PC I just realised base defense is quite flawed in A17.

[DarlingCows]

The side of the base would look like as follows. I’m making B= upgraded cobble block and - = posts

B B B B B B B

B - - - - - - - - B

B B B B B B B

Along all 4 side and I’m focused in club perks and some bow perks. Shoot the zombies as the struggle to get close through the spikes then club them when they make it to the base. No escape plan except build out and run. Good for starting bases not late game.

 

[meganoth]

You deserve a cookie after that one.
I did build a box, but honestly it's all I managed to build with the materials I had and without trying to exploit the AI. Like I said, iron is too expensive and a wood base is like a magician; now you see it, now you don't.

I guess I'll watch these folks and see what exactly is it they do, provided they don't use mods or spend the whole 7 days just gathering resources, no matter how tedious that may be early game.

In A17.0 (where the zombies were more dangerous than now) I used one of the really big rocks as the base from which to shoot at the first horde. Naturally had to smooth it so there was no easy way up. Building material was enough to build a 2-block high cobblestone wall around it and fill this "courtyard" with spike traps. It worked.

With the knowledge that so many POIs have building materials now I think I wouldn't need the big rock anymore and could build something similar with concrete. I didn't try it at warrior difficulty though.

As others have said, if you want to face the horde on ground level you are making it very difficult for yourself. The zombies surely will think highly of your sense of fairness while they munch on you :cocksure:

 

[meganoth]

All of them, without a single exception either a) use AI cheesing in one way or another or b) don't use their main base to defend against horde.

Where does your condition b) come from? Is that exploiting in your book as well?

If yes, that exploiting was already common when I started playing this game with A15. For most it is simply a safety measure. I for example could have built the crafting base on top of every one of my 4 or 5 horde bases in A17 (except for the base on bedrock). It wouldn't have made any difference.

EDIT: A friend reminded me of another reason to have separate crafting and horde bases: They have different purposes, the crafting base should be with comfortable entrances for humans and vehicles, maybe even pleasing to the eye. And the defense is targeted against screamers. The horde base is a death trap for zombies. Even if you say you roleplay, a survivor who knows what we know would live somewhere comfortable and would use a sturdy factory building to live through horde night.

 

[RipClaw]

Absolutely not. Zombies wrecking the house from under you is cheesing?

I believe Zorlox refered to the part in which Xtrakicking wrote that you can not stop the horde from wrecking the base, without using tricks. You wrote yourself that the horde was wrecking the Bear Den beneath you while you where shooting at them.

Your tactic is to find a stable POI, reinforce it and use it as a base until it collapses or the repairs are too extensive. You can do that.

But some people want to build a base from scratch. I also belong to this group because it allows me to let my creativity run free and I can make the base much more efficient.

 

[RipClaw]

Take a look at Glock. He doesn't cheese the AI. He did a series of a horde every night, watch that one.

Nothing against Glock but his defense is practically always the same. Finding a POI stable enough to reinforce it a little and shoot at the zombies from above and throw molotov cocktails at them. Somewhat boring in the long run and also not particularly creative.

Cheesing and exploit are terms I have never accepted as something negative because everyone has their own definition of them. Partly it's just to say "you don't play like I do". I see it as using my mind to defend my base and not just brute force. Why wouldn't I use my knowledge of the zombies?

Mr. Reach released a video today defending a simple base against zombies in A17.4. It was a tower surrounded by 6000 spikes. Very basic and highly inefficient if you ask me. After the horde at least 90% of the spikes are still standing and the zombies got through to the tower.

In A16 this setup might have worked with the simple AI but A17 is different.

My current base consists of a staircase leading up to a kill corridor with me at the end standing in a shark cage with an SMG. Between me and the zombies there are currently 6 dart traps, 4 electric fences and a blade trap. But I would have room for more traps if necessary. The base is extremely efficient. Apart from a few spiders and dogs, no zombie comes anywhere near me. And for them I have my SMG.

So that the zombies don't attack the rear part of the base directly but run through the corridor, I dug a trench around the rear part of the base with an exit in the front part of the base. There are no spikes in the trench. The purpose of the trench is to lead the zombies to the entrance. So I use the pathfinding of the zombies against them.

So, do I use exploits in my base or any cheesy tactics ? The answer depends on the definition of this two term. I use the pathfinding of the zombies against them und let the base do most of the work. But on the other hand there is no infinite loop.

