PC Idea to fix A20 farming

[Viktoriusiii]

Simple solution:
5 units needed for a seed, 1 for the food (or 25 for a seed and keep recipes as they are now)

This means you can farm a lot from one seed, while keeping up that farm is still challenging.

 

[bloodmoth13]

Yes. Not comparable.

A farmer without LotL does NOT turn crops into seeds (if he is right in his head). He just plants seeds he finds or buys. He gets crops out of that process as well as any other farmer, just not a self-sustaining farm.

The a20 changes didn't fix the infinite food problem it merely made farming broken for anyone without living off the land. My idea fixes infinite food as a problem without breaking farming initially. Getting one free crop after 3 harvests from 1 seed isn't a realistic infinite supply of food, but it is at least profitable.

The cost of fertilizer to make those harvests profitable which comes from sources that need to be looted or harvested offsets the bonuses to harvesting as you are not creating resources from nothing but rather turning inedible resources into edible ones.

This would likely be a nerf to overall food supplies but a buff to early game food creation without making it inefficient

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

That just shows me that the other sources are too lucrative and not that farming is.

Farming is the only source that really requires investing time and resources and it's the only source players have direct control over.

Maybe you missed how my idea would work, if you don't use fertilizer then you are only gaining 1 bonus crop after 3 harvests regardless of lolt, relying only on that would take forever to build up free food and honestly wouldn't be worth the effort, but crafting fertilizer would increase the yield which would cost other valuable resources.

The system would require the and investment for imo a fair return. That is what the cost of reliable food should be.

You getting lucky looting tons of food and getting it cheap from other sources has nothing to do with my idea, farming NEEDS to be functional which it isn't till investing in LotL right now. 

Farming gets you the good stuff constantly. Looting/buying/hunting doesn´t do that. That´s why points are needed. For the good stuff that gives you a stamina bonus, lasts longer, heals more and even can give you an attribute bonus with the sham chowder. 

It just a few points. Fortitude is something where points should be put in anyways, no matter wich build you play.

It´s a good system, those few points you need really don´t hurt. Not at all. I do play survivalist and i don´t miss those points.

With fertilizer you would have a net gain of 4 guaranteed per seed. That´s infinite food with no skill invested. As we had in A19 and even more effective.  

Not gonna happen. TFP doesn´t want that. If you want to suggest a new method, it needs to be in a way that a guaranteed net gain needs skill points.  

 

[pahbi]

Any 'fix' to farming needs to reduce the excessive clicking farming now requires.

As an overall concept, reigning in the overwhelming amount of food farming brought in was a good idea.

But the current solution is just way to clicky.  I want to spend my time building forts and killing zombies, not counting seeds and constantly replanting.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

But the current solution is just way to clicky.  I want to spend my time building forts and killing zombies, not counting seeds and constantly replanting.

I had a 20 plot farm and 10 mushrooms, took me not even 2 mins every 2 hours and i had enough food for 3 people at least.

 

[Roland]

Yes, living off the land resolves this problem entirely, but it shouldnt be mandatory to engage in farming.

I disagree with this premise and therefore the whole idea that anything needs to be fixed. You can plant seeds and harvest crops without any perks. That shows a rudimentary knowledge of growing things. It is fair and with what you find and can purchase and are gifted from quests you will have enough seeds to do a lot of planting and harvesting over the course of the game without ever spending a single point in Living off the Land.

By spending one single point you can create self sustaining farms if that is what you want to do. That is a very easy and small investment: One Single Point.

Frankly, they should do the same thing with harvesting meat from animals and make what you cut from the animal have a 50% chance of being rotten flesh and then for every rank you buy in huntsman your chances of getting good meat go up.

I would love to see some improvements and depth returned to farming but they don't need to fix the current state where unperked individuals can plant seeds and grow crops and harvest fruit that they can then use in recipes while perked individuals can get self-sustaining farms established. All of it is engaging in farming but just the degree varies.

 

[bloodmoth13]

Farming gets you the good stuff constantly. Looting/buying/hunting doesn´t do that. That´s why points are needed. For the good stuff that gives you a stamina bonus, lasts longer, heals more and even can give you an attribute bonus with the sham chowder. 

It just a few points. Fortitude is something where points should be put in anyways, no matter wich build you play.

It´s a good system, those few points you need really don´t hurt. Not at all. I do play survivalist and i don´t miss those points.

With fertilizer you would have a net gain of 4 guaranteed per seed. That´s infinite food with no skill invested. As we had in A19 and even more effective.  

Not gonna happen. TFP doesn´t want that. If you want to suggest a new method, it needs to be in a way that a guaranteed net gain needs skill points.  

