PC If TFP wanted natural progression might I suggest they bring back "spam crafting"

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

As far as I know this is the first step to establish areas and POIs with different gamestages.

For example you go to a factory and this POI has a gamestage bonus of e.g. +50, which means you get loot that is better by +50 gamestages than what you get in the base POIs but you also have to deal with enemies that would show up 50 gamestages later.

There are also areas with different radiation levels planned so that you have to prepare yourself when entering an area with higher radiation.

That explains a looooot. Last horde night a demolisher had a rad suit in the loot. I was wondering why that was still in the game. I can see why they would have to scrap the old progression system then. Then again darkness falls plays exactly like that, and it is heavy on the LBD system. I dunno, early access game is early access game. I'd rather see them break things to fix later, then abandon a game like what happened with starforge and interstellar marines. 

 

[Roland]

Why did they move away from the old system? is there a thread on that? did they ever give a reason for that? 

Perks were the original plan. Books and schematics started out as placeholders for perks. When they started adding an experience system in Alpha 11 there were no perks. There were books and a simple method of advancing the quality of tools and weapons by crafting them. There was even a +/- 50 randomizer on what you crafted so that sometimes it was good and sometimes bad. 
 

There was a lot of iterating and experimenting that went on from Alpha 11 onward but LBD consistently declined as perks became more dominant. A11 was wholly an basic and rudimentary LBD system but by Alpha 16 crafting xp was completely abandoned and LBD was limited to skills whereas the perks became more dominant than ever. Finally, the last remnants of LBD disappeared in A17. 
 

The developers were always committed to perks. They experimented with LBD but it was not something they decided to go with. Perks were shown in their kickstarter mockups.  
 

It’s understandable that some players are going to have different preferences than the developers and really feel that for them the system that the devs dabbled in for a time was better than the one they wanted and planned to do. 
 

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

and as such gives you more moments of disappointment or joy, more emotion. 

Right now it's like opening a can of beans and finding beans inside. It's not a thrill, no excitment anymore, so I understand why people don't like this tight relationship as it currently is. 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

So what if every item in a poi had a random chance to be a next tier item? or had a random chance to summon a horde? 

 

[SylenThunder]

None come to mind...the best hybrid LBD skill point system I've seen recently (apart from 7d2d) is bannerlord: mount and blade.  Last I played it was still very much unbalanced, especially at the higher game stage.

Increasing attritubes in that game would increase your hardcap on certain LBD skills while increasing focus points were ways to increase specific LBD skills faster (e.g. think multiplier).

Different tyoenof game though but an interesting hybrid implementation.

Yeah, I'd have to agree this is the closest I could think of as well.  Ark has an interesting system, but it's also very similar to the current system in 7 Days. It's just got two layers to it.

 

[hotpoon]

I strong and totally disagree with you! Points spent without any direct benefit are WASTED points. And NO, I dont use shotguns, I dont like shotguns. I play as a grenadier using explosives, rocket launcher and m60. The atribute system is very unfair to me.

If you like mining and shotguns, then it is a great deal to you, cause EVERY single point you spent in your preferred tree will give you direct benefits. But others players like me who enjoy mining, but playing with other weapons than shotguns, will have a very slow progression. The atribute system is OK if you like play with "skill kits", but not ok if you dont like the pre made character sets.

The old LBD system with pre-requirement skills and levels was great. You can build your character like you want without need spent any useless points. And in the old versions of the game, like A-15 and A-16, I got myself more time playing with low tier and quality items before got some high end stuff. Now with this atribute system, I got end stuff very fast.

And yes, no matter what you say, I will tell you again: every point I spent, I want direct benefit, it is not fair to me be  punished just cause I dont want follow the pre made skills set.

I so agree with this.  All the perks I want are from perception, but I don't want to use a javelin.  I want to use a club.  So If I build my player how I want to, I'm always going to be underpowered compared to those who are happy to be pidgeonholed into one of the 5 builds. 

It's unfair. I really don't see why they need to have weapons linked to attribute points. LBD for weapons would be perfect.

