PC I Genuinely love this game but I have a couple problems with 1.0

Regarding RWG, I like the new roads. Personally, playing solo, use zero mountains and hills, and minimize lakes and rivers. Most importantly, I set world size to ~4000. Then my trader quests are not impossible. I watched a streamer who, on day 6, had a 2.2 km trip for the second trader (desert) but ran into a mountain and then a river --- was nearly stranded in the desert for the first horde night. Also, BTW, a demon wolf spawned in a tier 2 POI on day 5...instant death in the kitchen. 

 
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Skaarphy said:
Where did they say that? Some off-hand comment on a dev stream? Some response to some guy on reddit? 
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faatal in either a dev diary or patch thread in this forum has mentioned this (I believe it was him) in response to questions about it.  I don't feel like searching for it as there are tons of posts, but that's where I've seen it.

 
GhostlyTurtle said:
I have had trouble with freezing in this game before it just happens sometimes it wasn't that annoying I just dealt with it but since I have been playing 1.0 about every 10 times I open a menu my game freezes for about 5 seconds. This is no matter what quality I am on and whether I am playing with friends or not, I have no other problems in running the game in fact even on blood moons I get no low frames or anything of the sort so I am almost sure this is a game problem and not a computer one.
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Just in case no one mentioned it, the game does garbage collection anytime you open the UI, i.e., inventory, loot, etc. The longer it's been since GC ran the longer it takes. GC is an unavoidable part of Unity games. A couple of alphas ago the decision was made to have GC run when the UI is opened to give players some agency over when it occurs. The feeling being it was better to occur when you open a container or open your inventory than randomly during combat. For me the delay is never more than 1-2 seconds. This will vary based on computer specs of course.

 
Skaarphy said:
How else to explain changes that no one ever asked for
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They themselves asked for them. I have never seen TFP giving the players the right to design THEIR game.

And when they were asked here in the forum they always told us why a change was done. They always had valid reasons for doing something. One still could have a different opinion but it was never about creating castles in the air 😉

 
meganoth said:
They themselves asked for them. I have never seen TFP giving the players the right to design THEIR game.

And when they were asked here in the forum they always told us why a change was done. They always had valid reasons for doing something. One still could have a different opinion but it was never about creating castles in the air 😉
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Valid reasons? I'd love to see the reasoning behind removing clothing but keeping cold and heat protection mods in the game, for which now there's no need whatsoever.

And, speaking of which, I'd love to see the reasoning behind effectively removing cold and heat debuffs from the game altogether. Was that intended, or just a coincidental side effect of removing clothes, which they didn't bother to account for?

Or the reason why it has become impossible to gather water from a body of water. 

Or why in A21 they deemed it absolutely necessary to make water filters available only through traders. And what the @%$# was that, by the way?

So many questions.

And regarding the points I've made above, did they ever mention why you cannot now make RWG maps as you see fit? Why 1.0 absolutely needed these restrictions although that what they were implemented for - allegedly - is still one and a half years in the future?

And, most of all - and again! - why not communicate the reasoning behind significant changes in the patchnotes? "Hey guys, we didn't like the old armor system, we thought it was too simplistic, too much of a one-way-street, so we thought how about armor sets? Blah, blah, blah, reasoning, reasoning, design philosphy, maths, data, facts and stuff, and let us know your thoughts ..." You know, something like that.

Just so people know where they're at. To get an idea what's going on, what they might expect in the future. 

I see none of that. Instead, patchnotes littered with gems like this: "Property for CallGameEvent triggeredEffect to allow client call."

Fascinating. Anybody who gives a @%$# know what that means? 

 
Skaarphy said:
I'd love to see the reasoning behind removing clothing but keeping cold and heat protection mods in the game, for which now there's no need whatsoever.
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For this specific one; they're going to re-create the weather stuff later, and presumably will re-use those mods for it in some form or another. So, removing them would be extra work, if you're just planning to bring them back anyway.

