PC If TFP wanted natural progression might I suggest they bring back "spam crafting"
- Thread starter ArcadeAndrew115
- Start date
also theres also another LBD thread up right now.
RestInPieces
New member
And diminishing returns + sensible item economy (e.g. reduced scrap material yield), would have made even more sense and solved that grindy nightmare that was spam crafting.
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Theodryck
New member
void rant (CHAR_DATA * ch, char * argument)
{
char buf [MAX_STRING_LENGTH];
char message [MAX_STRING_LENGTH];
while ( alpha_19 != fun )
{
str_cpy(message, "Here's the thing: so far I'm reading a lot of hate towards Alpha 19 game play mechanics. You have a few people who'll defend their beloved Pimps to the last with excuses like "Git Gud" or "You don't like a challenge" when none of the complaints have anything to do with how hard or challenging the game is. It's mainly about how grindy and boring things have gotten. Example: What's the point of going out and exploring when all you're going to find are stone tools in unopened tool crates (For....reasons). Yes, I often go to my local Home Depot and Lowe's for their fine selection of stone tools. So now nobody goes out and explores this beautiful new HD world because there's no point in looting box after box of stone axes, empty jars, and stone shovels. After your GS gets high enough, sure. But until then, why risk wasting precious POIs on crap loot?
Then there's the fun part of grinding through endless hours of rapid food and water consumption and no stamina while trying to do even the most menial tasks. So, yay, I guess? So you can either go after the terrible loot, or stand in a shallow pit while you wheeze and gasp from trying to mine one block. Memo to The Fun Pimps: This is not fun! Listen to what we are telling you! The overwhelming vast majority of people really do not like alpha 19 at all. The visual changes are great, but the game play changes are terrible and often feel lazy and vindictive; and at some points, even feel downright mean (such as getting mauled by 100000 birds after falling from my spot during the horde night on day 21 and not being able to run around to get back up to my perch. So if you fall off your base, that's it. You're just dead. Deal with it. Game over, man! Game over!)") ;
}
sprintf( buf, "%d/n/r", message );
send_to_char (buf, ch );
tail_chain();
return;
}
{
char buf [MAX_STRING_LENGTH];
char message [MAX_STRING_LENGTH];
while ( alpha_19 != fun )
{
str_cpy(message, "Here's the thing: so far I'm reading a lot of hate towards Alpha 19 game play mechanics. You have a few people who'll defend their beloved Pimps to the last with excuses like "Git Gud" or "You don't like a challenge" when none of the complaints have anything to do with how hard or challenging the game is. It's mainly about how grindy and boring things have gotten. Example: What's the point of going out and exploring when all you're going to find are stone tools in unopened tool crates (For....reasons). Yes, I often go to my local Home Depot and Lowe's for their fine selection of stone tools. So now nobody goes out and explores this beautiful new HD world because there's no point in looting box after box of stone axes, empty jars, and stone shovels. After your GS gets high enough, sure. But until then, why risk wasting precious POIs on crap loot?
Then there's the fun part of grinding through endless hours of rapid food and water consumption and no stamina while trying to do even the most menial tasks. So, yay, I guess? So you can either go after the terrible loot, or stand in a shallow pit while you wheeze and gasp from trying to mine one block. Memo to The Fun Pimps: This is not fun! Listen to what we are telling you! The overwhelming vast majority of people really do not like alpha 19 at all. The visual changes are great, but the game play changes are terrible and often feel lazy and vindictive; and at some points, even feel downright mean (such as getting mauled by 100000 birds after falling from my spot during the horde night on day 21 and not being able to run around to get back up to my perch. So if you fall off your base, that's it. You're just dead. Deal with it. Game over, man! Game over!)") ;
}
sprintf( buf, "%d/n/r", message );
send_to_char (buf, ch );
tail_chain();
return;
}
Last edited by a moderator:
Onarr
New member
LBD is not a good fit for crafting, but more for weapon skills and mining. Spam crafting does not make sense. If you make 100 stone axes you wont be able to make better iron axe or anything different.
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It kind of makes sense, in a practice makes perfect logic but the problem is that we had too many things grouped up together and gone full Skyrim.
For example it makes sense that if you spamcraft stone axes they become better but it doesnt make sense that you spamcrafting stone axes makes you able to create steel pixaxes.
