I gave storms a chance but im glad they are being changed

[theFlu]

The fun lies in fighting under challenging conditions.

If the conditions are actually challenging, you're better off just waiting it out. Now you're again just waiting for the storm to pass. Or completely unaffected. It's hard not to make it a binary of wait/unaffected. If it's meaningful, it's going to feel punishing.

 

[grz__]

What happens is always the same. You go outside and suffer damage, or you stay inside and suffer no damage. There are no unknowns.

No, you can't know when a storm is going to hit; there's always the unknown. You can be caught off guard at any moment

The fun lies in fighting under challenging conditions. You have to adapt to the situation. Rather than using power attacks constantly, you have to conserve your stamina as you did on the first day. If you're slow, you can't just run away, so you have to be careful not to attract too many zombies by firing guns indiscriminately.

If players take damage just for being outside, the only thing you achieve is that they stay inside and stare at the wall.

That's your opinion, but for me, endurance and speed penalties are already present in other aspects of the game, so why should it be the same in storms? For me, it would be a reason to disable storms. You can argue that you don't like them, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean storms are bad just because they kill you and you don't like them. I've already given my suggestions on this many times, and the most important one is !an option to calibrate storms according to individual preferences!

 

[Lax]

In Antarctica if you toss hot, boiling water out into the cold, it turns to ice before it hits the ground. There is a legit argument for punishing, life threatening weather.

 

[Mister Forgash]

As it stands, right now it feels really bad if you're wrapping up a quest and a storm's coming, pretty much locking you inside.. Sure you can break down the location further, but chances are you'll still be stuck there doing nothing for quite some time. At first, I was excited for storms, I had boosted them to 200% for my first impressions, then back to 100.. then to 50, then I just disabled them altogether- I think this is concerning because normally I'm all for mechanics like that slow down progression, but also I think there's been an overwhelming outcry that they need some kind of alterations.

If we argue like that, we could as well argue that zombies should not drain your health but give you only debuffs when they attack. Because if one is directly before you and noticed you there is one option you don't have, stand around and for example reorganize your inventory.

Is that really a really a good faith argument? I think the issue, or at least part of it, is that a storm lasts for like 10 minutes or something. Longer than it would take to clear back to back to back screamer hordes. I believe the ways in which a storm poses a threat can be shifted but still be restrictive in a different way that continues to achieve an endgoal of 'it's not safe to be outside' while at the same time not feeling like you've been placed in time out.

 

[Ralathar44]

I've already given my opinion on this many times, but I'll say it again.

Storms should be dangerous in themselves; they should kill you. I understand that some people don't like them, but that doesn't mean storms are bad. Besides, they can be disabled in the menu. Since 2.0 came out, I've been asking for an option in the menu to calibrate the intensity: more damage, less damage, longer duration, shorter duration, intensity, frequency, etc.



Unfortunately, it's likely that tfp will end up nerfing the storm for everyone so much that it will lose its concept of storms killing you, and I'll have to install another mod to the endless list.



What some detractors of storms don't understand is that the beauty of storms is that they create adrenaline-fueled, intense, and dangerous situations, and that's what makes it fun, especially if you play with permadeath. If you don't like that concept, that's fine, but it doesn't mean it's bad, as some people try to make it seem.



Now, what could be improved about storms? In my opinion, the edges of the biomes would be the priority. As others have already mentioned, you go from a sunny, wonderful day to hell in just one block. I would make the storm warning text messages optional, and maybe add a protective suit for the late game to temporarily mitigate the effects until it breaks.

What happens is always the same. You go outside and suffer damage, or you stay inside and suffer no damage. There are no unknowns.

The fun lies in fighting under challenging conditions. You have to adapt to the situation. Rather than using power attacks constantly, you have to conserve your stamina as you did on the first day. If you're slow, you can't just run away, so you have to be careful not to attract too many zombies by firing guns indiscriminately.

If players take damage just for being outside, the only thing you achieve is that they stay inside and stare at the wall.

The problem with each of these quotes is that for each person their answer is correct. The issue is that this affects everyone. So each person's ideal game is someone else's nightmare lol.

