IDEA: (Optional) Lock armor tiers behind the attributes to f.e. cut annoying min-maxing part.

[Satosik]

Fix is for people not happy with preacher gloves being the best in slot item or ones that are switching gear for every single action in the game that makes them carry and rotate a lot of different armor parts. I'm mostly annoyed by the second case as it is the most optimal way to play the game at the moment. I was amazed when i saw streamer go for a mission and his ritual was like: kill zombie->switch eq parts->part of salvaging->switch eq back to zombie killing->loot armor for opening chests->switch gear to lower fuel usage->xp set for bigger xp reward->bartering gear to sell loot. This is how optimal playing looks like. I don't do this mostly due to playing on gamepad but there are people that can feel "guilt" for not doing that. Obviously there are more reasons to lock armor behind attributes which i will list later.

The idea is simply to connect armors with attritbutes. Preacher undead damage bonus should be op as hell becasue batons are not dealing a lot of damage. Also INT doesn't have any good ranged weapon for now. Obviously 60% enchanced damage should be a full armor set bonus not from a gloves but i leave item balancing for TFP. Some armor sets like farming type shouldn't be locked as there is no attribute that cover it which is cool according to the new general skills tab.

How for example do we lock armor tiers:
2nd lvl attribute -> you can wear 2nd tier of armor
4th lvl attribute -> you can wear 3rd tier of armor
6th lvl attribute -> you can wear 4th tier of armor
8th lvl attribute -> you can wear 5th tier of armor
10th lvl of attribute - > 6th tier is available now.

What did we achieve this way?
- we don't need to switch and carry 5 pairs of gloves, hats etc. for different activities
- our best in slot items are the one we can or achieved to wear
- our look and item bonuses match our gameplay
- our character archetype utilizes gear it's familiar with (no more of 50% wood for no strenght charactes)
- armor set bonuses are valuable now as the best in slot item combinations will be much weaker
- if we want a fantasy of preacher with sledge hammer we can use transmogs or lower tier armor to make it happen
- we don't hoard magazines just to make nerd armor useful for few seconds
- WE CAN MAKE IT OPTIONAL

What did we lose?
- big part of endgame for people collecting every single tier6 item which is possibly the only endgame goal we have now.

And that is the only reason i can imagine but it's still fine as long as we make it optional.

I would love to hear what do you think about this idea and actual armor system. The idea would need much more work and someone smarter than me to think about it but it is something that could make armor much more interesting as for now i'm only changing my "the most optimal combination" when i go mining for 30 minutes or more. Wardrobe system could help there a bit but you won't use it during the missions that also can be 30 mins long and utilize much more activities.

Cheers!

 

[Suxar]

I'm mostly annoyed by the second case as it is the most optimal way to play the game at the moment. I was amazed when i saw streamer go for a mission and his ritual was like: kill zombie->switch eq parts->part of salvaging->switch eq back to zombie killing->loot armor for opening chests->switch gear to lower fuel usage->xp set for bigger xp reward->bartering gear to sell loot.

Great, let him continue playing like this. While he's swapping armor back and forth, I'll clear the building, take the loot I need, and go clean the next one. And let him continue swapping armor and taking up half of his inventory with all this junk.

I don't care how people play single-player, the main thing is that it doesn't bother me.

 

[Satosik]

let him continue playing like this

I mentioned it's not a choice often. Perfectionism or missing out on doing sth better is not a funny thing. Many RPG players struggle with it.

And let him continue swapping armor and taking up half of his inventory with all this junk.

I don't play like him but the armor system we have is developed to be played like this if we mean doing it in the "right way". I would like to ask you how do you utilize armor system and talk how we can improve it. If it doens't bother you, there is no need to reply

 

[Suxar]

I would like to ask you how do you utilize armor system and talk how we can improve

Put on the priest's set and ran to rob buildings. I'd rather rob 2 POIs with 100% loot than rob 1 with 120% loot. Each change of clothes is time, during which time you can do something else.

I can also use other armor, but for specific actions.
I put on the miner's armor, took 2 packs of food and water and went to dig ore. I stop digging either because there is no more space in my inventory and drone, or because I have run out of food and water. So my excavations are quite long.
I use the farmer's clothes in a similar way.

 

[Suxar]

Perfectionism or missing out on doing sth better is not a funny thing. Many RPG players struggle with it.

Often it's funny because the concept of "optimal" is a very vague concept. You can play in many different ways, it's just a question of priorities. Time is a resource, after all, and it's often not taken into account.

 

[theFlu]

Hmm; I'm not happy about the min/max swapping design either, but I don't think locking them down would really improve things for me.

"Can't put on an armor until level X" simply makes no sense. With strength and heavy armors I could live with a limit, but strength isn't strength here.. it's headshot damage. But that wouldn't even begin to solve for light armors and mediums, nor the other attributes.

