kill percentage you can't rely on for safety and probably have a worse gun while I could craft a quality 4 pipe gun. If you can't handle that measly difference, just avoid INT.

If you want to reply that you are single player and the example doesn't fit, well, in my SP game I invested in a lot more other perks, for example one point into miner69er, farming and wrenching. I didn't even have the points to invest much into my attribute at all and my gun was only a tier 1 pistol because I got lucky with a toilet, which could happen to anyone, including the INT player. Without that my gun would have been less than quality 4 at day 5.

Just remove the tax

(I don't have any say in this, but for arguments sake No, that tax is there because the INT player is stronger on utility and with that ultimately balanced. Don't want to play a character strong on utility? Then go for something else. 

Given that taking Advanced Engineering also unlocks EXP gains from electrical trap kills and Robotics is worthless to take until you get at least your first turret (Requiring 2 different books since it requires a workbench to craft one), you could have that weapon be disposable thrown 'traps' that take the place of a gun for INT and enhanced via Robotics. Primitive springloaded traps (Pipe era) giving way to sophisticated electrical traps in the later tiers. 

AFAIK the workbench can be crafted from day 1.

NT will always be my favourite way to play in the mid and lategame, But i will NEVER enjoy that early game experience as ut currently exists. Which is why I'm here asking Fun Pimps to give it some TLC.

We will see whether TFP reacts. My guess is they are perfectly fine with it as it is, like many players here are who see it just as a challenge. In my view, if they really add a gun to INT they would have to massively nerf all the turrets and the stun baton to not make INT into an overpowered class, something that might sour your happines with late-game INT as well. Even now end-game INT is rather too strong on combat for a supposedly utility class, as you say yourself.

One other suggestion for you: The perk point redistribution potion was largely reduced in price and often can be found in loot as well. If you don't like early-game INT, simply spec into a different attribute and respec when the time is right.

 

[Javabean867]

Why do people want all the stats to play the same?  INT is great, the pipe baton, the junk turrets, the healing and bartering bonuses.  Its a fun class to play by yourself, even better when you are supporting your friends.

But to each their own.

 

[TWORDY]

The Penetrator has some value on horde nights and in any POI where a room full of zombies jump out, and you funnel them back through a door - however, I think the part about penetrating blocks of a certain HP is nearly useless. I wonder if that particular perk could be rebalanced by buffing the armor reduction, adding a headshot dismemberment buff, or adding a stun/stagger when used against high-armor enemies.

+Penetration of blocks is nearly useless - yeah I completely agree. But looks cool though.

+Stun/Stagger when used against high-armor enemies or radiated ones would be highly welcome.

Overall, I think it should be communicated clearly to the playerbase that Intelligence is not a "heavy tank class" but rather a "combat supporting role:" at best. Players should know day 1 for a fact that Intelligence stands on heavy use of utilities that come with a class. But, still, I would welcome some weapon that in early and mid-game is weaker than a shotgun and any kind of automatic weapon. Later a dedicated weapon in Intelligence might become on par with something in very late game.

 

[Adam the Waster]

I've seen a properly upgraded and modded electric baton do incredible damage and crowd control.

Why do we need a next tier upgrade?

To even it out.. and slow the progression 

Why do people want all the stats to play the same?  INT is great, the pipe baton, the junk turrets, the healing and bartering bonuses.  Its a fun class to play by yourself, even better when you are supporting your friends.

But to each their own.

I think it's fine too! Heck once I get my crew I'll probably be intellect 

My main issue is if you fully want to max that build. You got no ranged weapons 

And no tier 3 baton. Aside from that. That's it

 

[Lyote]

Having to use a gun of a different spec may be a disadvantage for your combat abilites. Which is exactly what I am saying, INT is not the strongest combat class, intentionally. If you want a combat heavy class take something else. If you take INT either pay that tax (which will help you in mid/end-game as well, it isn't really wasted if you continue to use that gun) or don't, the difference is there, but there are lots of ways to decrease the risk. Play slower and use spike traps for safety, quest and loot tier 1 POIs, in other words, act like the squishy class you are.