Skyrim has learning by doing. What happens is people just grind the hell out of the parts they dislike
Sneaking, crafting, jumping, enchanting, etc. People simply refuse to do things they don't like, and the whole experience is best summed as: "Ugh, when can I go back to doing fun bits?"
Experience system allows people to do whatever they like to do, and shore up the parts they don't like, which supports the parts they do like. For what it's worth, as much as it doesn't make sense for someone to get good at gardening while blowing undead brains off, it makes sure people are doing what they want to do, not doing what they have to do
Because they've already done the latter during work hours
Sneaking, crafting, jumping, enchanting, etc. People simply refuse to do things they don't like, and the whole experience is best summed as: "Ugh, when can I go back to doing fun bits?"
Experience system allows people to do whatever they like to do, and shore up the parts they don't like, which supports the parts they do like. For what it's worth, as much as it doesn't make sense for someone to get good at gardening while blowing undead brains off, it makes sure people are doing what they want to do, not doing what they have to do
Because they've already done the latter during work hours
Yeah kinda miss it too. There was always this grass and stone grind so you had something to do the first few nights, you were really busy! Now a days I tend to just sit around after sorting a bit waiting for morning. Haven't played 19 yet so no idea how it is with new lighting.
n2n1
Well-known member
The "Grind" problem is just an "cause"/excuse to remove the LBD.
Grind's problem could be solved easily.
And to be honest, it wasn't a problem per se. Who wanted to grind - they grinded and it was their game - they were happy.
Who would not want to grind not grinded , and this wasn't a problem for them.
Now we have the same XP-grind, just is no choice now. Things have become more monotonous and boring. Looteeer-Shooteeer
..."all as in Aaa games".
Grind's problem could be solved easily.
And to be honest, it wasn't a problem per se. Who wanted to grind - they grinded and it was their game - they were happy.
Who would not want to grind not grinded , and this wasn't a problem for them.
Now we have the same XP-grind, just is no choice now. Things have become more monotonous and boring. Looteeer-Shooteeer
..."all as in Aaa games".
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Xtrakicking
New member
In paper, LBD sounds like an amazing way for players to progress, but in reality the system was really easy to exploit and it ended up being a mess with all players crafting 500 stone axes the first day, reaching maximum quality level in tools by the end of it. It even became sort of a famous gimmick in the community of the game.
I'm not against crafted gear being gated behind player level. It might be a bit grindy due to XP gaining and requiring more materials the better the quality is, but it's not all that bad imo. I am against the way loot progression works now, though. Luckily, there are more iterations to come.
I'm not against crafted gear being gated behind player level. It might be a bit grindy due to XP gaining and requiring more materials the better the quality is, but it's not all that bad imo. I am against the way loot progression works now, though. Luckily, there are more iterations to come.
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pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
@n2n1
So sitting in the interface of a forge watching things getting crafted in it was better? That is what happened with LBD. On MP servers you wouldn´t meet anyone during the night, they all were sitting in their bases, either spamcrafting or running around their campfires in circles to get atlethics up. And how you gonna stop that running around the campfire while still maintaining learning by doing when you actually run anywhere? And that´s only one example why LBD is so hard to do without a high chance of exploiting it.
No matter what they do, it will be exploited. And that will kill public MP for people who refuse to run in circles the whole night.
So sitting in the interface of a forge watching things getting crafted in it was better? That is what happened with LBD. On MP servers you wouldn´t meet anyone during the night, they all were sitting in their bases, either spamcrafting or running around their campfires in circles to get atlethics up. And how you gonna stop that running around the campfire while still maintaining learning by doing when you actually run anywhere? And that´s only one example why LBD is so hard to do without a high chance of exploiting it.
No matter what they do, it will be exploited. And that will kill public MP for people who refuse to run in circles the whole night.
Adam the Waster
Well-known member
is that snowdog under her?Laz Man said:
*Your Light Armor Skill Has Increased by +1 Skill Points*
My humble opinion:
*LBD was mostly a good thing. We played as a group, and durings the nights, we crafted stuff, and we all got good at specific things. Sure, it was not optimal for everything, but for crafting I feel it worked pretty well.
* What they did with the perks + books was very good! The books keep scavenging interesting and rewarding, while not halting the game due do the never-appearing minibike book.