 

[Reth]

Where does your condition b) come from? Is that exploiting in your book as well?
If yes, that exploiting was already common when I started playing this game with A15. For most it is simply a safety measure. I for example could have built the crafting base on top of every one of my 4 or 5 horde bases in A17 (except for the base on bedrock). It wouldn't have made any difference.

EDIT: A friend reminded me of another reason to have separate crafting and horde bases: They have different purposes, the crafting base should be with comfortable entrances for humans and vehicles, maybe even pleasing to the eye. And the defense is targeted against screamers. The horde base is a death trap for zombies. Even if you say you roleplay, a survivor who knows what we know would live somewhere comfortable and would use a sturdy factory building to live through horde night.

No, I do not view condition b) as an exploit. It should be considered together with the title of this thread. Same as OP, I believe the base defense in this game is seriously flawed atm. When somebody as proficient at this game as Z-Nation FFS resorts to fighting hordes in a large empty pit without using *any* defensive tools, something is fundamentally wrong. Going toe-to-toe with a bunch of brainless killing machines should never be the best option available. Sadly, it seems to be. I've done it myself countless times, it works wonders but makes very little sense.

Folks should really take a step or two back and look at what the base defense has become in A17. Having two or three bases is now the new norm. Hey, look, here comes the horde, lets hoof to our *other* base where we will safely shoot at them while they run around in circles following the ever-changing path of least resistance.

 

[meganoth]

No, I do not view condition b) as an exploit. It should be considered together with the title of this thread. Same as OP, I believe the base defense in this game is seriously flawed atm. When somebody as proficient at this game as Z-Nation FFS resorts to fighting hordes in a large empty pit without using *any* defensive tools, something is fundamentally wrong. Going toe-to-toe with a bunch of brainless killing machines should never be the best option available. Sadly, it seems to be. I've done it myself countless times, it works wonders but makes very little sense.

Ok, I still don't understand the connection between b) and the thread theme, but nevermind.

In A16 I actually have been going outside the horde base on horde night and meleeing the zombies for a few hours. In A17 (with reduced running-backwards speed and more difficult melee combat, slow healing packs) MY reflexes and abilities are just not good enough. And I make mistakes from time to time. And I would bet that is the same for the majority of players. You don't think Z-Nation is a typical player, do you?

How do you define "the best option"? I have (with all the experience I accumulated) no problem at all to build a rock solid horde base that makes it almost impossible for the zombies to reach me/us. The basic problem is so easy that I am always trying out new base designs. But that is no surprise, anyone with 1000 hours in this game should have found a way to cope with the zombie problems or he didn't search well enough. Whether he is agile enough to face them on an empty field or knows how to build a base that is nearly impenetrable. On an open field I would be probably dead (almost?) every horde night.

Wait, correction: I actually didn't try it out recently. Maybe after a few horde nights I could eventually survive on an open field. I would probably need to mine half a week for ammunition to do that and concentrate on guns. I don't think I could survive doing melee, except mixing it in between bursts of shooting.

Folks should really take a step or two back and look at what the base defense has become in A17. Having two or three bases is now the new norm. Hey, look, here comes the horde, lets hoof to our *other* base where we will safely shoot at them while they run around in circles following the ever-changing path of least resistance.

If they have the resources to build 3 less-than sturdy bases instead of one sturdy one, let them. Material/traps, ammunition, player abilities and avatar abilities are the 4 ways to combat zombies and people have their preferences where to invest their time the most.

 

[Feycat]

No, I do not view condition b) as an exploit. It should be considered together with the title of this thread. Same as OP, I believe the base defense in this game is seriously flawed atm. When somebody as proficient at this game as Z-Nation FFS resorts to fighting hordes in a large empty pit without using *any* defensive tools, something is fundamentally wrong. Going toe-to-toe with a bunch of brainless killing machines should never be the best option available. Sadly, it seems to be. I've done it myself countless times, it works wonders but makes very little sense.
Folks should really take a step or two back and look at what the base defense has become in A17. Having two or three bases is now the new norm. Hey, look, here comes the horde, lets hoof to our *other* base where we will safely shoot at them while they run around in circles following the ever-changing path of least resistance.

If people are doing that, it's by choice. You can very easily build a standard, non-maze, sturdy base that will allow you to do everything in one location, if you so desire. The only thing holding back is a willingness to do so, I suppose.