In my group game the INT player could build his first turret on day 5, on the same day I increased AGI to 3 and increased guns from 1 to 2. So if you as the INT player had invested one point into whatever gun you liked as well, until that day 5 you would just miss a few percent of headshot kill percentage you can't rely on for safety and probably have a worse gun while I could craft a quality 4 pipe gun. If you can't handle that measly difference, just avoid INT.

If you want to reply that you are single player and the example doesn't fit, well, in my SP game I invested in a lot more other perks, for example one point into miner69er, farming and wrenching. I didn't even have the points to invest much into my attribute at all and my gun was only a tier 1 pistol because I got lucky with a toilet, which could happen to anyone, including the INT player. Without that my gun would have been less than quality 4 at day 5.

(I don't have any say in this, but for arguments sake No, that tax is there because the INT player is stronger on utility and with that ultimately balanced. Don't want to play a character strong on utility? Then go for something else. 

AFAIK the workbench can be crafted from day 1.

We will see whether TFP reacts. My guess is they are perfectly fine with it as it is, like many players here are who see it just as a challenge. In my view, if they really add a gun to INT they would have to massively nerf all the turrets and the stun baton to not make INT into an overpowered class, something that might sour your happines with late-game INT as well. Even now end-game INT is rather too strong on combat for a supposedly utility class, as you say yourself.

One other suggestion for you: The perk point redistribution potion was largely reduced in price and often can be found in loot as well. If you don't like early-game INT, simply spec into a different attribute and respec when the time is right.

Well at least you agree it's a tax, lol. 
Adding primitive versions of what INT will do later wont change the endgame balance at all. 
INT pre Stun Baton and Junk Turret is an entirely different experience. Its this period that needs some TLC. 
I called out needing the Workbench along with your Tech books to make the Sledge because everyone else gets to make a gun in their pocket, so a primitive Sledge turret also made in ones pocket using Wood, fiber, springs and stone but can only punch directly forward with a terrible RoF would at least allow INT to utilise the Robotics perk immediately, as others get to do with their respective gun perks. 

INT doesn't have a themed ranged experience, unless you count putting down a turret and twiddling your thumbs as an experience, lol
While i am most annoyed at having to pay a tax to get a decent gun, part of my request is motivated by that lack of theme. Any gun you pick is just going have you playing like a gimped version of the associated tree while using it. 

Why not provide INT with a unique ranged option?
Electrical traps are heavily under utilized in general gameplay as theyre all base bound items and typically not a feature in most bases due to the resource sink of maintaining them.

So why not utilize the trap exp on Advanced Engineering, tie a trap effectiveness bonus to Robotics and give INT a trap launcher for its ranged option. 
Firing small deployable, short lived traps at range. Much like Pipe Guns, it'd have a bad reload and RoF, and can even have it only capable of launching primitive traps, necessitating upgrading it to a proper T1 version later to use more advanced traps. 
Since 'utility' is the buzzword for denying a dedicated gun to INT, Keep the traps utility flavored mostly, With damage being a secondary effect on the triggered traps. 
You could have these be anything really. 
Why not have some 'ammo' options for it be things like a deployable beartrap that locks a zombie in place and applies a bleed for a short duration. (Bonus for teamplay if allies couldnt trigger such traps)
Perhaps launching a speaker to continously attract zombies to investigate an area to setup a killbox. 
Basically, small and non recoverable versions of what we typically have as base defense traps. No more difficult to craft than bullets for standard guns with primitive Iron, wood and stone versions to use in the Pipe Gun era. 
Could really get as creative as you want without having them be outright zombie killers. 

You can do a whole lot with the invention/robotics theme that INT has without applying raw power to it. 

 

[meganoth]

Well at least you agree it's a tax, lol. 
Adding primitive versions of what INT will do later wont change the endgame balance at all. 
INT pre Stun Baton and Junk Turret is an entirely different experience. Its this period that needs some TLC. 
I called out needing the Workbench along with your Tech books to make the Sledge because everyone else gets to make a gun in their pocket, so a primitive Sledge turret also made in ones pocket using Wood, fiber, springs and stone but can only punch directly forward with a terrible RoF would at least allow INT to utilise the Robotics perk immediately, as others get to do with their respective gun perks. 