 

[RipClaw]

I so agree with this.  All the perks I want are from perception, but I don't want to use a javelin.

Let me guess, the perk you're interested in is Lucky Looter.

Lucky Looter's not as powerful as it used to be in the early game. It adds between 5% and 25% to the current gamestage, which doesn't have much effect at the beginning of the game. A gamestage of 10 becomes a loot gamestage of 10.5 with one point in Lucky Looter and 12.5 with Lucky Looter maxed out. Only when you are higher in the gamestage the effect of Lucky Looter becomes noticeable. Then a gamestage of 100 becomes a loot gamestage of 125 with Lucky Looter maxed out.

At the beginning the Eye Candy and the Lucky Looter Goggles are much more powerful since they add directly to the gamestage. The Eye Candy adds 5 to the gamestage so a gamestage of 10 becomes a loot gamestage of 15 and the Lucky Looter Goggles can also give up to 5 gamestages which means if you use the Eye Candy and the Lucky Looter Goggles then you will have a loot gamestage of up to 20.
 

 

[Galifrey1965]

Yes because it was totally natural to run in circles on spikes jumping up and down using bandages while crafting 5000 stone axes. /sarcasm (Though there were enough people that actually did that!)

And to be totally fair, at the level where you're getting blunderbusses in safes, is a little bit early for cracking open safes. You guys min/maxing the game and going to the high-prize loot early on instead of attempting to progress naturally is part of the problem here. Early game should be about basic hunting and gathering. Not looting the crap out of POI's.

So we just throw meat at the zombies on Day 7?

 

[RipClaw]

So we just throw meat at the zombies on Day 7?

No. Even primitive weapons can be effective on day 7 if the base is designed for them. You don't need an shotgun, pistol or a AK-47 for the day 7 horde.

For example, I fought the day 7 horde with a stone sledgehammer and a blunderbuss. The base design was a simple hatch base. Most of the base was flagstone and some parts I upgraded to cobblestone. The hatches were iron reinforced wooden hatches. All I needed could be looted from POIs or harvested with stone tools.

The design that JaWoodle used for his day 21 horde in his current series could be used in the same way for the day 7 horde but with flagstone and cobblestone instead of concrete.
 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Then there are some other logistical aspects that i think got missed. What makes shotguns op? they are  ammo that is not brass dependent. There are pois where you can get tons of paper, there are things that drop paper, so for the logistics of a shot gun, it's an ammo that you can make vs the bullets that will one day run out of brass. Arrows require feathers, but those are under the agility tree so if you do run out of brass for pistols, you can still have a very good weapon. 

Shotguns have other drawbacks, like really short range. I noticed the pump shotgun has a range on only 5 blocks, when i realized during bloodmoon i can only shoot zombies attacking our base right below me. Guess what: The wall from where i shot down was 5 blocks high...

And the slugs also require brass.

And brass doesn't run out, you could melt dukes into brass since ever. So selling items to a trader or doing their quests is an indefinite source of brass. The only thing on brass is: You can't go into a mine and harvest tons of it in a short time.

So we just throw meat at the zombies on Day 7?

What weapons you find depends on your gamestage. Bloodmoon does also. So if your gamestage on day 7 is still so low that you are not able to find even a pistol, the bloodmoon will be weak too and can also been fought with bows, blunderbuss or even just melee.

Imho that's an interesting aspect of the new system. It makes you even more to really fight in the beginning but it doesn't become unbeatable, too. 

Finding a gun very early was really OP, as there were no hard Z spawns anywhere and you could almost single headshot everything with just a pistol.

 

[RipClaw]

And the slugs also require brass.

No they don't since A18. The Slugs need polymers, gunpowder and bullet tips.
 

 

[Raestloz]

Let me guess, the perk you're interested in is Lucky Looter.