 

[Zorlox]

I believe Zorlox refered to the part in which Xtrakicking wrote that you can not stop the horde from wrecking the base, without using tricks. You wrote yourself that the horde was wrecking the Bear Den beneath you while you where shooting at them.
Your tactic is to find a stable POI, reinforce it and use it as a base until it collapses or the repairs are too extensive. You can do that.

But some people want to build a base from scratch. I also belong to this group because it allows me to let my creativity run free and I can make the base much more efficient.

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.

I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.
I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

Taking out stairs or blocking paths to you in a POI may have been considering "cheesing" the AI at one time. However, at one time, that was the extent of the AI. If you did this, it was essentially "beaten".

It doesn't apply anymore because the AI has changed. The AI will now sometimes destroy supports if it cannot get to you.

Other forms of cheesing exist now with the newer AI, but the upcoming Demolisher will likely throw a wrench in that enough to where those methods won't be considered cheesing anymore.

People always say around here that adjusting the AI is a moot effort because "players will always be able to cheese the AI" but I disagree. A more true statement would be "players will always be able to BEAT the AI." - as they should because without being able to beat it, it would make for a horrible game.

People will have different opinions of what is considered beating the AI vs what is considered cheesing the AI. For me, as long as it requires some creative thought and planning, and cannot be done immediately at some POI just hours before a horde, it wouldn't be cheesing. Right now, such a thing does not exist. Hoping for a day where it does. To me, being able to get any POI ready just a couple hours before a horde indicates there is some cheese to be had. It shouldn't be that easy.

 

[OzHawkeye]

People will have different opinions of what is considered beating the AI vs what is considered cheesing the AI. For me, as long as it requires some creative thought and planning, and cannot be done immediately at some POI just hours before a horde, it wouldn't be cheesing. Right now, such a thing does not exist. Hoping for a day where it does. To me, being able to get any POI ready just a couple hours before a horde indicates there is some cheese to be had. It shouldn't be that easy.

I agree it shouldn't be that easy, but I suspect I'm a little more pessimistic than you, on the likely outcome of the battle of "TFP AI" versus "Player BI" (Biological intelligence).

My suspicion is that no matter what reasonable efforts TFP put into the Zombie/Bandit AI, some clever player will quickly find a way to fairly effortlessly defeat it, and that information will quickly spread through the community.

In the end, I think the Horde will always be what players choose to make of it, from disabling it completely at end of the spectrum, to deliberately forgoing tactics that trivialise it at the other end.

This isn't meant to obviate the need for TFP to make the AI as robust (and competitive) as possible, only just to predict that whatever the final system is, will have at least one well known strategy that counters it with minimal effort involved.

 

[meganoth]

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.
I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

Are you by chance playing this mainly as a scavenger/shooter type game or adhering to a chivalry codex against zombies? :cocksure:

Because denying access to the enemy by constructual means is the prefered method a builder would use, in games like this partly builder/sandbox game. Just like castle architects in ancient times. See this or this model of a roman guard tower. Or the picture on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_the_Roman_era.

This method never worked on its own, they had to use guards to differentiate friend or foe because there wasn't this big difference in intelligence and abilities to make use of.

Notice that the developers could have easily changed zombie jump height to the same as player jump height if they really thought a ladder two blocks up were an exploit (that there are still other exploits is never a good excuse if you can easily close one)

 

[meganoth]

I agree it shouldn't be that easy, but I suspect I'm a little more pessimistic than you, on the likely outcome of the battle of "TFP AI" versus "Player BI" (Biological intelligence).
My suspicion is that no matter what reasonable efforts TFP put into the Zombie/Bandit AI, some clever player will quickly find a way to fairly effortlessly defeat it, and that information will quickly spread through the community.

In the end, I think the Horde will always be what players choose to make of it, from disabling it completely at end of the spectrum, to deliberately forgoing tactics that trivialise it at the other end.

This isn't meant to obviate the need for TFP to make the AI as robust (and competitive) as possible, only just to predict that whatever the final system is, will have at least one well known strategy that counters it with minimal effort involved.

The convertibility of everything in this game is the problem as well as the solution. No matter what the player thinks of, an exploding zombie should be principally able to erode any cheese by random destructive force, additionally to AI changes that might address exploits individually.

I define "Cheese" as a structure that has a great impact on defense with a very low block count to build up (if that isn't the case, it is by definition how a builder should be able to solve a tower defense/builder game). Consequently an explosion is a bigger danger to such a cheesed structure than to a "conventional" one where the safety relies on more and redundant blocks.