A primitive pusher turret would be enough for you? I could live with that, even though it would remove some uniqeness. That seems to me a different category than a crossbow for example and calling it a "ranged" option can be argumented but is still a stretch.

So why not utilize the trap exp on Advanced Engineering, tie a trap effectiveness bonus to Robotics and give INT a trap launcher for its ranged option. 
Firing small deployable, short lived traps at range. Much like Pipe Guns, it'd have a bad reload and RoF, and can even have it only capable of launching primitive traps, necessitating upgrading it to a proper T1 version later to use more advanced traps. 
Since 'utility' is the buzzword for denying a dedicated gun to INT, Keep the traps utility flavored mostly, With damage being a secondary effect on the triggered traps. 
You could have these be anything really. 
Why not have some 'ammo' options for it be things like a deployable beartrap that locks a zombie in place and applies a bleed for a short duration. (Bonus for teamplay if allies couldnt trigger such traps)
Perhaps launching a speaker to continously attract zombies to investigate an area to setup a killbox. 
Basically, small and non recoverable versions of what we typically have as base defense traps. No more difficult to craft than bullets for standard guns with primitive Iron, wood and stone versions to use in the Pipe Gun era. 
Could really get as creative as you want without having them be outright zombie killers. 

You can do a whole lot with the invention/robotics theme that INT has without applying raw power to it. 

Sure. You won't get any counter argument from me if you want to make INT even more different or distinct. And you got nice ideas there. I would change the trap thrower to a mine thrower though, and this could be a development task nearly as big as the drone because of new mechanics and I can imagine lots of corner cases that have to be found and debugged. So I don't think they'll do that at the moment.

 

[Lyote]

A primitive pusher turret would be enough for you? I could live with that, even though it would remove some uniqeness. That seems to me a different category than a crossbow for example and calling it a "ranged" option can be argumented but is still a stretch.

Sure. You won't get any counter argument from me if you want to make INT even more different or distinct. And you got nice ideas there. I would change the trap thrower to a mine thrower though, and this could be a development task nearly as big as the drone because of new mechanics and I can imagine lots of corner cases that have to be found and debugged. So I don't think they'll do that at the moment.

Primitive Sledge would significantly help to make up for the lack of punch in its unperked gunplay. Primitive Junk Turret in the same vein could be an extra, But i doubt that would fly, bnased on the responses thus far.
First week, are you pulling your pipe gun and unloading on Arlenes? Hell no, You're saving it for that zomdoggo and surprise feral. 

Sledge would let you dance around the turret to give you the breathing room as opposed to the *KILL IT QUICK!* option the other attributes typically use given their stronger gunplay at that stage. 
Fits in with the constant 'but utility!' strikes against having a dedicated gun. Less damage, more crowd control. 

If its not already apparent, I'm quite willing to adapt my suggestions with the responses thus far, this is a discussion afterall. If the result is a better, more flavorful Intellect experience for everyone, not just myself, i'm happy. 

I like Crossbow for INT because it doesn't require much in the way of physical aptitude to utilize one, as opposed to a bow (Going off the flavor descriptions of the INT levels implying the character is physically weak as opposed to say, Strength) and given the construction of the crossbow, an intelligent individual could easily devise a cradle capable of launching objects as well as bolts through tinkering. 
Though i did move away from  crossbows due to progression of the Bow line, with the Compound Bow not being as equal to the Compound Crossbow (May have misremembered its stats from a mod i played somewhere) onto a more dedicated trap launcher weapon. 
Give us the mad scientist build XD 

And of course, I wouldn't be demanding TFP drop everything to rush implementations ... But talking about it and putting ideas out there could lead us to eventually having a better, more flavorful Intellect gameplay without taking away from the gameplay people already like with it. 
If no one says anything, nothing will change. 