They likely have an internal branch that keeps growing according to some plan; what we see as "stable releases" are short sidebranches from the main dev tree. Whenever they've reached some "required" state in the main branch, they fork an experimental and fix everything that actually breaks gameplay (in whatever areas they deem necessary for testing at the time). Having extra pointless mods doesn't really hurt anything, so they'll stay until deemed pointless for future features.

 
theFlu said:
For this specific one; they're going to re-create the weather stuff later, and presumably will re-use those mods for it in some form or another. So, removing them would be extra work, if you're just planning to bring them back anyway.

They likely have an internal branch that keeps growing according to some plan; what we see as "stable releases" are short sidebranches from the main dev tree. Whenever they've reached some "required" state in the main branch, they fork an experimental and fix everything that actually breaks gameplay (in whatever areas they deem necessary for testing at the time). Having extra pointless mods doesn't really hurt anything, so they'll stay until deemed pointless for future features.
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Thanks for your response, but to be honest with you, all I'm seeing is "presumably" and "likely". Yes, exactly what I mean. 

I mean, I can accept changes. If they're so bad that they make me not want to play the game anymore I'd use mods - once I know the game is stable enough for mods to persist - or quit. But this? Presumably? Likely? That's kind of hopium, isn't it?

It does presume that TFP are competent developers who know what they're doing, and who will see things through to end until their vision is realized. I honestly see no reason to believe that. But I see quite a few red flags to believe otherwise.     

 
Skaarphy said:
Thanks for your response, but to be honest with you, all I'm seeing is "presumably" and "likely". Yes, exactly what I mean.
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Sure, they could be more direct; but explaining every little detail, like the mods, would be a full time job for someone, probably a few someones. And an endless source of pointless back-and forth, without satisfying anyone. Best place to track for news is the "dev diary" on these forums; I don't read it for multiple reasons, mainly wanting to see changes for myself, but some devs seem to post there on occasion.

Skaarphy said:
But this? Presumably? Likely? That's kind of hopium, isn't it?
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Hopium.. nah. That's just standard from any smallish SW project; afaik TFP haven't described their process in detail, but the outcome lines up. I've got a decent background for watching SW dev, TFP are all right for a small studio. I might not agree with what they are planning, but the execution towards it isn't horrible; it looks slow, it is slow, but they're slowly getting .. somewhere :)

 
Skaarphy said:
Valid reasons? I'd love to see the reasoning behind removing clothing but keeping cold and heat protection mods in the game, for which now there's no need whatsoever.
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The usual, a planned feature (weather) wasn't ready when 1.0 came around, so it was **temporarily** turned off. If I remember correctly it was Faatal who said this in the dev-diary thread as answer to the question what happened to weather.

Skaarphy said:
And, speaking of which, I'd love to see the reasoning behind effectively removing cold and heat debuffs from the game altogether. Was that intended, or just a coincidental side effect of removing clothes, which they didn't bother to account for?
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Same reason, weather is planned but not ready for showing up

Skaarphy said:
Or the reason why it has become impossible to gather water from a body of water. 
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Making water scarce, i.e. making it like food a relevant item for survival. For it to be relevant there must not be a virtually endless source for free.

Skaarphy said:
Or why in A21 they deemed it absolutely necessary to make water filters available only through traders. And what the @%$# was that, by the way?

So many questions.
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This was never exactly a question put up to the devs, so never answered. But my guess is that water filters were made a trader item so there would be a reliable source to get dew collectors running in the first days, guaranteed but at a cost. Filters could be found in loot as well, but they made it so seldom that you could not really bank on it. Eventually they changed the system so now the filter is only an optional mod. The reason for that change wasn't asked or answered either (to my knowledge), I assume because players uniformly liked and accepted that change.