* What I miss the MOST is the weapon part system with 100-600 level. To constantly find better parts and swap them out to get a better and better gun, I found very engaging and rewarding. I wish I could have this together with the modules system.
* The 100-600 level system worked pretty good with the combination of deterioration when repairing. Now when I find a lvl5 or 6 weapon, I can repair it forever without any degradation, and I dont need to find anything better.
*LBD was mostly a good thing. We played as a group, and durings the nights, we crafted stuff, and we all got good at specific things. Sure, it was not optimal for everything, but for crafting I feel it worked pretty well.
* What they did with the perks + books was very good! The books keep scavenging interesting and rewarding, while not halting the game due do the never-appearing minibike book.
* What I miss the MOST is the weapon part system with 100-600 level. To constantly find better parts and swap them out to get a better and better gun, I found very engaging and rewarding. I wish I could have this together with the modules system.
* The 100-600 level system worked pretty good with the combination of deterioration when repairing. Now when I find a lvl5 or 6 weapon, I can repair it forever without any degradation, and I dont need to find anything better.
Jarod_Silverstar
New member
To take my turn at the dead horse as well...
It seems that a combination of LBD, Skills/perks and schematics might be a decent balance to the game.
LBD would be focused on basic skills; like running, melee, archery, mining, cooking, sneaking and a few others.
Skill points/perks would be for bonus items and special skills. Iron gut, healing and choosing a character progression path.
Schematics would the instructions on how to craft items. Reading multiple schematics will increase your quality level to make things better.
An example of this in the defense world. LBD would cover skills like Dodge (avoiding attacks) and Pain Tolerance (take less damage when hit). Skill points would allow you to chose a branch of armors either light or heavy and gain the ability using less parts or more durability. Schematics teach you how to craft the various pieces and additional ones on that piece increase your quality level.
It seems that a combination of LBD, Skills/perks and schematics might be a decent balance to the game.
LBD would be focused on basic skills; like running, melee, archery, mining, cooking, sneaking and a few others.
Skill points/perks would be for bonus items and special skills. Iron gut, healing and choosing a character progression path.
Schematics would the instructions on how to craft items. Reading multiple schematics will increase your quality level to make things better.
An example of this in the defense world. LBD would cover skills like Dodge (avoiding attacks) and Pain Tolerance (take less damage when hit). Skill points would allow you to chose a branch of armors either light or heavy and gain the ability using less parts or more durability. Schematics teach you how to craft the various pieces and additional ones on that piece increase your quality level.
n2n1
Well-known member
In A17 i saw a code that prevented giving XP if it was repeated many times
.Maybe.... to be honest, i've never played MP
.But still - I think there is nothing wrong with this.
The problem is that they didn't make perks an interesting thing. If this were a good thing, no one would regret the loss of LBD.
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Kalen
New member
The way I would've done it is to limit how many skill points you could gain in a length of time. For example, if you could only gain 2 points per game day, once you got those points it wouldn't be beneficial to spam any more. This would also produce the desired (by TFP) effect of slowing down the game.
Roland
Community Moderator
I enjoyed the LBD system but I wasn’t a speedster so I played the game pretty much the same way I do now.
Playing the game with a focus on survival objectives instead of leveling up makes the game feel more natural regardless of the system.
Someone focused on leveling is going to grind mining beyond the actual resources they want or need. They’ll just keep mining and watching that progress bar fill in. If you enjoyed mining to that degree then LBD was a great system.
In the current system mining might not be the most efficient way to level up mining. So someone focused on leveling up will grind killing zombies and then use the earned points to improve their mining and complain it is unnatural.
But if you are focusing on survival goals and doing a variety of activities: killing zombies when necessary, building and upgrading blocks, mining, questing, etc then your points build up from multiple sources. If you wanted to you could even intentionally do a mining session right before spending the point on mining to get the feeling of learn by doing.
What’s the main downside? Speed. It always comes down to speed. Why should I do a variety of activities consistent with survival goals when just focusing on one best activity will get me leveled up faster?
I’m not against a return of LBD. For the most part it wouldn’t change how I play. I like the current system as well. Both are fine for survival goal oriented players. For speedsters LBD is obviously more interesting because you are forced to do a variety of grinds to improve each stat rather than finding the one best activity and only do that one to improve everything. Only having one activity is more boring and even though there are other xp earning activities they aren’t as fast so must be passed over.