 

[Javabean867]

My main issue is if you fully want to max that build. You got no ranged weapons 

And no tier 3 baton. Aside from that. That's it

I hear you.  Although 2 junk turrets spitting lead down range is a site to see lol.  I can't wait to do a int run honestly.  

In a21 I barely felt like I was missing a rnaged weapon, but that's probably because I would toss points into other stats to round out my character. 

 

[BFT2020]

I am doing an Int survivor currently, only at Day 11 but I got my minibike and close to unlocking the first tier of electric traps.

 

[DXTCreations]

as someone who has been going int builds for a while it takes some getting used to what you need to do for the build but its absolutely op even in early game, a stun baton with a repulsor mod and 1 or 2 sledge turrets and you can take on even the strongest hordes with never needing a ranged weapon except to pick off vultures that dont want to come down, once you learn how to position right, stunlock hard targets, use the repulsor to knockback whole groups and use sledges to your advantage you can basically stand in the middle of the road and take very few hits, one of my go to "horde bases" as an int build is the hell in a cell, where basically i make a completely enclosed large cage in a open area with one spot a 3x3 block opening and then stand in there and funnel everything right to me, toss a couple sledges in slightly off to the side to knock some around and i've cleared every single horde night no ranged weapons needed

 

[meganoth]

First week, are you pulling your pipe gun and unloading on Arlenes? Hell no, You're saving it for that zomdoggo and surprise feral. 

Sledge would let you dance around the turret to give you the breathing room as opposed to the *KILL IT QUICK!* option the other attributes typically use given their stronger gunplay at that stage. 

Just a story from my co-op group: When we all got a gun offered as a quest reward, everyone selected the pipe machine gun, not the gun of his attribute. Because of the high fire rate and big magazine that trumps the small increase from a perk point the attribute's weapon did get in the first week. So at least in our group nobody had a better oh-@%$#-weapon than the INT player in the first days, except for the Fortitude player. Who by the way got killed by a surprise feral 

as someone who has been going int builds for a while it takes some getting used to what you need to do for the build but its absolutely op even in early game, a stun baton with a repulsor mod and 1 or 2 sledge turrets and you can take on even the strongest hordes with never needing a ranged weapon except to pick off vultures that dont want to come down, once you learn how to position right, stunlock hard targets, use the repulsor to knockback whole groups and use sledges to your advantage you can basically stand in the middle of the road and take very few hits, one of my go to "horde bases" as an int build is the hell in a cell, where basically i make a completely enclosed large cage in a open area with one spot a 3x3 block opening and then stand in there and funnel everything right to me, toss a couple sledges in slightly off to the side to knock some around and i've cleared every single horde night no ranged weapons needed

The OP is talking about a still earlier phase where you don't have stun baton and sledges. I.e. the first few days. It is actually quite difficult to assess the exact number because in actual gameplay the INT player seems to get either stun baton or turret relatively fast, faster than one would expect. In our co-op game the INT player had both stun baton WITH repulsor mod and a turret long before the first horde night.

 

[BFT2020]

I found using techniques I developed as an agility survivor helps when I play INT survivors.  I kite the zombies as much as possible, but don't have the advantage of DOT from bleeding out.

My current INT playthrough is on Day 13.  My current kit includes a Q5 pipe baton (no mods) with a primitive bow (no mods), a Q1 toilet pistol (extended mag) and Q4 pipe rifle (scope).  I think I am at Q4 sledge turret, so close to unlocking stun baton.  Working in the burnt biome for Trader Jen on T2 quests now.  I haven't put any perks into ranged weapons yet (even the first level).

I did recently a T2 quest for Jen (Infestation quest at the Cozy 8 Motel - I think that is the POI name) and had to deal with some ferals.  I didn't stand up to them, just started to kite the zombies.  Took down one feral with the pistol and damaged another one before I ran out of 9 mm, then finished it off with the pipe baton since I knew it would have been low HP.  The only surprised I had was a feral Big Mama that showed up, so I ended up kiting her by going between floors and taking shots at her with my pipe rifle.

I also don't drop down into rooms through holes in the ceiling / roof if I can't be sure I have an escape route.  In those circumstances, I make my own entrance.