Skaarphy said:
And regarding the points I've made above, did they ever mention why you cannot now make RWG maps as you see fit? Why 1.0 absolutely needed these restrictions although that what they were implemented for - allegedly - is still one and a half years in the future?
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RWG is a work in progress. I don't expect them to explain that interim versions may have limitations because of missing features. You may have a point that with 1.0 now there should be some difference in development compared to Early Access, but check out this "official post": https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/35064-version-10-alpha-22-dev-diary/page/138/#comment-563754    . Evidently for them 1.0 is still just a work in progress and we are along for the bumpy ride. The only way to avoid this is really waiting until they declare that the game is finished. I personally have so much fun to play a different version every year that I am happy to go along, your mileage may vary.

Skaarphy said:
And, most of all - and again! - why not communicate the reasoning behind significant changes in the patchnotes?
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Yeah, would be nice. But there seems to be nobody at TFP volunteering for this task.

Skaarphy said:
I see none of that. Instead, patchnotes littered with gems like this: "Property for CallGameEvent triggeredEffect to allow client call."

Fascinating. Anybody who gives a @%$# know what that means? 
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Usually I know what 99% of the changelog lines mean, but not this one. A modder might know.

Changelogs are practically just collections of issue tickets they internally use for development, like practically all software developers of bigger software use.

That is also what changelogs usually look like, though "customers" often have no access to the changelogs at all. And believe me, when you don't have access to them it is a profound disadvantage in case of problems, no matter how cryptic they are.

Understandably translating this to be understandable to people who hardly know how to turn on their computer would be an impossible task. But at what knowledge would they need to draw the line? And again, who should be the poor "sod" who has to do it? But I have good news: There is obviously such a poor sod who makes changelogs understandable once a year when a stable comes out. But it is called "release notes" and they are published on the official website: For 1.0 that would be https://7daystodie.com/v1-0-official-release-notes/ . Though release notes are often short on listing reasons, at least they give a good overview of the changes.

 
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Skaarphy said:
Valid reasons? I'd love to see the reasoning behind removing clothing but keeping cold and heat protection mods in the game, for which now there's no need whatsoever.
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Just because you aren't aware of the reasons doesn't mean they don't exist.  The weather overhaul will require clothing mods for heat and cold.  Spending time removing them from all loot tables only to have to add them all back is a waste of time.  Better to just leave them in until they are once again needed.  The heat/cold resistance of armor that we have now is (unless I'm mistaken) only a temporary thing.  Now, to be clear, this is what I believe to be the reason and may not be entirely accurate or accurate at all.  But in any case, there would still be a reason even if you aren't aware of what it is.

Skaarphy said:
Or the reason why it has become impossible to gather water from a body of water. 

Or why in A21 they deemed it absolutely necessary to make water filters available only through traders. And what the @%$# was that, by the way?
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They have given reasons for not letting you take unlimited water from a water source.  Even if you don't like the reasons, it doesn't make them invalid.  And water filters can also rarely be found in broken dew collectors.  I don't know about the new mods, though.

Skaarphy said:
And regarding the points I've made above, did they ever mention why you cannot now make RWG maps as you see fit? Why 1.0 absolutely needed these restrictions although that what they were implemented for - allegedly - is still one and a half years in the future?
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Although I don't like this change and feel RWG needs to be random (at least optionally), they have reasons for it and I know I mentioned in another post that they do updates in a building block manner, where they start the process in one version and continue it in the next.  I'm not saying that I agree with that being a good development method, but it's what they do.

Skaarphy said:
And, most of all - and again! - why not communicate the reasoning behind significant changes in the patchnotes? "Hey guys, we didn't like the old armor system, we thought it was too simplistic, too much of a one-way-street, so we thought how about armor sets? Blah, blah, blah, reasoning, reasoning, design philosphy, maths, data, facts and stuff, and let us know your thoughts ..." You know, something like that.

Just so people know where they're at. To get an idea what's going on, what they might expect in the future. 
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faatal and others have given a lot of information through the forum about why they do different things.  Patch notes are not the place for commentary.  And they aren't required to explain every decision they make.  You say "significant", but that's subjective.  A minor change that impact stealth game play will not be significant for anyone other than the stealth player it impacts, for example.  I think they do a decent job giving reasons when asked about things on this forum.  That doesn't mean players will agree with the decisions or like them, but they still give reasons when asked.

