PC I Finally Tried the Drone

[Roland]

Therefor we are back to the age old question, fun or immersion and the ultimate balance .... or anthropic principle .  Depending on which science and religion you subscribe. Yes, I cheated and looked that one up.

The fun is what TFP is going for but fun defined by them as they are the designers. We are along for the ride and there will be a portion of the players whose "science and religion" line up perfectly with what TFP wants to do and they will think the game is the most amazing thing they've ever played and will be hooked for thousands of hours.

There will also be those who feel differently. Of those some will mod the game so that it fits their vision of what is fun and they will be happy and satisfied and grateful that the game is mod friendly.

Others will mod the game but do so bitterly decrying the practice as a necessary evil to fix what the developer couldn't do and go on and on about how sad it is that modding must exist.

The rest will play the game and say, "meh", and move on to something that is more fun for them.

We don't have to worry about how fun the game is except for ourselves and we have a bit of control over that if we are willing to take steps. We can use existing mods that seem more fun to us and we can control how we play for those things that can't be modded or haven't been modded yet. We can give feedback about what we think would be more fun if it was included in the base game but in the end TFP is going to do what they see as fun.

 

[Rotor]

And here I thought we were investors in TFP....../runs

 

[RipClaw]

What is more of a static gameplay result? Being able to purchase crafting skills so that you always have all your traps in place by Day 14 and the next 10-20 hordenights play out exactly as they have always played out ever since A17 when you were first able to deterministically focus your points on getting traps going ASAP----or----having no control over when you finally acquire the knowledge for traps so that the day they finally enter the game is variable and perhaps up to the first several hordenights you have to do things one way before you can finally switch to doing it all with traps?

If it were only the recipes that you can unlock via skills, then you could say that the new system brings some variation here, but it also affects the recipes for which you currently need a schematic like all T2 and T3 tools and weapons.

Do you remember "Minibikes For Dumb@%$#s" or the "Forge Ahead" book? Do you remember the times when you were lucky and found these books early in the game, or when you were unlucky and found them very later or not at all?

 

[Laz Man]

If it were only the recipes that you can unlock via skills, then you could say that the new system brings some variation here, but it also affects the recipes for which you currently need a schematic like all T2 and T3 tools and weapons.

Do you remember "Minibikes For Dumb@%$#s" or the "Forge Ahead" book? Do you remember the times when you were lucky and found these books early in the game, or when you were unlucky and found them very later or not at all?

The good news is this iteration is better when compared to the forge ahead / mini bike 4 dummies days.  Back then it was all or nothing.  The new system is more gradual and the RNG is less punishing since the magazines helps the player unlock a pool of recipes.

 

[RipClaw]

The good news is this iteration is better when compared to the forge ahead / mini bike 4 dummies days.  Back then it was all or nothing.  The new system is more gradual and the RNG is less punishing since the magazines helps the player unlock a pool of recipes.

It was exactly this "all or nothing" that made playthroughs so different that the players remembered these. I don't think it's as memorable to have the minibike just a few days earlier or later than usual.

I'm sure the new system will have many benefits for many players but it seems to me that the developers are throwing away something important without realising its value. Actually, we've been at a point like this before. Remember A17 when there were no more schematics ?

 

[Roland]

You can still get something early if you happen to find a preponderance of that kind of magazine. There won't ever again be a Day 2 Minibikes for Dumb@%$#s schematic but as exciting as something like that is, it kind of ruins that game anyway. 

I've joined a team game in progress where my family had already been playing for a week before I could join and as soon as I started I was handed stuff that let me skip the whole beginning primitive stuff and it wasn't as much fun. You will still get stuff early. It may not be the ability to craft an SMG by the second week but it might be an actual SMG that you can use.

There are 23 different skill ladders to climb and the game does not manage things to make sure you climb them all at an even rate. That would be a game on rails for sure. You will speed up some and crawl up others and steadily progress in others and that mix will be different each game and you will still be able to randomly find a lucky item early on.

I've restarted about five times now since the new system has been in place and every play has felt different and what I could craft vs what I was able to find and use never felt like a bland retreading along the same simple path just like the last restart and the restart before that. 