This is why I like playing INT so much.  You have this disadvantage that you have to overcome, but not in the same way of someone that specializes in ranged combat.

 

[Lyote]

Just a story from my co-op group: When we all got a gun offered as a quest reward, everyone selected the pipe machine gun, not the gun of his attribute. Because of the high fire rate and big magazine that trumps the small increase from a perk point the attribute's weapon did get in the first week. So at least in our group nobody had a better oh-@%$#-weapon than the INT player in the first days, except for the Fortitude player. Who by the way got killed by a surprise feral 

The OP is talking about a still earlier phase where you don't have stun baton and sledges. I.e. the first few days. It is actually quite difficult to assess the exact number because in actual gameplay the INT player seems to get either stun baton or turret relatively fast, faster than one would expect. In our co-op game the INT player had both stun baton WITH repulsor mod and a turret long before the first horde night.

Lets be fair, they did that because the Pipe MG is busted compared to the other Pipe guns lol, TFP badly need to address Pipe Guns to bring a bit of parity there. 

And yeah, this 1.0 release has been a hilarious tale of seeing youtuber playthroughs getting Stun Batons out of POI random loot by day 3. 
Meanwhile, in my own playthrough, I was on a Pipe Baton for the first 20 hours of my 1.0 run lol. 
But not to worry, I had a cement mixer by first horde night! >_>
At least my front door could tank the waves while i slogged through all the new HP values with the Pipe Baton and array of random pipe guns, lol.
Its either boom or bust. 
You luck into an early Stun Baton and Turret in loot before you can even craft a T3 Pipe Baton, Or you slog through all the required books for hours and hours until it finally becomes craftable. 
The former is amazing. The latter is a terrible experience. And its kind of unique (In the worst possible way) to INT because of how important the Stun Baton and Turrets are to the specs functionality. 
The other attributes have a nice gradient curve to their progression while INT is dead flat until you get the toys, at which point the line just goes straight vertical, lol.

 

[Adam the Waster]

Lets be fair, they did that because the Pipe MG is busted compared to the other Pipe guns lol, TFP badly need to address Pipe Guns to bring a bit of parity there. 

And yeah, this 1.0 release has been a hilarious tale of seeing youtuber playthroughs getting Stun Batons out of POI random loot by day 3. 
Meanwhile, in my own playthrough, I was on a Pipe Baton for the first 20 hours of my 1.0 run lol. 
But not to worry, I had a cement mixer by first horde night! >_>
At least my front door could tank the waves while i slogged through all the new HP values with the Pipe Baton and array of random pipe guns, lol.
Its either boom or bust. 
You luck into an early Stun Baton and Turret in loot before you can even craft a T3 Pipe Baton, Or you slog through all the required books for hours and hours until it finally becomes craftable. 
The former is amazing. The latter is a terrible experience. And its kind of unique (In the worst possible way) to INT because of how important the Stun Baton and Turrets are to the specs functionality. 
The other attributes have a nice gradient curve to their progression while INT is dead flat until you get the toys, at which point the line just goes straight vertical, lol.

Agreed the pipe guns are broken most people get the mg

I think maybe after 3 shots or something you need to crank it. Would make it more crappy. 

Pipe pistol isn't too bad but the worst is the rifle by far

Agreed the pipe guns are broken most people get the mg

I think maybe after 3 shots or something you need to crank it. Would make it more crappy. 

Pipe pistol isn't too bad but the worst is the rifle by far

That and maybe increase costs like add mechanical parts with the crafting 

 

[weldabar]

Also why does v1.0 look like there is some grey dust filter over all the graphics? anyone else notice this or is it just me? it looks kinda.. dusty? washed out? I don't know how to put it correctly but it just looks wrong compared to a21.

You're not the only one. The zeds look like blurry mud, and not like actual living (undead) beings. I hypothesize that it is less taxing for consoles.

 

[meganoth]

Lets be fair, they did that because the Pipe MG is busted compared to the other Pipe guns lol, TFP badly need to address Pipe Guns to bring a bit of parity there. 

