Gathering and looting is the same thing, just explain to me whats the difference between picking jucca in a desert or picking jucca from a house?
PC If TFP wanted natural progression might I suggest they bring back "spam crafting"
- Thread starter ArcadeAndrew115
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Liesel Weppen
New member
That is essentially wrong.
The bigger POIs had more Zs, because they are bigger. They didn't have tougher Zs or better loot. A weapon bag in the lootroom of the Shamway factory had exactly the same chance to spawn any weapon than a weapon bag in just a garage with not Z around at all.
What zombies spawn is ONLY determined by your gamestage, it does not depend at all on the location. And the loot previously had the same chance to drop for each box of the same type no matter where the box is located. The only difference now is, that also the loot is tied to your gamestage.
Factories may have seen harder, because they are bigger. It takes longer to fight through them, but it is NOT more difficult, you just need to endure longer to fight through it and in the end you still wouldn't get better loot than anywhere else.
You can fight trough a factory on day 1 and you will also not see any cop, feral or even radiated, because your gamestage is still low.
Since the loot drops in A18 were just RNG and not limited by anything else, the better chance to get a good weapon was to go in any poi where you find more lootboxes. Because opening many boxes increases your chance to get a drop with a low chance. The single box on the end of a factory, has no higher chance, but you fought a long way for lesser boxes.
Basically the factories where useless in every version up to now. To long to fight with NO better loot. The only value they got where the T5 missions and their quest reward. And as you can read from many many comments here on the forums too, people even dislike the T5 quests, because they simply take to long to finish.
The game currently is not even capable of making specific places harder and drop better loot there then anywhere else. TFP is currently working on such a system and that changes may ship with A20.
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RestInPieces
New member
Silly things, easily fixed with a few lines of code. They never bothered to do that though.
Not that I am saying they should have. Their game, their vision.
Our feedback >
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Slingblade2040
Active member
a lot of use enjoyed the LBD aspect of the game and as some have mentioned would like to see a revamped version return to the game. with TFP wanting progress slowed down and players hating certain aspects or finding the lower tier weapons and tools lacking why not return it for maybe alpha 20 or 21 if it goes that far?
like the perk and book system can stay for certain things like crafting and resource gathering increases while the LBD system can be made for block and weapon damage along with stacking it to certain perk requirements. hell if they want it to go further it could also be tied to requirements for using tools, weapons and armor.
yeah this is a dead horse but considering how the game has been getting and maybe it's just on here but enjoyment of the vanilla game seems to have dwindled maybe it's time to revisit it and see why people enjoyed that aspect of the game? thankfully the system is in some really good mods so incase it never gets added at least the modding community adds in fun elements to the game.
like the perk and book system can stay for certain things like crafting and resource gathering increases while the LBD system can be made for block and weapon damage along with stacking it to certain perk requirements. hell if they want it to go further it could also be tied to requirements for using tools, weapons and armor.
yeah this is a dead horse but considering how the game has been getting and maybe it's just on here but enjoyment of the vanilla game seems to have dwindled maybe it's time to revisit it and see why people enjoyed that aspect of the game? thankfully the system is in some really good mods so incase it never gets added at least the modding community adds in fun elements to the game.
Synvastian
New member
people enjoyed it because they could make 1 billion stone axes then make a perfect steel one from the "knowledge" they gained. or walk back and forth into spike traps to build armor skills/ health skills from healing.
LBD has been done, and talked about so many times, I'm sure if they ever thought about bringing it back, it would be already.
to be fair, I don't hate the idea of LBD, but seeing a new topic of LBD when one is posted almost weekly gets old
LBD has been done, and talked about so many times, I'm sure if they ever thought about bringing it back, it would be already.
to be fair, I don't hate the idea of LBD, but seeing a new topic of LBD when one is posted almost weekly gets old
Slingblade2040
Active member
yeah that's why it should have been revamped. it shouldn't have been scrapped completely. obviously some parts of it were bunk. it can be tweaked to work along side the current perk and book system. like all those damage boosting perks could've been removed and be placed instead to LBD for tools and weapons. cardio could have been kept also for LBD as you get better your stamina usage drops.
like i said the system just needed a revamp, overhaul whatever you want to call it but it made the game fun. this dumbed down perk system isn't horrible but it simplifies the game a lot and I think improvements could be made by using all 3 systems together.