 

[RipClaw]

You can still get something early if you happen to find a preponderance of that kind of magazine. There won't ever again be a Day 2 Minibikes for Dumb@%$#s schematic but as exciting as something like that is, it kind of ruins that game anyway. 

It's not only about finding something early, but also about finding it very late or not at all. This is a challenge when you reach a dead point that you have to overcome.

I've joined a team game in progress where my family had already been playing for a week before I could join and as soon as I started I was handed stuff that let me skip the whole beginning primitive stuff and it wasn't as much fun. You will still get stuff early. It may not be the ability to craft an SMG by the second week but it might be an actual SMG that you can use.

This is more of a multiplayer-specific phenomenon. As a single player, there is no one to hand me the endgame equipment.

There are 23 different skill ladders to climb and the game does not manage things to make sure you climb them all at an even rate. That would be a game on rails for sure. You will speed up some and crawl up others and steadily progress in others and that mix will be different each game and you will still be able to randomly find a lucky item early on.

That is why I wrote "The speed may vary but it always follows the tracks". Whether these different speeds are enough to maintain the replay value remains to be seen.

I've restarted about five times now since the new system has been in place and every play has felt different and what I could craft vs what I was able to find and use never felt like a bland retreading along the same simple path just like the last restart and the restart before that. 

Since I can't try it out myself until the first experimental is released, I can only take your word for it.

 

[Oliwhere]

There are 23 different skill ladders to climb and the game does not manage things to make sure you climb them all at an even rate. That would be a game on rails for sure. You will speed up some and crawl up others and steadily progress in others and that mix will be different each game and you will still be able to randomly find a lucky item early on.

I've restarted about five times now since the new system has been in place and every play has felt different and what I could craft vs what I was able to find and use never felt like a bland retreading along the same simple path just like the last restart and the restart before that. 

I've recently wondered how the different loot bonuses in the 4 diffent biomes play into this new crafting progression.

If the goal is to keep the crafting progression always slightly ahead of the quality of items that you loot, will this be only true for the forrest biome or will this apply to looting in the snow or wasteland as well?

If this applies to all biomes, does that mean that you find magazines more often  and in larger stack sizes in the more difficult biomes?

 

[Roland]

It's not only about finding something early, but also about finding it very late or not at all. This is a challenge when you reach a dead point that you have to overcome.

I think you’ll find that feeling remains intact. It is still random and there is no guarantee of finding enough magazines in an unperked category to be able to craft those items in its tree. I suspect there will be frustrated people complaining about having to go without just like there is now. 
 

This is more of a multiplayer-specific phenomenon. As a single player, there is no one to hand me the endgame equipment.

I know. The point is that RNG handing you a blue auger on day two is much like your brother saying “There’s a blue auger in the tool chest” on your second day of joining.

I've recently wondered how the different loot bonuses in the 4 diffent biomes play into this new crafting progression.

If the goal is to keep the crafting progression always slightly ahead of the quality of items that you loot, will this be only true for the forrest biome or will this apply to looting in the snow or wasteland as well?

If this applies to all biomes, does that mean that you find magazines more often  and in larger stack sizes in the more difficult biomes?

There is no goal to ensure that you can craft items at a better quality than you can find them or buy them. It just so happens that for some things— particularly what you perk into, you often can craft at a better level than you can loot in A21 than happens now. 
 

But if you play in a way that jacks up your Lootstage such as going to the wasteland straight off then you probably will find more stuff at a higher tier than you can currently craft. There is no mechanism in place to increase magazines to keep your crafting abilities always ahead of your looting stage.

 

[Rotor]

I think you’ll find that feeling remains intact. It is still random and there is no guarantee of finding enough magazines in an unperked category to be able to craft those items in its tree. I suspect there will be frustrated people complaining about having to go without just like there is now. 
 

I know. The point is that RNG handing you a blue auger on day two is much like your brother saying “There’s a blue auger in the tool chest” on your second day of joining.

Not quite, one is random the other is not.  

 

[Oliwhere]

There is no goal to ensure that you can craft items at a better quality than you can find them or buy them. It just so happens that for some things— particularly what you perk into, you often can craft at a better level than you can loot in A21 than happens now. 
 

