PC Idea for removing level gates.

[Skeeter63082]

@Ldog and @ icehot

You both have legitimate points. This is obviously a balancing issue. The level gates force people to grind zeds to achieve non-combat ability which makes no sense. But at the same time, grinding non-combat activities is not even close to productive, so either way you're killing zeds.

 

[PoppaTot]

I guess my feelings are that TFP's won't just pick the middle ground. For example, people come to my stream and as the question: "what is the fastest way to level?"

Me: A16.4 would be mining and A17 would be zombie farming, and only zombie farming.

To me that answer should not be polar opposites based on the alpha you're playing lol

 

[icehot]

I still don't get your logic. I get 3-5 levels a day. I'd get half that if zed xp were nerfed, so it would take me twice as long.If there were no level gates, it's not like I'm going to beeline for crafting skills (and I AM our groups crafter, also highest level), I'd be maxing my chosen weapon skills first. Then of course there's a level or 2 of all the important QOL perks like cardio, factor, pack mule. I don't think my early game point spending would change all that much if the gating were removed. I absolutely hated it at first but learning to live with it and compared to the way A16 did it I will take A17 all day, everyday and twice on Sunday.

I don't get it at all - everyone seems so hung up on levelling as fast as possible, what's wrong with it taking twice as long?

 

[Skeeter63082]

I don't get it at all - everyone seems so hung up on levelling as fast as possible, what's wrong with it taking twice as long?

Because screw stone, wood, iron, and ammo, time is your most important resource in this game. Rushing to gain levels is an attempt to better prepare yourself for the sh*tstorm that is approaching.

 

[PoppaTot]

I don't get it at all - everyone seems so hung up on levelling as fast as possible, what's wrong with it taking twice as long?

Take it for what you will, there are people that don't like tedious/challenging part of games. I enjoy it, but when it changes drastically and I'm forced to totally alter my play style to even be relevant to the group it's a bit jarring. I still enjoy A17, but it's not the same game I grew to love. Just my humble opinion.

 

[icehot]

@Ldog and @ icehot
You both have legitimate points. This is obviously a balancing issue. The level gates force people to grind zeds to achieve non-combat ability which makes no sense. But at the same time, grinding non-combat activities is not even close to productive, so either way you're killing zeds.

I've been playing through actively avoiding zombies where I can, I've been building, resource gathering, farming, exploring, looting, surviving - and yes killing zombies when they're in the way, coming my way, or going to destroy something I care about, so that has meant I've had to kill wandering hordes etc. Based on that it's now day 28 in my game, and I'm level 45, got a reinforced concrete base, a bike, iron tools, a workbench, a farm etc. So I don't think there's anything wrong with the levelling at all. I'm avoiding levelling wherever I can, and the pace is still just fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Infact I'm doing it right now, as it's day 28, my horde base is ready, so I literally have the game in the background passing the day away in the sneak position in my base deliberately so I don't increase my game stage for the horde night.

 

[Skeeter63082]

I've been playing through actively avoiding zombies where I can, I've been building, resource gathering, farming, exploring, looting, surviving - and yes killing zombies when they're in the way, coming my way, or going to destroy something I care about, so that has meant I've had to kill wandering hordes etc. Based on that it's now day 28 in my game, and I'm level 45, got a reinforced concrete base, a bike, iron tools, a workbench, a farm etc. So I don't think there's anything wrong with the levelling at all. I'm avoiding levelling wherever I can, and the pace is still just fine.

If your current pace is satisfactory for you, then keep doing what you're doing. Everyone has a different play style, and in it's current form, A17 seems to want to pigeonhole most players into a combat oriented play style. I'm glad to hear you've had such success utilizing minimal combat and it's good to know it can be done. I think most people just want more options regarding play style like we had in A15 and A16.

 

[Krougal]

Because screw stone, wood, iron, and ammo, time is your most important resource in this game. Rushing to gain levels is an attempt to better prepare yourself for the sh*tstorm that is approaching.

This!

 

[icehot]

This!