Most players would hate movement speed slows and attack speed slows in the storm. Not only that but with injuries that can cause this already and also armor/encumbrance an attack speed or movement speed slow could quickly become horrifically oppressive when stacked. That is why I quickly ruled out those debuffs in my idea above.

Similarly there ARE plenty of people who don't like the idea of "I'm forced to stay inside. Especially since you have many situations like "ok im full of loot and its time to go back to baa....and a storm. Well i dont have the room to loot anything and there is no other closeby POI anyways. Guess i'll sit here with my thumb up my...yeah."

So while I personally, as expressed above with my bear pic, enjoy the pressure I can also understand its potential problems.

That's why, in the admittedly off the cuff idea I had before, I balanced the damage to where it would 100% kill you on its own eventually, prolly twice, without self healing if you ignored it. But its also something that provides MORE flexibility and options. And while yes you could certainly heal tank it with damage being 3 damage per 10 seconds, you can also heal tank entire loot rooms on normal difficulty with decent armor lol. And I dont think the ability to counterplay things is bad per se, so long is there is a significant cost to it or that level of eventual power fantasy is the expectation.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Try punching a storm.

Wow, that gives a whole new meaning to, breaking wind.
And so a team-mate handing you fuel would be passing gas.

So does that mean that refusing to give a team-mate a pile of
poo found in a toilet, but them giving you fuel for your vehicle,
while you are swinging at the storm. One of you is passing gas, the other is
attempting to break wind, and all while not giving a crap, during the storm?

 

[HammerDano]

In Antarctica if you toss hot, boiling water out into the cold, it turns to ice before it hits the ground. There is a legit argument for punishing, life threatening weather.

too extreme an example for me...there's lots of places in Canada and Continental USA that will freeze the balls off a brass monkey. lol

I am personally not against damaging weather, I love game "the long dark". especially because you can make gear that greatly reduces that storm damage...lets you, not only survive the storm outdoors, but, travel if you wish. Not a perfect, apples to apples example, because part of it is allowing you to "sleep" or "pass time" in warmth, thru the storm. If you don't have that gear...you are in panic mode to find enough shelter to make a fire and hope. You are still tied down to survival in their storms...it just feels satisfying to have game mechanics that allow you a range from: fight for life or thrive. It's also satisfying that the survival gear you can make...is not easy to obtain, needs to be maintained, and takes a good chunk of backpack space.

I wish them luck balancing the storms...because like the long dark, I want to enjoy the visuals, see how it screws with sense of direction...learn how the zombie behavior is changed.

 

[grz__]

The problem with each of these quotes is that for each person their answer is correct. The issue is that this affects everyone. So each person's ideal game is someone else's nightmare lol.

Most players would hate movement speed slows and attack speed slows in the storm. Not only that but with injuries that can cause this already and also armor/encumbrance an attack speed or movement speed slow could quickly become horrifically oppressive when stacked. That is why I quickly ruled out those debuffs in my idea above.

Similarly there ARE plenty of people who don't like the idea of "I'm forced to stay inside. Especially since you have many situations like "ok im full of loot and its time to go back to baa....and a storm. Well i dont have the room to loot anything and there is no other closeby POI anyways. Guess i'll sit here with my thumb up my...yeah."

So while I personally, as expressed above with my bear pic, enjoy the pressure I can also understand its potential problems.

That's why, in the admittedly off the cuff idea I had before, I balanced the damage to where it would 100% kill you on its own eventually, prolly twice, without self healing if you ignored it. But its also something that provides MORE flexibility and options. And while yes you could certainly heal tank it with damage being 3 damage per 10 seconds, you can also heal tank entire loot rooms on normal difficulty with decent armor lol. And I dont think the ability to counterplay things is bad per se, so long is there is a significant cost to it or that level of eventual power fantasy is the expectation.

And that's the dilemma with this game and player feedback: what some see as good, others see as terrible. That's why, since 2.0, I've been saying that they should implement configuration options for those who don't know how to modify XML or code. It's like the water jars: some people thought it was wrong to remove them, others thought it was right, and others didn't care. There are things in the game that I don't like, but I've gotten used to them or accepted them. I just install a mod if I don't like something, although sometimes I don't even do that. I think TFP has a headache with this game, trying to please everyone, and in the end, they end up modifying something in a way that doesn't convince anyone.