As much as it's true, I like roleplaying as a looter and lucky looter is part of that, along with scavenger and lockpicker (yes yes they're useless, I know, I still love 'em)
I personally play as pistol toting looter just scavenging the remnants of civilization. I have to spread my skill points to support that playstyle. I don't particularly like the current system, much as I understand its benefits.
Personally, I'd abolish the attribute system altogether and just leave perks. All attribute does is number game and perk gatekeeping, I'd rather the perks are free to take, gated only by the requirement of getting up its own ranks. Each combat skill needs their own primitive weaponry to allow someone to specialize in it as early as possible, and replace those stone axes

 

[Galifrey1965]

No. Even primitive weapons can be effective on day 7 if the base is designed for them. You don't need an shotgun, pistol or a AK-47 for the day 7 horde.

For example, I fought the day 7 horde with a stone sledgehammer and a blunderbuss. The base design was a simple hatch base. Most of the base was flagstone and some parts I upgraded to cobblestone. The hatches were iron reinforced wooden hatches. All I needed could be looted from POIs or harvested with stone tools.

The design that JaWoodle used for his day 21 horde in his current series could be used in the same way for the day 7 horde but with flagstone and cobblestone instead of concrete.
 

I would rather blow my ears off with a blunderbuss than have to listen to ANYTHING jawoodle puts out, especially as he is all about cheesing the AI which is lame. I always use a converted POI and no cheesing. 

Luckily I can play and power level

 

[RipClaw]

I would rather blow my ears off with a blunderbuss than have to listen to ANYTHING jawoodle puts out, especially as he is all about cheesing the AI which is lame. I always use a converted POI and no cheesing. 

In fact, this base is not a cheese base at all. I know he uses cheese bases a lot but this one is legitimate.

You don't need a cheese base for the day seven horde. For example the hatch base I mentioned is not a cheese base but a legitimate melee base. And if you don't like close combat then you just build a filled in 5x5 tower with the first 3 rows upgraded to cobblestone. Multiple rows of spikes and barbed wire fences and you have a base that can be used with a bow.

In general I don't like POI bases. I prefer to build my bases from scratch. It gives me more control.

 

[Galifrey1965]

In fact, this base is not a cheese base at all. I know he uses cheese bases a lot but this one is legitimate.

You don't need a cheese base for the day seven horde. For example the hatch base I mentioned is not a cheese base but a legitimate melee base. And if you don't like close combat then you just build a filled in 5x5 tower with the first 3 rows upgraded to cobblestone. Multiple rows of spikes and barbed wire fences and you have a base that can be used with a bow.

In general I don't like POI bases. I prefer to build my bases from scratch. It gives me more control.

Hey if you want to throw away XP with spike traps and Barbed wire, knock yourself out. Like I say, I wouldn't watch ANYTHING jawoodle puts out as I have misophonia and would rather blow my own ears off than listen to him. Although I believe Kage848 used the same kind of 2 row design.

My base works fine and I can manage without spikes and barb wire thanks  I also had a junk turret and AK by day 7(tier 2 quests and trader purchases), so no need to cheese or use xp wasting traps  

I play Nomad with 64 Horde settings so day 7 is a bit easy now compared to what I am used to. I usually play run and gun on war3zuk mod

 

[RipClaw]

Hey if you want to throw away XP with spike traps and Barbed wire, knock yourself out.

Well, that's my advantage. I don't care about the XP from the horde. I get a lot of XP by building and collecting resources. And that's the beauty of the game. You are not committed to playing only one way.

Although I believe Kage848 used the same kind of 2 row design.

If you watch the videos of Kage848 you have already seen the hatch base in action. He used it in his "No more room in hell series".

I play Nomad with 64 Horde settings so day 7 is a bit easy now compared to what I am used to. I usually play run and gun on war3zuk mod

That explains a lot. I know that war3zuk is already working on the version for A19. I am curious if he will take over the lot progression or create his own lot table.

I do not like mods in general. They are too gun-heavy for me. Just as if someone wants tear out the Sandbox Survival part from the game and turn it into a Loot Shooter.
 