But if you play in a way that jacks up your Lootstage such as going to the wasteland straight off then you probably will find more stuff at a higher tier than you can currently craft. There is no mechanism in place to increase magazines to keep your crafting abilities always ahead of your looting stage.

I think the question that I'm trying to ask is: In which biome does crafting your own gear become obsolete, because the item quality you loot - even while focusing on magazines - does surpass the quality that you can craft?

I would be okay, if living in the wasteland also means it' s also a no-crafting playthrough , but if I decided to live in the winter or dessert biome for a playthrough, it would be disappointing if this also automatically means that crafting your own gear isn't worthwhile.

So I think that getting the balance between the quality of found loot and the players crafting potential right seems important with the new system. Ideally this would then allow crafting to be a meaningful part of the gameplay for more than just the easiest biome and the beginning of the game.

Maybe playtesting a dessert/winter biome only world could give some insights where the break-even point of looting and crafting actually occurrs?

Gonna give it a try, as soon as I get the chance to do so

 

[Oliwhere]

BTW, quick question, is each items probability rolled every time or in the Genesis the RnGeezus saz "Thou shalt not find wheels this palythrough"?

The quick answer would be : Probably both

The more detailed one:

When the game tries to fill a loot container with items it is done the moment you open it. It calls the RNG several times for a random number and depending on the range this number falls in, a certain item from the loot list is chosen. Typically the RNG generates random number between 0 and 1 and the range for items is calculated from the container loot list. So for example if the range for wheels in a Pass'N'Gas crate is 0.47 - 0.5 and you roll a 0.4833 - you get a wheel in that crate.

Regarding your destiny in the book of Genesis:

The 7DTD RNG seems to be using an initial seed that is based on the world seed - that means all numbers that the generator will generate can be calculated / predicted.

So indeed your fate is already fixed at world creation - but the good thing is that you don't know yet what will happen. Also as a player you also have the freedom to perform random actions (do I loot this container first or the other one?) and so change your fate.

 

[Roland]

Not quite, one is random the other is not.  

I think you are being intentionally dense but regardless, I was never saying that the manner in which you get the auger is the same. I would hope you'd give me enough  credit to not think that I was mistaking what you claimed I was mistaking. It should have been obvious that I was talking about the end result which is the same. However you get an early OP tool or weapon, once you have it in your posession that early in the game, it spoils the progression.

Got it? The comparison was for once you are in possession of that tool. With an auger in hand (whether you got it from random loot, cheated it in by the creative menu, was gifted it by a pal, had enough money to purchase it at the trader) there will now be a whole bunch of finds in the future that will be meh because what you got at the beginning is better than anything else.

Sure it is exciting to find something powerful. I get that. It is exciting to find it once and then the next 20 containers that have lesser versions of what that thing does are all disappointing.

But if you keep finding stuff that is a bit better than what you have then it is still exciting and you get to experience that excitement over and over and over again until you finally reach the top.

But to answer your statement head on: I 100% agree. Being gifted a tool is not random but finding one in a container is random. Glad to see eye to eye with you on that.

 

[Roland]

So I think that getting the balance between the quality of found loot and the players crafting potential right seems important with the new system. Ideally this would then allow crafting to be a meaningful part of the gameplay for more than just the easiest biome and the beginning of the game.

Maybe playtesting a dessert/winter biome only world could give some insights where the break-even point of looting and crafting actually occurrs?

Gonna give it a try, as soon as I get the chance to do so

The balance is going to be based on the standard progression where you start in the forest and eventually progress to living in one of the harder biomes. The game doesn't block you from going straight to desert, snow, or wasteland but doing so is going to alter your play experience and one of those alterations is going to probably be finding better things than you can craft more often.

I know of no plan to try and code a dynamic manager that will readjust magazine drop rate in loot to keep your crafting ahead of the looting curve no matter what you do. The testing you want to do sounds intriguing, though, and I hope you have fun doing it.