Playing the game with a focus on survival objectives instead of leveling up makes the game feel more natural regardless of the system.
Someone focused on leveling is going to grind mining beyond the actual resources they want or need. They’ll just keep mining and watching that progress bar fill in. If you enjoyed mining to that degree then LBD was a great system.
In the current system mining might not be the most efficient way to level up mining. So someone focused on leveling up will grind killing zombies and then use the earned points to improve their mining and complain it is unnatural.
But if you are focusing on survival goals and doing a variety of activities: killing zombies when necessary, building and upgrading blocks, mining, questing, etc then your points build up from multiple sources. If you wanted to you could even intentionally do a mining session right before spending the point on mining to get the feeling of learn by doing.
What’s the main downside? Speed. It always comes down to speed. Why should I do a variety of activities consistent with survival goals when just focusing on one best activity will get me leveled up faster?
I’m not against a return of LBD. For the most part it wouldn’t change how I play. I like the current system as well. Both are fine for survival goal oriented players. For speedsters LBD is obviously more interesting because you are forced to do a variety of grinds to improve each stat rather than finding the one best activity and only do that one to improve everything. Only having one activity is more boring and even though there are other xp earning activities they aren’t as fast so must be passed over.
Liesel Weppen
New member
I'd disagree. Because LBD was the way to get better tools, you NEEDED to spamcraft, or you've never got better tools.
And you needed to run, to become better at running.
Imho the base problem is in the general gameflow. Most people secure a poi or build a small shelter for the first night and stood inside during the night. With 60min/days that means after just playing for 45 minutes you are sitting around and can't do anything usefull... besides spamcrafting or running in circles.
In general i like LBD, but some aspects where missing. If LBD is the way to go, there have to be some mechanics that prevent pure spamcrafting. If no such mechanics are present it's just spamming and that's bad imho. Also reparing somewhat sabotates LBD (as repairing iirc didn't increase the skill). Especially like in A19 there is almost no reason to craft a stone axe again, if you already have one. Since there is no degradation, yuo just repair it over and over.
Some ideas:
- Crafting needs stamina. Running already does. (that means you need more food!)
- Increase crafting times (even a stone axe is not crafted in 5 seconds. Make it 1 minute or something like that)
- You can't run while crafting and can't use other tools
- Crafting-LBD only improves the item you are actually crafting (not tools or weapons in general)
- Each crafting has a cooldown, if you craft another item of the same kind before the cooldown runs out, staminausage is increased by 20%. It's like getting bored repeating the same process over and over.
- Repairing an item gives twice (or even triple) the value then just crafting (assume with repearing you inspect why it broke)
If you tie it to stamina, most people simply couldn't afford spam crafting in the first night, since many of them already struggle with food supplies anyway. And since staminausage increases with each repetition even in lategame just spamming becomes really anoying.
It could also been "limited". E.g with the old system that goes up to 600, you need a skill for each 100s. Then LBD can just increase it by 99.
So with Lvl0 you'll start crafting a tool of level 1 and can increase the quality up to 99 by LBD. To get above 100 you then need the specific perk at Lvl2. LBD starts over, allowing you to increase from 100 to 199... You don't need to have it increased to 99. As soon you'll get the perk, you can craft quality 100.
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Ralathar44
New member
My favorite thing in design of any kind is how all the random people think they can "easily" fix every problem in any system. Some motherfluffers need to learn about Hoffstadters Law. Hell, I've been reading how all manual testing will be replaced with automated testing for 15 years now. All we need is more abstraction! Yet here I am working QA 
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beHypE
New member
Nope. I haven't tried to "fix" anything in my post. If anything, scrap every design flaw there was and keep everything that was working, mostly action skills (weapon damage/handling, block damage, stamina gainz etc). Hell, there was even a popular mod in A18 that did it just fine.My favorite thing in design of any kind is how all the random people think they can "easily" fix every problem in any system. Some motherfluffers need to learn about Hoffstadters Law. Hell, I've been reading how all manual testing will be replaced with automated testing for 15 years now. All we need is more abstraction! Yet here I am working QA
For every post where I read "I'm against LBD because it was a grindfest" I just sigh and move on, because it seems some people can't see past how the whole package used to be, and how that doesn't mean it should just come back as it was. I guess it's a prime example how first experiences matter so much because god forbid things can be improved.