Fertilizer isn't free though! You are turning one resource into another, if you can't farm fertilizer materials you are not getting bonuses, which means trading time and resources for food, which is exactly what the cost for food should be. There is still a cost that you seem to be intentionally ignoring, you can't grow bones, nitrate and rotten meat in a farm plot, you still need to loot or harvest them

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I don´t ignore that. It´s still free food. All the things you need for fertilizer are things you would collect anyways. It´s not a real cost. Bones and rotten meat come from the same source.  And that is not an infinite source btw. Your method would bring up severe problems for multiplayer. Especially on servers with up to 50 people.

Nitrate is something you mine anyways, the part you need for fertilizer is small compared to what you need for gunpowder. 

 

[bloodmoth13]

I disagree with this premise and therefore the whole idea that anything needs to be fixed. You can plant seeds and harvest crops without any perks. That shows a rudimentary knowledge of growing things. It is fair and with what you find and can purchase and are gifted from quests you will have enough seeds to do a lot of planting and harvesting over the course of the game without ever spending a single point in Living off the Land.

By spending one single point you can create self sustaining farms if that is what you want to do. That is a very easy and small investment: One Single Point.

Frankly, they should do the same thing with harvesting meat from animals and make what you cut from the animal have a 50% chance of being rotten flesh and then for every rank you buy in huntsman your chances of getting good meat go up.

I would love to see some improvements and depth returned to farming but they don't need to fix the current state where unperked individuals can plant seeds and grow crops and harvest fruit that they can then use in recipes while perked individuals can get self-sustaining farms established. All of it is engaging in farming but just the degree varies.

So you think food should be more scarce but infinite free food from one point in living off the land is perfectly fine?

I just don't understand this mindset! Currently it's very easy to get infinite free food like everyone keeps reminding me with 1 point in living off the land. THAT IS NOT MY PROBLEM

I am not advocating infinite free food with little investment, I want efficient farming to cost fertilizer which takes existing valuable materials and requires them to get decent returns. Living off the land gets you tons of food for no cost which just deletes food scarcity.

Fertilizer removes food scarcity at an ongoing cost that scales with your farm size.

Making seeds cost efficient off the bat might seem like I'm advocating free infinite food but if you really think getting 6 crops from 5 and 3 harvests over, what, 6 hours is going to remove all of your food problems I really don't think you understand what I am suggesting. That will almost never remove your food problems in the game, but it will make seeds profitable for desperate players.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Also wanna add that you not really have to invest any time on getting rotten meat/bones. You get that by questing wich we do anyways all the time. Once you reach T5 you have dogs and birds in every quest location. T4 already has a lot of them and in T2 and T3 you just need to know wich locations to take when questing.

 

[bloodmoth13]

I don´t ignore that. It´s still free food. All the things you need for fertilizer are things you would collect anyways. It´s not a real cost. Bones and rotten meat come from the same source.  And that is not an infinite source btw. Your method would bring up severe problems for multiplayer. Especially on servers with up to 50 people.

Nitrate is something you mine anyways, the part you need for fertilizer is small compared to what you need for gunpowder. 

Those resources are used elsewhere, you would be trading glue and gunpowder for fertilizer, and if you are already swimming in those materials I highly doubt that food scarcity is an issue in your game.

It's still not free, food needs to be available but not too abundant and the healthiest way to control that is to make it take time and or resources to create. It has a cost it's not free, you are trading one resource for another, it is a dishonest statement that is equivalent to saying that food is free at the traders because you are collecting dukes anyway.

Also wanna add that you not really have to invest any time on getting rotten meat/bones. You get that by questing wich we do anyways all the time. Once you reach T5 you have dogs and birds in every quest location. T4 already has a lot of them and in T2 and T3 you just need to know wich locations to take when questing.

Food scarcity shouldn't be an issue if you are doing t5s

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Food scarcity is not an issue at all in this game. You don´t need farming. It´s basically a nice to have. Not a must have. There is more animals than ever before now. More farm POI`s than in any other alpha. That´s why i have no issues at all with a cost of skillpoints for a guaranteed net gain.

Also one point isn´t enough, you need lots of luck to get a self sustaining farm with one point in Lotl. 2 points is what you need for that. And 3 points can give you enough food to get rich with selling it at the trader. 

And the snow biome is always full of meat, you can go hunting there pretty early if you are cautios enough, no need to tough, there is enough in the other biomes.  

And again, they changed the system because you could get infinite food with no skill point. And you suggest a new method that doesn´t need skillpoints either. No matter what you think it costs in ressources changes that fact (that ressources are basically "free" not really but it´s not really an effort to get them, you don´t need to do any extra work for it). The whole point TFP wanted to achieve is gating it behind a perk.

 

[fragtzack]

Hi,

 I seen no issues with farming in a20 after getting the 3X Living Off the Land perk.

Yes, different then other alphas but not broken.

I kinda enjoyed the randomness of crop harvesting in a20 now. Before a20, seemed like such a bore as constant 100% accurate prediction harvests was zzz.