If the Pipe MG is so good compared to the others then the INT player isn't alone in having to overcome the initial sorrow about the own gun. That is my point and you seem to agree.

And yeah, this 1.0 release has been a hilarious tale of seeing youtuber playthroughs getting Stun Batons out of POI random loot by day 3. 
Meanwhile, in my own playthrough, I was on a Pipe Baton for the first 20 hours of my 1.0 run lol. 
But not to worry, I had a cement mixer by first horde night! >_>
At least my front door could tank the waves while i slogged through all the new HP values with the Pipe Baton and array of random pipe guns, lol.
Its either boom or bust. 
You luck into an early Stun Baton and Turret in loot before you can even craft a T3 Pipe Baton, Or you slog through all the required books for hours and hours until it finally becomes craftable. 
The former is amazing. The latter is a terrible experience. And its kind of unique (In the worst possible way) to INT because of how important the Stun Baton and Turrets are to the specs functionality. 

"Oh, you want a guarantee?" There is no guarantee in a survival game. Luck and bad luck are the ying and yang of luck based games.

 

[cl0udburst]

I think maybe after 3 shots or something you need to crank it. Would make it more crappy. 

Pipe pistol isn't too bad but the worst is the rifle by far

The crank idea is great - none of the other pipe guns can automatically cycle and it's conceivable that the super jury-rigged design doesn't match up well with a reliable self-loading action - think about the fact that the other three (breech-loading rifle and shotgun, double action revolver) became popular and were perfected around the last half of the 19th century, but a reliable fully-automatic self-loader wasn't truly viable until the BAR (1918) at best - maybe fortitude should be starting with a focus on the fists and get rid of pipe MG entirely in favor of a BAR-Tactical Assault Rifle-M60 level 1-2-3 progression. That way, you get a big late-game payoff in firepower but have to cope with worse weapon handling and lower ammo count early. (anyone else think the Tactical AR feels like a very minor improvement over the AK?)

 

[Lyote]

If the Pipe MG is so good compared to the others then the INT player isn't alone in having to overcome the initial sorrow about the own gun. That is my point and you seem to agree.

"Oh, you want a guarantee?" There is no guarantee in a survival game. Luck and bad luck are the ying and yang of luck based games.

That just means we agree that Pipe MG should be brought into line with the other Pipe Guns so it isn't just the defacto best choice for everyone XD

And no, i don't want guarantees. 
I want a progression curve, rather than a progression right angle lol
 

The crank idea is great - none of the other pipe guns can automatically cycle and it's conceivable that the super jury-rigged design doesn't match up well with a reliable self-loading action - think about the fact that the other three (breech-loading rifle and shotgun, double action revolver) became popular and were perfected around the last half of the 19th century, but a reliable fully-automatic self-loader wasn't truly viable until the BAR (1918) at best - maybe fortitude should be starting with a focus on the fists and get rid of pipe MG entirely in favor of a BAR-Tactical Assault Rifle-M60 level 1-2-3 progression. That way, you get a big late-game payoff in firepower but have to cope with worse weapon handling and lower ammo count early. (anyone else think the Tactical AR feels like a very minor improvement over the AK?)

I wonder what effect on balance would come of reducing the fire rate and changing the reload to be a manual load of 1 round at a time up to the max. 
Or we could throw Pipe Guns in the bin entirely and just have a 'Scrap Gun' that uses plain iron as ammo that inherits its headshot and dismemeber benefits from whichever Attribute level is highest, but no benefit from gun perks XD
Though discussion on pipe gun balance probably warrants its own thread XD

 

[BFT2020]

That just means we agree that Pipe MG should be brought into line with the other Pipe Guns so it isn't just the defacto best choice for everyone XD

That statement is not true.  I am on Day 19 of my current Int playthrough and I have not had a pipe mg at all.  I have a Q4 pipe rifle and a pipe pistol before I found a toilet pistol.  I was even rocking a pair of pipe shotguns before I found my first Q1 double shotty.

Not everyone plays the game only seeking out the “best” choices.