If they want to slow down progression for players then maybe putting back in LBD to work with the other 2 system is the answer. they just need to overhaul it a bit.
like i said the system just needed a revamp, overhaul whatever you want to call it but it made the game fun. this dumbed down perk system isn't horrible but it simplifies the game a lot and I think improvements could be made by using all 3 systems together.
If they want to slow down progression for players then maybe putting back in LBD to work with the other 2 system is the answer. they just need to overhaul it a bit.
Teacyn
New member
LBD can only possibly work if it's used as a subsystem rather than the primary progression. Otherwise you loop back around to either crafting 400 stone axes or putting super strict and arbitrary caps on how much you can progress (based on GS or overall level if I had to guess), and that's awful for gamefeel.
IMO, it could work to have the currnet skill/perk system with LBD using to handle purely things that can't be cheesed, sort of more of a "Challenge" system than actual progression. Increase your block damage with a pickaxe by breaking ores. Decrease stamina usage of clubs by destroying 50 zombie heads with clubs. Decrease recoil with Machine Guns by landing 25 headshots in a row. ETC. Rather than being the primary source of progression, give the player difficult (or long-lasting, in the case of say the Pickaxe one) challenges that provide smaller bonuses that augment the skill/perk system.
If you'd asked me this same question in A18 I would have said that the new system is totally bunk and we should go back to LBD with some kind of fix for abusive stuff like crafting 400 stone axes, but A19 has patched up a lot of the holes in the new system. A lot of inconveniences and annoyances were fixed by condensing perks and consolidating Science. Having to put 5 levels into every skill was awful, but a lot of them are 3 or 4 now (and each level gives more bonuses, encouraging you to at least put one point) which makes it a lot more manageable. I still think LBD should come back in some form like the "Challenges" I mentioned so that players can become all-around stronger if they put the effort in without having to spend precious points, but it should not be the primary progression.
IMO, it could work to have the currnet skill/perk system with LBD using to handle purely things that can't be cheesed, sort of more of a "Challenge" system than actual progression. Increase your block damage with a pickaxe by breaking ores. Decrease stamina usage of clubs by destroying 50 zombie heads with clubs. Decrease recoil with Machine Guns by landing 25 headshots in a row. ETC. Rather than being the primary source of progression, give the player difficult (or long-lasting, in the case of say the Pickaxe one) challenges that provide smaller bonuses that augment the skill/perk system.
If you'd asked me this same question in A18 I would have said that the new system is totally bunk and we should go back to LBD with some kind of fix for abusive stuff like crafting 400 stone axes, but A19 has patched up a lot of the holes in the new system. A lot of inconveniences and annoyances were fixed by condensing perks and consolidating Science. Having to put 5 levels into every skill was awful, but a lot of them are 3 or 4 now (and each level gives more bonuses, encouraging you to at least put one point) which makes it a lot more manageable. I still think LBD should come back in some form like the "Challenges" I mentioned so that players can become all-around stronger if they put the effort in without having to spend precious points, but it should not be the primary progression.
Honestly it doesnt need much change.
Put everything combat related into LBD while the rest goes into perks. I mean if you whack zombies all day you are prone to pick up where to hit them actually but making the same stone axe would only make crafting stone axes better and not everything better in the same category.
caatalyst
Member
With the new book system you wouldn't even necessarily need skill points at all.
Learn by doing could be applied to all physical skills (Stamina, digestion, weapon accuracy and recoil etc)
Intellect skills could be learnt by finding books. (Crafting tools, blocks, ammo etc)
These two combined would be very organic and the book system would eliminate spam crafting. You could even expand the intellect skills by allowing the player to break down items they find in the world at the work bench to learn how to craft them. Maybe the more you break down the better you become at crafting them (higher item level).