If anything, would like to see farming removed in this game because once sustainable farming is achieved.. no more hunger pains.

IMHO, the "fix to farming" is to make farming harder and food storage difficult:

1. Harvests that rot if not harvested in time

2. Infestation to destroy crops

3. Bandits to steal stored food/water

4. Spoilage

"Fixing farming" is NOT going back to old alpha methods, IMHO.

$(7D2D)  != $(Stardew Valley)

 

[Orclover]

Honestly adjusting the xml file to leave the seedling in the ground after harvest has been a sanity saver.  We frankly don't even care what they do to farming any more since its a meaningless part of the game for our group.  Sure we will happily go out and kill literally hundreds of animals weekly to feed 5 people to make stews, not for the meat.  Oh no.  But for the lopsided fat drop rate that is required for any food that is worth 2 spits.  We are tossing meat out the window half the time and just want the fat to make stuff.  And yes, harvesting skills are maxed.

So use a mod or just edit the xml file to adjust the game to something a bit closer to sanity, like keeping the crop in the ground.  Then the devs can do whatever they want with future patches and it won't matter to you.

 

[bloodmoth13]

Hi,

 I seen no issues with farming in a20 after getting the 3X Living Off the Land perk.

Yes, different then other alphas but not broken.

I kinda enjoyed the randomness of crop harvesting in a20 now. Before a20, seemed like such a bore as constant 100% accurate prediction harvests was zzz.

If anything, would like to see farming removed in this game because once sustainable farming is achieved.. no more hunger pains.

IMHO, the "fix to farming" is to make farming harder and food storage difficult:

1. Harvests that rot if not harvested in time

2. Infestation to destroy crops

3. Bandits to steal stored food/water

4. Spoilage

"Fixing farming" is NOT going back to old alpha methods, IMHO.

$(7D2D)  != $(Stardew Valley)

You didn't read op did you?

I suggest you do because my solution was never reverting to old alphas.

Lotl3 is free infinite food that removes food economy, my suggestion fixed that by requiring a constant cost for farming that requires harvesting other materials

Honestly adjusting the xml file to leave the seedling in the ground after harvest has been a sanity saver.  We frankly don't even care what they do to farming any more since its a meaningless part of the game for our group.  Sure we will happily go out and kill literally hundreds of animals weekly to feed 5 people to make stews, not for the meat.  Oh no.  But for the lopsided fat drop rate that is required for any food that is worth 2 spits.  We are tossing meat out the window half the time and just want the fat to make stuff.  And yes, harvesting skills are maxed.

So use a mod or just edit the xml file to adjust the game to something a bit closer to sanity, like keeping the crop in the ground.  Then the devs can do whatever they want with future patches and it won't matter to you.

I don't want infinite food though, read op.

I want early game seed economy to make sense for players that don't have living off the land, and I want an ongoing cost for efficient farming.

Farming is broken without living off the land as seeds cost more than they produce and are a trap investment. Also once you have living off the land food is beyond sustainable and it is very easy to have free infinite food, which means hunger is never a danger. Having a cost for good harvests means capping how much excess food you can create.

 

[DiegoLBC1]

Also once you have living off the land food is beyond sustainable and it is very easy to have free infinite food, which means hunger is never a danger. Having a cost for good harvests means capping how much excess food you can create.

The whole game is like that. Are you going to say you go through the entire game without putting any points into Strength? or Health? Or Intellect?

Yes, you MUST become stronger and  inteligent as the game progresses, this is called EVOLUTION.

Do you complain when you become strong enough and fight zombies effortlessly instead of avoiding them? Don't you get "too strong" for them too?

You are weak at first and become strong later. What is the logic of complaining about difficult farming at the beginning and rewarding after conquering LoT? What's the point of spending a lot of resources and time on fertilizers, if just a few LoT points are enough for your farm to be bountiful?

If you want better health, it's fair to invest in skill

If you want more strength, it's fair to invest in skill

If you want more farming resources, it's fair to invest in the skill as well.

Food scarcity is not an issue at all in this game. You don´t need farming. It´s basically a nice to have. Not a must have.

I fully agree

 

[Whorhay]

After playing for awhile I don't think the farming really needs any fixing. I just don't bother farming unless I can go 3 of 3 in LotL. In Solo games food doesn't really seem like much of a struggle after the first few days just eating everything I find and boiling or charring meat. In Multi-Player the food pressure is definitely much more noticeable but then it's also easy enough for one person to go Fort first and be the farmer, and it's likely that someone will already also be delegated as the Int first player so it's not like someone having to play a role is unprecedented. It might be arguable that getting the initial seeds could be a challenge except that there appear to be pretty sizable farms scattered all around that can supply plenty of stuff to turn into seeds.

 

[Roland]

So you think food should be more scarce but infinite free food from one point in living off the land is perfectly fine?