 

[Biscoitoso]

Every point you spend does give a direct benefit. It pays the required cost for Miner69 and Motherlode. 
 

1 point for tier 1

3 points more for tier 2

4 points more for tier 3
etc

It’s the direct cost for the benefit you want. Instead of the level 2 perk itself costing 3 points, you pay two for strength plus 1 for Miner69 tier 2. 
 

I disagree and the facts disagree with you. You said every point have direct benefits, but it is only true if you use the weapon governed by the tree in question.

To reach Mother Lode 5 I need Strenght 7, it will cost 8 skill points to me, 8 player levels, if I dont use clubs, sldgehammers and shotguns, I dont will have any benefit from these points. You said these points are part of the cost of the ability, but if that is true, why my friend playing with shotgun and clubs is more powerfull than me?

The truth is: TFP created pre-character builds, they admitted it themselves, they said they wanted to give every atribute branch, some independence from the others.

But that independence is based on the use of pre-determined weapons who are linked to skills what are inside a tree. If you dont like the pre-made kit, then that "independence" falls by apart. The logic of independent attribute branch only work if the player want to follow it, if you dont want, you dont will see any independence. And if you dont follow the branch, every point spent in that attribute is a wasted point in comparison to the player who follow the schedule.

If TFP want work with something like that, it will better if they introduce class system to the game, like Darkness Falls has.

If they still want work with this system, then better they add some direct benefits to every single attribute point like A-17 has. And on top of that, I suggest weapons have its own branch, so you can play as a smart guy with pistols or with a strong guy with sniper rifle.

Let me guess, the perk you're interested in is Lucky Looter.

Lucky Looter's not as powerful as it used to be in the early game. It adds between 5% and 25% to the current gamestage, which doesn't have much effect at the beginning of the game. A gamestage of 10 becomes a loot gamestage of 10.5 with one point in Lucky Looter and 12.5 with Lucky Looter maxed out. Only when you are higher in the gamestage the effect of Lucky Looter becomes noticeable. Then a gamestage of 100 becomes a loot gamestage of 125 with Lucky Looter maxed out.

At the beginning the Eye Candy and the Lucky Looter Goggles are much more powerful since they add directly to the gamestage. The Eye Candy adds 5 to the gamestage so a gamestage of 10 becomes a loot gamestage of 15 and the Lucky Looter Goggles can also give up to 5 gamestages which means if you use the Eye Candy and the Lucky Looter Goggles then you will have a loot gamestage of up to 20.
 

Dude, the point here is not what skills we want, it is about combos. I dont want the combo: mining + shotgun, I want configure my own combo and hotpoon same as me. We dont want have to use jevelins, just because they are in the same tree as Lucky Looter and Scavenger.

 

[Boidster]

I want configure my own ... hotpoon

Don't we all, man, don't we all...

 

[Biscoitoso]

Don't we all, man, don't we all...

I am talking about me and the ones who agree with me. And on top of that, my ideal system of skills dont slow down your gameplay. But the actual system slow down my gameplay.

I hope some modder create a overhaul to the skills as soon as possible. Something with the LBD system mixed with perks.

 

[RipClaw]

Dude, the point here is not what skills we want, it is about combos. I dont want the combo: mining + shotgun, I want configure my own combo and hotpoon same as me. We dont want have to use jevelins, just because they are in the same tree as Lucky Looter and Scavenger.

I'd rather have my own combo as well, but as long as the game is like it is you can only try to get the most out of the combos you have available and that match your preferences the most.

My point was that you don't need Lucky Looter in the early game because it hardly has any effect anyway. You can save the points for the skills you need to get stronger with the weapons you prefer.

 

[Biscoitoso]

I'd rather have my own combo as well, but as long as the game is like it is you can only try to get the most out of the combos you have available and that match your preferences the most.

My point was that you don't need Lucky Looter in the early game because it hardly has any effect anyway. You can save the points for the skills you need to get stronger with the weapons you prefer.

Agree, but Perception not only have Lucky Looter, it has Savage Operations, and skills focused in hunting.