Learn by doing could be applied to all physical skills (Stamina, digestion, weapon accuracy and recoil etc)
Intellect skills could be learnt by finding books. (Crafting tools, blocks, ammo etc)
These two combined would be very organic and the book system would eliminate spam crafting. You could even expand the intellect skills by allowing the player to break down items they find in the world at the work bench to learn how to craft them. Maybe the more you break down the better you become at crafting them (higher item level).
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RestInPieces
New member
caatalyst
Member
Spam crafting doesn't need to come back in order for learn by doing to work.
Instead we could have
Instead we could have
- Physical Skills are learnt by doing. Things like stamina, digestion, weapon accuracy and recoil would all fit nicely here.
- Intellect skills are learnt from books, schematics or from finding and breaking down items you find in the world at the work bench. This would include things like crafting tools, weapons and blocks. The more you break down or books / schematics you find, the better you get.
caatalyst
Member
AtomicUs5000
New member
Especially since they removed that from the old LBD system in A16 and yet people still use it as the prime reason to abandon LBD.
Ttocs said:I do miss parts of LBD, it was part of the magic of the version i fell in love with
It's pretty uncommon in mainstream FPS games. The only games I can think of that have this sort of progression system are indie roleplaying games... Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead for example. Several MUDs have them as well. The problem is figuring out a way to keep it fun without enticing people to grind. Locking crafting behind a skill that you can grind in will pretty much guarantee grinding. It works well for activities that are monotonous and imperative anyway; in this game fighting enemies and resource gathering are the two obvious activities where a LBD system can feel rewarding.caatalyst said:
uselessjunkaccount
New member
This is what I'd like to see. Learn-by-doing for action skills. For crafting, you could access additional crafting tiers by obtaining more blueprints. To me, spam crafting not only didn't feel natural but it felt a bit like cheating. Although I wouldn't mind seeing it again if spam crafting only helped you craft the specific item you are spam crafting. So with stone axes you are only getting skill in crafting stone axes. Perhaps combine that with the skill-ups obtained through blueprints and you'd have a system that could incentivize both looting and crafting as viable ways to get better crafted items much more organically.
Also it'd be nice if some skills were just done away with entirely like Pack Mule. Just give us carrying capacity with every level. Having to study to be a better engineer in crafting things makes sense but having to study to increase my strength makes no sense when I'm carrying around a backpack full of crap all day.
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Scyris
New member
Just add LBD for things like Weapon skills, and mining tools, and have the perks for those weapons be based on the level of the LBD skill you have in it, with perks at 1,20,40,60 and then 80 skill. Darkness Falls mod uses this setup and it works great.
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ArcadeAndrew115
New member
This would be the perfect way to do it, dont get me wrong NOTHING IS WRONG WITH HAVING PERKS, but if they want realism and immersion, the LBD method for basic skills like armor crafting&repair, and tools was much better and then supplement with perks/books. Ideally a no perk system, but LBD & find books to learn system would be the most realistic and natural progression BUT that would kill alot of good balance aspects of the game, or theyd have to be re-coded which could be difficult (IE: Well insulated perk would be a nightmare to try and code to show resistance to elements naturally over time, but in real life people can and do get used to the environment they live in so using it as a perk that you spend points on as you level up over time isnt THAT immersion breaking)Onarr said:
Spam crafting made sense though, If you dedicate time to make 100 stone axes, your first one will not nearly be as good as the 100th one...
Can you stop beating this horse? It's so dead the maggots are even gone... LBD is not coming back. It had upsides and downsides like anything does.
My most vivid memory of A16 was the fact that every single day1 I always holes up somewhere and crafted axes until morning, I dont miss that much
My most vivid memory of A16 was the fact that every single day1 I always holes up somewhere and crafted axes until morning, I dont miss that much