No. I wasn't saying that. My disagreement with you was limited to your premise that purchasing LotL is mandatory to engage in farming and that should not be. You can do a rudimentary sort of farming as an unskilled character that is perfectly sufficient for creating dishes that can supplement your food. You will have access to some dishes sometimes as your luck with finding seeds dictates. That is a level of engagement with farming that is perfectly fine for spending zero points in farming skills.

By spending one single point your engagement with farming increases by quite a bit. With a lot of work and patience you can get a farm going and to the size needed to all but guarantee its continuance. 

So I do not believe that there is zero engagement with farming before you spend a point and you do not have to invest heavily at all in LotL in order to be able to increase your engagement with it. That is all I am disagreeing with.

I also stated that I'm all for improving farming which means, in my opinion, adding features that will help limit it further from becoming an infinite free food source whether one point two points or three points are spent on LotL. Perhaps your suggestions to this end would be fine. I didn't read past the point where you said that farming needed to be fixed because it shouldn't be mandatory to spend points to be able to engage in farming.

As I said, I would love for meat harvesting to get a nerf as well. I don't want infinite food sources but I also don't think that the player should have to worry about starvation for the entire length of the game. There should be a point where the food crisis is solved and the player can focus on other things. I wouldn't mind occasional events that could throw the player for a loop like something destroying the farm or a player's store of food so that you have to recover from that.

 

[Orclover]

After playing for awhile I don't think the farming really needs any fixing. I just don't bother farming unless I can go 3 of 3 in LotL. In Solo games food doesn't really seem like much of a struggle after the first few days just eating everything I find and boiling or charring meat. In Multi-Player the food pressure is definitely much more noticeable but then it's also easy enough for one person to go Fort first and be the farmer, and it's likely that someone will already also be delegated as the Int first player so it's not like someone having to play a role is unprecedented. It might be arguable that getting the initial seeds could be a challenge except that there appear to be pretty sizable farms scattered all around that can supply plenty of stuff to turn into seeds.

Yea solo it was meaningless to have farming unless you wanted to spend all your seeds for extra food instead of a actual food source.  But with groups of people hitting the environment at once then suddenly a cooperative farm plan became a massive necessity. We ran out of food FAST.  Not enough meat to go around, not enough canned goods to go around and with the revamped insanity hunger system we had people screaming about starving every hour.  Thankfully it also meant we could cooperate to get a farm up faster and make it BIG.  I got delegated to farmer since I was going punch build anyways, everybody kicked in every seed they found and all the spoiled meat they could find.  We had guys digging already for clay.  So by the end of the first week we had 30 or so farm plots all growing something.  Hunger was mostly gone for all of us by then with the designated cook just cranking out stews from the hunter and my farm.  But those first few days were rough with all of us eating everything, had to keep disciplined to not eat the veggies till we had enough seeds.

Thank god we edited the xml for seeds staying in the ground or we would have to devote even more time to keeping the fridges full.  None of our players want to spend all night doing that.  They want to do their pet projects or run Tier 5 POI's over and over, not play the hunger mini-game.

 

[bloodmoth13]

No. I wasn't saying that. My disagreement with you was limited to your premise that purchasing LotL is mandatory to engage in farming and that should not be. You can do a rudimentary sort of farming as an unskilled character that is perfectly sufficient for creating dishes that can supplement your food. You will have access to some dishes sometimes as your luck with finding seeds dictates. That is a level of engagement with farming that is perfectly fine for spending zero points in farming skills.

By spending one single point your engagement with farming increases by quite a bit. With a lot of work and patience you can get a farm going and to the size needed to all but guarantee its continuance. 

So I do not believe that there is zero engagement with farming before you spend a point and you do not have to invest heavily at all in LotL in order to be able to increase your engagement with it. That is all I am disagreeing with.

I also stated that I'm all for improving farming which means, in my opinion, adding features that will help limit it further from becoming an infinite free food source whether one point two points or three points are spent on LotL. Perhaps your suggestions to this end would be fine. I didn't read past the point where you said that farming needed to be fixed because it shouldn't be mandatory to spend points to be able to engage in farming.

As I said, I would love for meat harvesting to get a nerf as well. I don't want infinite food sources but I also don't think that the player should have to worry about starvation for the entire length of the game. There should be a point where the food crisis is solved and the player can focus on other things. I wouldn't mind occasional events that could throw the player for a loop like something destroying the farm or a player's store of food so that you have to recover from that.

Well read my original post beyond that point, skip to my 'solution' and see if you agree. My goal is to have seeds go back to being profitable (they cost time already that should be enough) but just barely, and shifting the profitability to fertilizer, which add ongoing cost to replenishing food stocks. 

I agree that food shouldnt be overly abundant but it needs to be accessible as playing the game with zero food is just painful, but forcing a player to focus on getting food over weapons or building material should be enough.