I'd rather have the armor designed either
- with some significant swapping delay (lose all bonuses for 5 mins on a swap, implementation should be dressed as a slowly stacking buff or some such, not a big red BONUSES DISABLED -debuff.)
- straight up Not to have swappable bonuses
- or even unlock the "swap bonus" via scrapping (stupid, but better than swapping...)

 

[Kalen]

ironically, one of the reasons given for the removal of clothing was that they didn't like that people needed to keep swapping clothing to survive in different biomes.

 

[Suxar]

ironically, one of the reasons given for the removal of clothing was that they didn't like that people needed to keep swapping clothing to survive in different biomes.

I didn't change it. It was enough to find clothes with maximum resistance to both cold and heat and run around the map in them. The clothes also had random stats, with the military pants and jacket having the highest stats for both resistances.

 

[Satosik]

I'd rather rob 2 POIs with 100% loot than rob 1 with 120% loot.

Thats not the case while playing on gamepad. I can't play as fast as PC players so its better to do this 10 seconds swapping but its dumb we bring down gameplay to armor micromanagement.

- with some significant swapping delay (lose all bonuses for 5 mins on a swap, implementation should be dressed as a slowly stacking buff or some such, not a big red BONUSES DISABLED -debuff.)

I love this and it makes me wonder about Learn By Doing armor bonus stats.

ironically, one of the reasons given for the removal of clothing was that they didn't like that people needed to keep swapping clothing to survive in different biomes.

Like @Suxar said i don't think many poeple changed mods a lot, it was pretty easy to do a setup with everything covered. I heard they changed that system so we don't have to bother with temperature mods but i don't believe it. For me its Diablo4 influence and how to make extra money on transmogs. Guess the first 7days2die dlc.

 

[Kalen]

I didn't change it. It was enough to find clothes with maximum resistance to both cold and heat and run around the map in them. The clothes also had random stats, with the military pants and jacket having the highest stats for both resistances.

sure, me too.... but early on, before you have good gear, you do need to swap out different types of clothing. For the past month or so I've been playing A16, and I constantly have to keep putting on or taking off a coat.

 

[Suxar]

sure, me too.... but early on, before you have good gear, you do need to swap out different types of clothing. For the past month or so I've been playing A16, and I constantly have to keep putting on or taking off a coat.

The only thing I sometimes changed was the cloak and jacket. I put on the jacket before going to the winter biome, and the cloak in the desert. And the temperatures didn't interfere that much.
And you could hang pockets on your clothes, right at the beginning of the game. Which made the process of collecting loot easier.

 

[Kalen]

Like @Suxar said i don't think many poeple changed mods a lot, it was pretty easy to do a setup with everything covered. I heard they changed that system so we don't have to bother with temperature mods but i don't believe it. For me its Diablo4 influence and how to make extra money on transmogs. Guess the first 7days2die dlc.

Wasn't talking about mods.... but clothes like the puffer jacket for the cold biomes or a hat for the hot biomes.... etc. In early to mid game, clothing mattered in earlier versions of the game. Some things made you warmer some things made you cooler. In later alphas, they changed it so that clothing just provided a base insulation that would protect you from either hot or cold, which made it possible to build a set that didn't require swapping out.

 

[Riamus]

Locking armor behind attributes won't really fix anything. It might matter a small amount in the early game, but by the time you are really crafting armor that is worth swapping, you are high enough level that locking it behind perks barely matters. And not much after that, it wouldn't matter at all since you can easily pay for the attributes in this game by mid game. All it really would do is annoy everyone who is already complaining about having to put points into attributes they don't care about.

Hmm; I'm not happy about the min/max swapping design either, but I don't think locking them down would really improve things for me.

"Can't put on an armor until level X" simply makes no sense. With strength and heavy armors I could live with a limit, but strength isn't strength here.. it's headshot damage. But that wouldn't even begin to solve for light armors and mediums, nor the other attributes.

I'd rather have the armor designed either
- with some significant swapping delay (lose all bonuses for 5 mins on a swap, implementation should be dressed as a slowly stacking buff or some such, not a big red BONUSES DISABLED -debuff.)
- straight up Not to have swappable bonuses
- or even unlock the "swap bonus" via scrapping (stupid, but better than swapping...)

Yes, that would help to remove the micromanagement of armor, but it would also make most armor not worth using at all. I don't swap armor, but that also means I don't use armor that has bonuses to farming or moving or whatever unless I find it and it is better than what I have and I can't craft what I really want. Now, if takes that long before you can benefit from swapping armor, you will most likely greatly reduce usage for a lot of the armors.

Some may just swap early and then use it once the timer runs out, but that means the timer isn't really affecting them anyhow. If they just put on mining gear before leaving to go mining and it takes 5 minutes to get to the mine or they put it on before unloading whatever is in inventory or whatever so the timer runs out before leaving to mine, then the timer isn't really changing anything for them. All it does is make it necessary to plan ahead. For those who don't want to plan ahead, they will probably just stop using those extra armors.