 

[Rotor]

I think you are being intentionally dense but regardless, I was never saying that the manner in which you get the auger is the same. I would hope you'd give me enough  credit to not think that I was mistaking what you claimed I was mistaking. It should have been obvious that I was talking about the end result which is the same. However you get an early OP tool or weapon, once you have it in your posession that early in the game, it spoils the progression.

I was being simple not dense and unASSuming.   I was only pointing it out because on the one end you said one thing, and then you made the statement.  It didnt 2+2=4.    Anyways thanks for the explanation. 

Got it? The comparison was for once you are in possession of that tool. With an auger in hand (whether you got it from random loot, cheated it in by the creative menu, was gifted it by a pal, had enough money to purchase it at the trader) there will now be a whole bunch of finds in the future that will be meh because what you got at the beginning is better than anything else.

Sure it is exciting to find something powerful. I get that. It is exciting to find it once and then the next 20 containers that have lesser versions of what that thing does are all disappointing.

But if you keep finding stuff that is a bit better than what you have then it is still exciting and you get to experience that excitement over and over and over again until you finally reach the top.

But to answer your statement head on: I 100% agree. Being gifted a tool is not random but finding one in a container is random. Glad to see eye to eye with you on that.

 

[theFlu]

It's not only about finding something early, but also about finding it very late or not at all. This is a challenge when you reach a dead point that you have to overcome.

Indeed; If a thing is locked behind "25 copies" of a book instead of an "equally random" rare one, the 25 copies version is not really going to cause any variance to mention.

Can't complain yet as I haven't seen anything, but I am a little worried. It sounds an awful lot like a nomad start, from bookshelf to bookshelf, until transportation has been achieved. Or steel. Or some other threshold. And balancing for multiplayer vs solo, as people will specialize while multi, people carrying books to one another.. hmm. Finding a balance there is not one of the tasks I'm jealous of ..

Yes, I'm one of those filthy min-maxers by nature, but so is any game... in my eyes

 

[RipClaw]

Indeed; If a thing is locked behind "25 copies" of a book instead of an "equally random" rare one, the 25 copies version is not really going to cause any variance to mention.

Can't complain yet as I haven't seen anything, but I am a little worried. It sounds an awful lot like a nomad start, from bookshelf to bookshelf, until transportation has been achieved. Or steel. Or some other threshold. And balancing for multiplayer vs solo, as people will specialize while multi, people carrying books to one another.. hmm. Finding a balance there is not one of the tasks I'm jealous of ..

Yes, I'm one of those filthy min-maxers by nature, but so is any game... in my eyes

From what I have read, the magazines are not only found on bookshelves. Basically everywhere you can find a schematic now, you can also find the magazines. That also includes broken workstations and crates like Pass-N-Gas crates or Working Stiff crates. And they seem also be part of the quest rewards. So quest spamming will probably increase significantly in A21.

 

[theFlu]

So quest spamming will probably increase significantly in A21.

Well, no changes then, I suppose ...

 

[meganoth]

From what I have read, the magazines are not only found on bookshelves. Basically everywhere you can find a schematic now, you can also find the magazines. That also includes broken workstations and crates like Pass-N-Gas crates or Working Stiff crates. And they seem also be part of the quest rewards. So quest spamming will probably increase significantly in A21.

For most players in A20 crafting is relatively unimportant. You make your starting weapons and a pipe machine gun and padded armor. Then at least 3/4th of your better weapons or armor or tools already comes from quests and loot. Why should crafting suddenly be the most sought after thing for normal players in 7D2D?

 

[RipClaw]

For most players in A20 crafting is relatively unimportant. You make your starting weapons and a pipe machine gun and padded armor. Then at least 3/4th of your better weapons or armor or tools already comes from quests and loot. Why should crafting suddenly be the most sought after thing for normal players in 7D2D?

Yes, it is a sad truth that many players no longer craft anything but play the game as a kind of lootshooter.

Personally, I have crafted most of my equipment. For me crafting is an important part of the game and I had hoped that the changes in A21 would strengthen crafting.

If the Fun Pimps rebalance the trader and the quests they could, for example, replace the weapons and tools with parts and magazines. Then the players would have to either make or find their equipment. They would no longer get it from the quests.