 

[RipClaw]

The convertibility of everything in this game is the problem as well as the solution. No matter what the player thinks of, an exploding zombie should be principally able to erode any cheese by random destructive force, additionally to AI changes that might address exploits individually.
I define "Cheese" as a structure that has a great impact on defense with a very low block count to build up (if that isn't the case, it is by definition how a builder should be able to solve a tower defense/builder game). Consequently an explosion is a bigger danger to such a cheesed structure than to a "conventional" one where the safety relies on more and redundant blocks.

I define "Cheese" as food that is made from milk.

For me, the question with the exploding zombie is how often he occurs in the horde.

If there are only one or two of them per horde then you can build in enough redundancies to compensate a loss. If the zombie occurs as often as the cops in my current hordes then I might run out of space to add redundancy.

I also think it would be a bit cheap if you didn't have the possibility to kill the zombie without causing him to explode.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I define "Cheese" as food that is made from milk.
For me, the question with the exploding zombie is how often he occurs in the horde.

If there are only one or two of them per horde then you can build in enough redundancies to compensate a loss. If the zombie occurs as often as the cops in my current hordes then I might run out of space to add redundancy.

I also think it would be a bit cheap if you didn't have the possibility to kill the zombie without causing him to explode.

I think that at least having that need to build the redundancy would be good enough for now.

 

[Onarr]

Are you by chance playing this mainly as a scavenger/shooter type game or adhering to a chivalry codex against zombies? :cocksure:
Because denying access to the enemy by constructual means is the prefered method a builder would use, in games like this partly builder/sandbox game. Just like castle architects in ancient times. See this or this model of a roman guard tower. Or the picture on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_the_Roman_era.

This method never worked on its own, they had to use guards to differentiate friend or foe because there wasn't this big difference in intelligence and abilities to make use of.

Notice that the developers could have easily changed zombie jump height to the same as player jump height if they really thought a ladder two blocks up were an exploit (that there are still other exploits is never a good excuse if you can easily close one)

Thing is, this is a game. In games, important portion of it is dangers, that player can overcome with skill. If there is easy way, to overcome it, it stops being a game. There have to be real stakes, if you can cheese the AI, it really undermines the threat.

 

[Feycat]

i was referring to taking out stairs. and the previous comments on how people use 'tactics' that used to be considered cheese and no longer are. removing stairs and pathways that you need to use to get up and the zombies would use to get up to you. is abusing the ai and pure cheese.
I don't even think people consider a ramp that you connect to your base with frames you place/remove or using hatches to get in/out as cheese now.

When was taking out stairs or a ramp EVER considered cheese? Using a ramp as an entrance has been a normal thing forever.

 

[RipClaw]

Thing is, this is a game. In games, important portion of it is dangers, that player can overcome with skill.

You only seem to play certain types of games. Not every game has its dangers. I would be new that the farming simulator has any dangers. Or a game like House Flipper or Cities Skylines.

For me, 7 Days is all about tactics expressed in the base you build. If you have a good tactic then it is not difficult to defeat your opponent.

If there is easy way, to overcome it, it stops being a game. There have to be real stakes, if you can cheese the AI, it really undermines the threat.

Shooting zombies from an elevated position in A17 isn't cheesing. Due to the destruction mode you can be glad if they don't knock everything under you down.

You should watch the following video:

A tower, surrounded by 6000 spikes and at the end it's all useless. The zombies are making their way through the spikes and destroy the tower.

 

[Feycat]

You only seem to play certain types of games. Not every game has its dangers. I would be new that the farming simulator has any dangers. Or a game like House Flipper or Cities Skylines.
For me, 7 Days is all about tactics expressed in the base you build. If you have a good tactic then it is not difficult to defeat your opponent.

Shooting zombies from an elevated position in A17 isn't cheesing. Due to the destruction mode you can be glad if they don't knock everything under you down.

You should watch the following video:

Because that tower is designed for A16 zombies. And spikes aren't made to be a solo defense.

If they filled in that bottom floor they wouldn't have gotten destroyed.

 

[RipClaw]

Because that tower is designed for A16 zombies.

That's why I said that in A17 shooting from an elevated position is no longer cheesing.

Due to the improved pathfinding and the destruction mode these are no longer the same zombies.