It's not though, rushing to gain levels, increases your gamestage so the ♥♥♥♥ storm is worse, before you've even got the resources to defend it.

 

[Krougal]

I've been playing through actively avoiding zombies where I can, I've been building, resource gathering, farming, exploring, looting, surviving - and yes killing zombies when they're in the way, coming my way, or going to destroy something I care about, so that has meant I've had to kill wandering hordes etc. Based on that it's now day 28 in my game, and I'm level 45, got a reinforced concrete base, a bike, iron tools, a workbench, a farm etc. So I don't think there's anything wrong with the levelling at all. I'm avoiding levelling wherever I can, and the pace is still just fine.
- - - Updated - - -

Infact I'm doing it right now, as it's day 28, my horde base is ready, so I literally have the game in the background passing the day away in the sneak position in my base deliberately so I don't increase my game stage for the horde night.

I can understand that....at level 100 when you can at least unlock everything...I mean ya, I of course tested the game out as a level 300 and fully kitted out and it's about the same as being a low level again really (granted without the base I'd have built by day 100 or however long it would take to get there legit), because every ♥♥♥♥ing zed is a radiated or feral.

We replied at same time lol, but anyway, same response. I get it, but if you got comparatively more XP from mining/crafting (which nerfing zed xp effectively does) I don't see how you would be in any different a situation.

 

[Skeeter63082]

It's not though, rushing to gain levels, increases your gamestage so the ♥♥♥♥ storm is worse, before you've even got the resources to defend it.

Legit point. A lot of people don't take gamestage into account because it was never a readily visible stat until now. Some people enjoy the challenge though, so it's fair to say if they want to take that path, so be it.

 

[icehot]

Legit point. A lot of people don't take gamestage into account because it was never a readily visible stat until now. Some people enjoy the challenge though, so it's fair to say if they want to take that path, so be it.

Completely agree, but when people are levelling to make the horde easier, it's completely the opposite.

 

[icehot]

I suppose you could make a point that perhaps the hordes and gamestages are too much too early on, if people are either playing like I am, or thinking they need to level fast to face it as well (despite that being incorrect).

 

[Skeeter63082]

Completely agree, but when people are levelling to make the horde easier, it's completely the opposite.

Yeah, leveling can be a double edged sword if you don't allocate skill points correctly and have some crap RNG on top of it. At this point, you can actually destroy a build, which is something we've never seen before in 7DTD. It's kind of exciting if you think about it. Lasting consequences for bad decisions. Starting to sound more and more like a real survival game.

 

[icehot]

Yeah, leveling can be a double edged sword if you don't allocate skill points correctly and have some crap RNG on top of it. At this point, you can actually destroy a build, which is something we've never seen before in 7DTD. It's kind of exciting if you think about it. Lasting consequences for bad decisions. Starting to sound more and more like a real survival game.

I worry as well with fast levelling that despite "being" able to do everything, I just won't have the resources to do it, taking it at a slower pace has meant I've got a tonne of resources now.

 

[Skeeter63082]

I worry as well with fast levelling that despite "being" able to do everything, I just won't have the resources to do it, taking it at a slower pace has meant I've got a tonne of resources now.

That's actually the playstyle I utilized pre A17. It works well. Perhaps my reason to rush right now is that I want to play test all the content I can before stable comes out and I start a new world. Sure, they say we'll be able to keep our worlds, but I'm not relying on that, so I'm getting in all the content I can find before that happens.

 

[Trebor1503]

I posted this elsewhere but it applies here as a suggestion, based on the idea that the gates are currently too large and too far apart:

-----

Would it perhaps be a compromise to "smooth" the gates. Now the jumps are so big and noticeable. You play for a long time to get a bunch of things unlocked all at once. What if instead the following happened:

Lvl 5: you can buy perk that along with other things allows you to build a forge. (you can not make an anvil, forged iron, or iron tools)

Lvl 10: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge an anvil. (you can not make forged iron or iron tools)

Lvl 15: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge iron. (you can not make iron tools)

Lvl 20: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to make iron tools.