Skaarphy said:
I see none of that. Instead, patchnotes littered with gems like this: "Property for CallGameEvent triggeredEffect to allow client call."

Fascinating. Anybody who gives a @%$# know what that means? 
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For those it matters to, these things are important.  As I said above, what is significant to one person may not be significant to another.  Now, I am not a modder, so I can't say what that is for, but the wording makes me wonder if it's a fix for buttons and key racks not working if a POI is only server side.  If so, that's a very nice fix for everyone who plays on games with custom POI.

 
Thanks for the replies. I've got some answers to my questions but I have to say I'm not sure they're good answers. They might be, and if I were less angry with TFP I would probably be able to see it otherwise, I guess.

Symptomatic, as far as I'm concerned: Why can't you gather water from a body of water? The answer, apparently, is to make it a scarce resource.

That's true, but only for the first few days. Get a gatherer and a tarp for roughly 2000 dukes all in all and - together with looting - your single dew collector will provide more water than you'll ever need. 

So it seems to me a very immersive mechanic has been sacrificed for the benefit of basically nothing. Right? For something that will become a non-issue long before the first week is over.

How about this for an alternative: Water gathered from bodies of water can give you radiation poisoning, either by a build-up or by a percentage chance. You can find - and later craft - anti-radiation chems that will turn that water into murky water. 

Alternatively, drinking it can make you become infected. Again, with some form of remedy that can be found or crafted and removes that possibility.

Or, just make it undrinkable because lethal (eg.: by radiation poisoning, with no remedy), and only usable for making glue and sham sandwiches and the like. Would that really be so problematic? Oh no, I have all the water I need to make glue! The horror!

And even if that is seriously undesired - because not being able to make as much glue as you want in the first few days is just vital for the game - just make bones more scarce, or the recipe more expensive, bone-wise. Which coincidentally would also upgrade the value of super corn?  

So many possibilities. You can't nilly-willy use water from lakes and rivers anymore - or it's less useful - and immersion is still intact. And players don't go asking why the @%$# they can't collect water from bodies of water. No gamey, shoehorning mechanics needed.

Were alternatives like the above never considered by TFP? Hard to imagine. And if they were why were they rejected? And in favor of that nonsense that we got, out of all things.

But again, thanks for the answers. Some really do make sense though, I have to admit, despite me being in rant-mode.  

 
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Skaarphy said:
That's true, but only for the first few days. Get a gatherer and a tarp for roughly 2000 dukes all in all and - together with looting - your single dew collector will provide more water than you'll ever need. 

So it seems to me a very immersive mechanic has been sacrificed for the benefit of basically nothing. Right? For something that will become a non-issue long before the first week is over.
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Weeell, TFP have also said that food and water should be problems the player "solves" in early game. And like water food is a problem in the first days and gradually is "solved" in early game. "solved" as in you have a reliable source you can depend upon.

If someone still has food problems in week 2 he has done something wrong. You usually have enough food and water in the later game but they are still useful to you and worth enough that you won't throw them away immediately if you find them in loot and still have room left.

 
Skaarphy said:
How about this for an alternative: Water gathered from bodies of water can give you radiation poisoning, either by a build-up or by a percentage chance. You can find - and later craft - anti-radiation chems that will turn that water into murky water. 

Alternatively, drinking it can make you become infected. Again, with some form of remedy that can be found or crafted and removes that possibility.

Or, just make it undrinkable because lethal (eg.: by radiation poisoning, with no remedy), and only usable for making glue and sham sandwiches and the like. Would that really be so problematic? Oh no, I have all the water I need to make glue! The horror!

And even if that is seriously undesired - because not being able to make as much glue as you want in the first few days is just vital for the game - just make bones more scarce, or the recipe more expensive, bone-wise. Which coincidentally would also upgrade the value of super corn?
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What is so absurd about limiting glue production that you drop a pint of sarcasm on it? Thats what game developers do, limit stuff so players have something to do to craft their stuff. Players who don't want this can play walking simulators and cookie clickers 😉 (speaking generally, I don't mean you. All survival games have repetitive recurring tasks one has to do to survive, some more, some less.)