I don't think that is really a good thing. A lot of armor is already not worth using unless you micromanage it. Removing micromanagement just makes those armors even less worth having in the game. And, again, that is from someone who never swaps armor.

ironically, one of the reasons given for the removal of clothing was that they didn't like that people needed to keep swapping clothing to survive in different biomes.

Yet that wasn't even an issue prior to 1.0. From at least A20, you never had to swap clothing. The temperature stuff was kind of pointless and could easily be ignored, and it was easy to have enough protection without even trying, and without using the temperature mods.

Of course, it was possible to not have enough protection depending on what you wore, but it was easy to have enough, and some of the clothing people renewed to wear, such as the trench coat, were good protection, so they had the protection just by wearing what they already wanted to wear.

Even if swapping was needed in older alphas, it wasn't needed for at least A20 and A21, so I can't see that being a main reason for the removal of clothing and use of armor.

 

[Kalen]

Even if swapping was needed in older alphas, it wasn't needed for at least A20 and A21, so I can't see that being a main reason for the removal of clothing and use of armor.

It was A reason, maybe not the main reason..... but I'm like 90% certain I remember Joel saying he didnt like the "barbie dress up" aspect of the clothing system back when it was removed. He even said the same thing in the town hall, but in regards to the badge system.

 

[theFlu]

A lot of armor is already not worth using unless you micromanage it.

Indeed; and that's a stupid game mechanic, and those armors should be redesigned. Swapping from XP hat to loot hat at every trash pile is, frankly, a ■■■■■■■■ design. A 5 min cooldown would reduce the desire to swap, other than for that one thing you're using as an example, harvesting sprees.. it's relatively realistic to swap into work clothes to go into the mines (although that set should not be heavy, it isn't a protective set the same as plate armor). And having to do that once a week or so is kinda fine.

But having a design that makes you want to swap something every 5 seconds... no. Just no. If the armor isn't worth it, then leave it in as a cosmetic, remove it, modify it, or something. But if it's a piece you're INTENDED to swap spam, just let scrapping of it unlock the bonus permanently. That just saves a lot of clicks and headache. If you absolutely want the mechanic to keep wasting an inventory slot for the bonus, make them scrap into a buff token, active from inventory.

Something, anything.

 

[Riamus]

Indeed; and that's a stupid game mechanic, and those armors should be redesigned. Swapping from XP hat to loot hat at every trash pile is, frankly, a ■■■■■■■■ design. A 5 min cooldown would reduce the desire to swap, other than for that one thing you're using as an example, harvesting sprees.. it's relatively realistic to swap into work clothes to go into the mines (although that set should not be heavy, it isn't a protective set the same as plate armor). And having to do that once a week or so is kinda fine.

But having a design that makes you want to swap something every 5 seconds... no. Just no. If the armor isn't worth it, then leave it in as a cosmetic, remove it, modify it, or something. But if it's a piece you're INTENDED to swap spam, just let scrapping of it unlock the bonus permanently. That just saves a lot of clicks and headache. If you absolutely want the mechanic to keep wasting an inventory slot for the bonus, make them scrap into a buff token, active from inventory.

Something, anything.

I didn't say micromanagement is good. I even said I refuse to do it. I just pointed out that just adding a timer has little to no effect on some of the things (reading magazines, mining, farming, cutting wood), and for others, it just makes the armor not worth ever using except as stuff you find that happens to be better than you are using or can craft.

I think it is better just not having bonuses like those. Have the bonuses only related to fighting so you have no reason to swap unless perhaps for horde night if you are changing to a different kind of weapon, which I don't think is too bad.

At the same time, I also don't see any reason to tell others how to play the game. If they want to micromanage, I don't have a problem with that. It doesn't hurt me if they do so. I'll continue to not waste my time.

And if anyone wants to say that they "have" to do it because they "have" to play in the most efficient way, then I have to ask... Do you enjoy playing that way? If so, why are you complaining. And if not, why are you playing that way? No one forces you to micromanage if you don't want to and don't enjoy it. It isn't hard to ignore micromanagement of you don't enjoy it.

 

[theFlu]

I didn't say micromanagement is good.

Never said you did? I was just trashing the system. The armor isn't worth existing without constant swapping. The design is to swap, or to ignore the sets; neither is good for a game. The decision in between could be said to be "the" part of the game, trying to give you a freedom to make bad decisions; but the decision is "how much UI-clicking are you willing to endure for a small buff". That, that optimizes the game play around the players tolerance for frustration, essentially maximizing player frustration by design ... that's not great.

The cooldown is an idea that would indeed eliminate quick swapping, but allow for all the sets to exist for, say, multiplayer setups, with designated looters and whatnot. It doesn't make for a perfect system, just a marginally better one.

I'd rather have no magical bonuses on armor; "damage against undead" ... really? Your sledgehammer knows the difference between a bear skull and a zombie bear skull because of the gloves you wear? Loot bonus? The Lever Action rifle in the box turned into a Sniper Rifle for LARPing a ninja?