In this example you still end up with the same "end gate" but you have the feeling of success along the way. I could be burning items into my forges at level 7. I could make iron bars to repair that axe I found at level 17. The gates would be more gradual and the game might feel more fluid. Thoughts?

 

[Krougal]

I'm sure there are sweet spots for gamestage but I don't know where they are. So there's a point where leveling makes you stronger than the usual suspects, and then there's a point where you start getting more ferals and then you are weaker again. Like I had just hit 30 and upgraded us to leather/iron armor and crossbows (ok, so that's a downgrade) and then a screamer pops up, and we love screamers, so I go out to greet her. I'm backpedaling from a feral tourist (which is where I decide the xbow is a downgrade) and some dogs came in behind me...you can imagine how well that turned out.

Still resource gathering, I'd rather do it with iron tools and some perks under my belt than with stone tools and no perks (actually I'd still rather someone else do it )

Right now the 2 guys that do most of the mining are on the least. The other guy who is more active mostly hunts and quests. We're coming up on day 14 (2 hour days - not our choice) I think we joined the server on day 3 or 4 so that's like 20 vanilla game days behind us. So actually my leveling hasn't been fast at all, I'm like 34 or 35. I have had to split my time between all activities much as I would if I was SP, and then I probably spend more time doing low-no XP things (tidying up, running food/water & picking up stone/iron from the mine). Have most of the base upgraded to reinforced concrete. Granted we got lucky that the trader had all functioning workstations. Now if we weren't keeping the heatmap skyhigh all the time I'd probably be the lowest level and I would not be happy at all being the base female dog, the screamer hordes kinda mitigate the questing time I lose out on.

Anyway, I'm rambling again, but this is a good discussion. What were we talking about again anyway?

- - - Updated - - -

I posted this elsewhere but it applies here as a suggestion, based on the idea that the gates are currently too large and too far apart:-----

Would it perhaps be a compromise to "smooth" the gates. Now the jumps are so big and noticeable. You play for a long time to get a bunch of things unlocked all at once. What if instead the following happened:

Lvl 5: you can buy perk that along with other things allows you to build a forge. (you can not make an anvil, forged iron, or iron tools)

Lvl 10: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge an anvil. (you can not make forged iron or iron tools)

Lvl 15: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to forge iron. (you can not make iron tools)

Lvl 20: You can buy a perk that along with other things allows you to make iron tools.

In this example you still end up with the same "end gate" but you have the feeling of success along the way. I could be burning items into my forges at level 7. I could make iron bars to repair that axe I found at level 17. The gates would be more gradual and the game might feel more fluid. Thoughts?

That's cringeworthy! Are we going to get 4x the perk points then, and have every other perk line broken down into 4x as many perks? That'd be like going back to A16 without the skills.

No, I hated not being able to have a forge right away at first but having adjusted I kinda like it how it is. Hope to find a working forge (and unless you have really ♥♥♥♥ty luck you will) and you can start smelting stuff down, make anvil and (again if you had ♥♥♥♥ty luck) a cooking pot and iron to repair found/bought tools, and if your luck is total ♥♥♥♥, 20 is doable in the first week.

 

[Trebor1503]

...That's cringeworthy! Are we going to get 4x the perk points then, and have every other perk line broken down into 4x as many perks? That'd be like going back to A16 without the skills...

In my thoughts the perks would be the same, the levels would be the same, Forge would just have 7 levels instead of 4. You would have to choose to spend those 3 perk points along the way. In a Multi game you would only need one person to take the hit for the team so it would not matter as much.

I agree the idea has minuses but I thought it was worth adding to the discussion for those that hat not getting a forge of any kind until Lvl20.

 

[secateurs]

That's what I did on my second play, just set all the level req for stats to 1.

And I quite like the way that worked, takes your aim away from grinding, you're free to put points where you wish instead of saving them up. You don't get steel on day one, you still have to play the game but it's more fun.