​

 

[RipClaw]

In Antarctica if you toss hot, boiling water out into the cold, it turns to ice before it hits the ground.

That's a party trick. It's called the Mpemba effect. It works at temperatures as low as -15°C (5°F), which is easily tolerable when wearing winter clothing. The same trick wouldn't work with cold water.

 

[Rotor]

Hence why gear gameplay is important, and why the implementation of the storms was so lacking.

 

[Lax]

too extreme an example for me...there's lots of places in Canada and Continental USA that will freeze the balls off a brass monkey. lol

I am personally not against damaging weather, I love game "the long dark". especially because you can make gear that greatly reduces that storm damage...lets you, not only survive the storm outdoors, but, travel if you wish. Not a perfect, apples to apples example, because part of it is allowing you to "sleep" or "pass time" in warmth, thru the storm. If you don't have that gear...you are in panic mode to find enough shelter to make a fire and hope. You are still tied down to survival in their storms...it just feels satisfying to have game mechanics that allow you a range from: fight for life or thrive. It's also satisfying that the survival gear you can make...is not easy to obtain, needs to be maintained, and takes a good chunk of backpack space.

I wish them luck balancing the storms...because like the long dark, I want to enjoy the visuals, see how it screws with sense of direction...learn how the zombie behavior is changed.

Great example of extreme weather survival. There's cold, then there's bone chilling cold. Better get dat hiney indoors or suffer!

 

[Ralathar44]

And that's the dilemma with this game and player feedback: what some see as good, others see as terrible. That's why, since 2.0, I've been saying that they should implement configuration options for those who don't know how to modify XML or code. It's like the water jars: some people thought it was wrong to remove them, others thought it was right, and others didn't care. There are things in the game that I don't like, but I've gotten used to them or accepted them. I just install a mod if I don't like something, although sometimes I don't even do that. I think TFP has a headache with this game, trying to please everyone, and in the end, they end up modifying something in a way that doesn't convince anyone.

I wouldn't say that, they've clearly done well so far considering player numbers and player growth over years. While its true no design can please everyone perfectly some designs are better than others at reaching the vast majority of people's satisfaction.

And the even wider ranging major feature configuration options for the tech dumb end user is coming eventually. That's what steam mods are for.

 

[grz__]

I wouldn't say that, they've clearly done well so far considering player numbers and player growth over years. While its true no design can please everyone perfectly some designs are better than others at reaching the vast majority of people's satisfaction.

And the even wider ranging major feature configuration options for the tech dumb end user is coming eventually. That's what steam mods are for.

The game definitely remains unique and fun despite certain design decisions, and while mods are a lifesaver in some cases, they don't always suit everyone's tastes, Otherwise, there would be no complaints, because I think there are already mods that change storm damage to debuffs and things like that.
which is why I insist on configuration options that I hope will be available in the future.

 

[Lax]

Imagine being able to survive outside during a storm, with the right upgraded gear but your visibility is near zero and the wind so loud, intense that you don't hear or see that Zed or animal attack until the last second they're right on top of you!

That could be fun gameplay. Very high risk for being outside during the storm.

 

[meganoth]

I can fight back against a zombie. Try punching a storm.

Since when is survival about fighting everything? Do you fight hunger by punching meat? This isn't a pure shooter game. You couldn't as well fight back against heat or cold when it was in the game, but you could diminish or remove its effects, just like you can with storms.

I suspect it is mostly about mining if you say you want to be outside, right? What prevents you from either building a small roof above your mine entrance or dig sideways, once underground, to be safe from storms?

Why do you insist that the storms should cause damage to the player instead of saying, “We'll make it harder for the player to survive if they insist on staying outside”. In my opinion, it's a much more interesting game mechanic than just a boring “you're outside and take damage, you're inside and don't take damage.”

Survive what? If I am on a minibike driving around I don't care whether I am more vulnerable.
And 90% of my time outside is driving around and most of the suggestions would simply mean I could ignore it completely. Who cares if I get more easily hit by zombies when I can avoid being hit.