I think it is also vital in the later game that the player doesn't get glue for free. He either has to deploy a massive amount of dew collectors and collect from them once in a while, or drop down only a few collectors and dilligently collect from them to craft all the glue needed for higher recipes.

Skaarphy said:
Were alternatives like the above never considered by TFP? Hard to imagine. And if they were why were they rejected? And in favor of that nonsense that we got, out of all things.
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Probably they were, but for some reason or other they were seen as less desirable. Everyone has different criteria.

 
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meganoth said:
Weeell, TFP have also said that food and water should be problems the player "solves" in early game. And like water food is a problem in the first days and gradually is "solved" in early game. "solved" as in you have a reliable source you can depend upon.

If someone still has food problems in week 2 he has done something wrong. You usually have enough food and water in the later game but they are still useful to you and worth enough that you won't throw them away immediately if you find them in loot and still have room left.
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The thing is letting us collect water from lakes still doesn't give us drinking water. Dysentery is a @%$# and we can't even use dirty water to make glue out of. So there is a cost involved in getting fuel and you need a cooking pot, and then these things take time. This game being a lot about time management, time is a resource, especially early game.

So as most of y'all involved in these discussions know, I'm using a mod that lets me collect water from ponds. It really affects my early game very little, because I've got enough to do those first few days and I will get enough water to drink from quests/looting/etc so making water scarce really isn't a good argument. 

I still say the white elephant in the room is glue.

Also, playing an older version right now, I gotta say it is a lot less tedious when you can take a stack of jars and fill them all in 1 swipe.

 
meganoth said:
What is so absurd about limiting glue production that you drop a pint of sarcasm on it? Thats what game developers do, limit stuff so players have something to do to craft their stuff. Players who don't want this can play walking simulators and cookie clickers 😉

I think it is also vital in the later game that the player doesn't get glue for free. He either has to deploy a massive amount of dew collectors and collect from them once in a while, or drop down only a few collectors and dilligently collect from them to craft all the glue needed for higher recipes.
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Because glue and duct tape should be the 7DTD meme like clay used to be for Minecraft. I bet Madmole is a glue-eater 😛

I'm glad you brought up late game. That is exactly where it shows how absurd it was in A21 (w/o modding). I had so much crap by the end of that game I don't know what to do with it. I can't be bothered to store it, and I can't even sell anymore of it to the traders, besides then I don't know where to put the dukes. Yet glue and duct tape are the only things lacking. I mean I couldn't even be bothered with yet another QL6 sniper rifle but I don't have enough glue??? That is absurd.

 
Krougal said:
The thing is letting us collect water from lakes still doesn't give us drinking water.
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Just as a comparison. In previous alphas before dew collectors my friends and I were usually throwing away water we found to save inventory space, maybe not on day 1, but as soon as we had a base. So water was generally less worth than an inventory slot to us. This has changed at least. Other players may see it differently, it is highly subjective.

Krougal said:
Because glue and duct tape should be the 7DTD meme like clay used to be for Minecraft. I bet Madmole is a glue-eater 😛

I'm glad you brought up late game. That is exactly where it shows how absurd it was in A21 (w/o modding). I had so much crap by the end of that game I don't know what to do with it. I can't be bothered to store it, and I can't even sell anymore of it to the traders, besides then I don't know where to put the dukes. Yet glue and duct tape are the only things lacking. I mean I couldn't even be bothered with yet another QL6 sniper rifle but I don't have enough glue??? That is absurd.
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How much glue you produce is entirely on you, how much bones you get and how much dew collectors you set up. Since you "balance" that yourself you can essentially do what the industry calls "built-to-order". In other words, if you wanted you could have stacks of glue as well, just by over-producing

Money is balanced by the game and due to trader rewards being absurd in A21 you simply amass that when doing quests but don't really have money sinks to get rid of it again. Partly a thing of the game being not finished with end game and not finished with balancing

 
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