So lets say players AND necessarily vehicles are slowed in addition to whatever makes the player more vulnerable. Now we have won the abilitiy to survive the weather even outside. Though driving around is heavily constricted.

Depending on balance players will simply not drive around in a storm because they can't get anywhere in reasonable time and surviving the drive would be just random luck that you can't really influence. Or, if the debuffs are too weak players would ignore it. Somewhere there may be a balance suitable for the majority of the players but it will be hard finding it with 3 different debuffs, different vehicles and different player abilities.
And speaking for myself, I would not like a slowed minibike and point to the 90% as my reason for not liking it. Even though I grant you that with a suitable balance, yes, it could be a bit more interesting, aka more unpredictable, mechanic.

 

[meganoth]

As it stands, right now it feels really bad if you're wrapping up a quest and a storm's coming, pretty much locking you inside.. Sure you can break down the location further, but chances are you'll still be stuck there doing nothing for quite some time. At first, I was excited for storms, I had boosted them to 200% for my first impressions, then back to 100.. then to 50, then I just disabled them altogether- I think this is concerning because normally I'm all for mechanics like that slow down progression, but also I think there's been an overwhelming outcry that they need some kind of alterations.

This has happened to me as well. But it is the exception, in almost all cases I still have other options, for example I can simply put my full inventory in a chest (often I have one placed there already anyway) and enter a neighborhood POI. The question is, would I do something different if for example I am so far weakened that random encounters with zombies on the street would kill me in say 1 out of 5 cases?
There is a very difficult balance problem here, as the danger would be different for players with different armor for example. If the debuffs slow the player down then heavy armor players would just ignore storms while light armor players relying on their speed would be seriously pinned down. If not, light armor players would ignore storms while heavy armor players might be in trouble if the debuffs are serious enough. The damage-over-time on the other hand influences all the same way.

Is that really a really a good faith argument? I think the issue, or at least part of it, is that a storm lasts for like 10 minutes or something. Longer than it would take to clear back to back to back screamer hordes. I believe the ways in which a storm poses a threat can be shifted but still be restrictive in a different way that continues to achieve an endgoal of 'it's not safe to be outside' while at the same time not feeling like you've been placed in time out.

Re good faith argument: This is similar to how inflationary "play style" was used at one time for anything you do in a game. That is why I don*t agree to "you can't endure the storm outside". Yes you can, as long as you have something to stand under every 75 seconds, longer if you accept to use some bandages. By demanding that you have to be outside for all of the duration of the storm and not do anything different (if you just accept some higher danger in case of debuffs) you practically say that any change in the game that forces you to adapt in the slightest is already removing an option completely.

How can a storm have consequences at all if it doesn't lead you to change what you are doing? If you don't need to do anything different because a storm is happening, that is almost the definition of "ignoring a storm".

But I agree that currently the storms are probably too frequent or last too long or the DoT is too high. And most likely it is the duration as even a much shorter storm would force you to adapt as well but in the cases where it really makes you wait, the wait is shorter.

 

[ZehMatt]

In my humble opinion, storms shouldn't damage the player, if its radiation then it makes sense but the player should have an option to combat the situation, after all this is a survival game and to survive a harsh environment it would be nice to have corresponding gear to deal with the situation, having the player flee is quite the odd decision and is not really fun, storm is coming go ■■■■ off and hide, is how I interpret it currently. I think there is a missed opportunity to have a truly unique gear system, for snow storms you want a good outfit to stay warm, for radiation you want a specialized suit and so on, this would also add a feeling of actual progression and would not be as linear as it currently is, if you find a suit then you can explore what you could not before. I'm sure some will disagree but a lot of people also like to have literal lines drawn infront of them on where to go in games, it's usually a question of what sort of audience you target but catering to the lowest denominator isn't wise.

 

[Mister Forgash]

This has happened to me as well. But it is the exception, in almost all cases I still have other options, for example I can simply put my full inventory in a chest (often I have one placed there already anyway) and enter a neighborhood POI. The question is, would I do something different if for example I am so far weakened that random encounters with zombies on the street would kill me in say 1 out of 5 cases?
There is a very difficult balance problem here, as the danger would be different for players with different armor for example. If the debuffs slow the player down then heavy armor players would just ignore storms while light armor players relying on their speed would be seriously pinned down. If not, light armor players would ignore storms while heavy armor players might be in trouble if the debuffs are serious enough. The damage-over-time on the other hand influences all the same way.

The current iterations DoT is so punishing that unless you've got medical supplies to burn, there's no point in trying to traverse during the storm.
I think a movespeed penalty still make sense, (sure it will need more balancing, most everything needs a little touch up.) I know it's not fun to travel while movespeed debuffed, but if you're pretty much locked in place as is, then it's a pretty nice upgrade, combined with faster, more agressive Z's and (lower tier) vehicles being hard to use in the storm and I think if anything we'd see players attempt to push through the storm, sometimes with success, sometimes to get swarmed.

Re good faith argument: This is similar to how inflationary "play style" was used at one time for anything you do in a game. That is why I don*t agree to "you can't endure the storm outside". Yes you can, as long as you have something to stand under every 75 seconds, longer if you accept to use some bandages. By demanding that you have to be outside for all of the duration of the storm and not do anything different (if you just accept some higher danger in case of debuffs) you practically say that any change in the game that forces you to adapt in the slightest is already removing an option completely.

Unless they've been changed since I last played, you gotta stop under shelter every minute and eat another bandage if you're trying to get anywhere. At no point did I suggest you should have to be able to stand outside in the storm with no consequence, or without doing anything different. -For the record, I think it makes sense that the storm damages you(But at like half it's current rate) - or perhaps adds a stacking debuff that lowers max XP that is recovered by waiting indoors. I don't know why you insist that by wanting changes to them means I want them to be ignorable completely- quite the contrary, I ignore them completely now because I've shut them off- and it seems many other have as well, even TFP are reworking them, and I'm hoping that the next implementation will feel like something I want to be present in the world and that I want to engage with.

 

[RipClaw]

Since when is survival about fighting everything? Do you fight hunger by punching meat? This isn't a pure shooter game. You couldn't as well fight back against heat or cold when it was in the game, but you could diminish or remove its effects, just like you can with storms.

No, in the current implementation, you can only eat one bandage after another to heal, but you can't do anything to reduce the effects of the storm while you're outside. Imagine a player being attacked by a zombie and simply eating bandages in response instead of fighting back or running away. Sounds pretty stupid, but that's exactly what you and some others in this forum are suggesting as a countermeasure against a storm.

I suspect it is mostly about mining if you say you want to be outside, right? What prevents you from either building a small roof above your mine entrance or dig sideways, once underground, to be safe from storms?

No, I can mine resources underground during a storm without any problems. I know that.

It's just that storms are extremely annoying. You set foot outside and immediately the countdown starts, and when it reaches zero, your character makes a groaning sound and you lose HP for no other reason than being outside. In that short time, I can't even load my loot into my vehicle without taking damage. It's just annoying. Or imagine you're a player who likes to build their base in the desert or in the snow. You're out building, and when the storm comes, you have to seek shelter and can only twiddle your thumbs until it's over.

Survive what? If I am on a minibike driving around I don't care whether I am more vulnerable.

You always argue based on the assumption that the player has some kind of motorized vehicle at their disposal and never that they might be traveling on foot or, relatively early in the game, by bicycle. You might as well assume that the player has an M60 and an inventory full of ammunition at all times.

And I find it funny when people say they don't like debuffs. That's the whole point of a debuff. It's something that puts you at a disadvantage. You have to figure out how to compensate for that disadvantage, either through tactics or other methods.

 

[Lax]

...It's just that storms are extremely annoying...

Yup

... when the storm comes, you have to seek shelter and can only twiddle your thumbs until it's over....

This is the beef I think most have with storms. Inconvenient, interrupts current plans and comes across as boring, not fun.

Kinda reminds me of traveling long distances in Elite Dangerous as you jump from one Star System to another.

What can a player do as they wait out the storm?

How long should players have to wait?

Should players have to wait at all?

Does "all" gameplay need to be fun?

Percentage of players who do mind waiting vs those who don't?