PC I finally found a way to make the game interesting

[Kyonshi]

Will see what the feedback there is in experimental, I'm sure faatal can improve upon it.  Its not GPS like bloodmoon but certainly can feel like it if your the type that loves to make alot of noise.

It felt pretty good the last time I tested it.

Yeah i know, this is why i put quotes to "blood moon" situation

I would love to experiment with the feral sense meter and this is one feature that was making me excited for A20. I would like to try with maximum feral as well as taking it low but not straight turned off, like i mention earlier. But if its just an on/off switch, i cant lie that i would be a bit disappointed. I do wish that Fataal brings more nuance to it, but otherwise its all good, ill live with it.

 

[Roland]

Sometimes a change doesn't have to be huge to make a big impact on something.  A small change can have a cascading result.  Throw in other changes, and the impact can be felt long after you exit the game  

That and the fact that adding options to the top menu of the game is always a solid update. You could approximate the feral option with xml edits even now but then you have to be comfortable making those edits. In A20 it will be an official option that can be enabled by anyone without modding knowhow not to mention that faatal spent time testing and making other adjustments so that it works better than it would have by us changing the value for radius of zombie vision.

Bach just doesn't care about it so he minimizes it. If faatal announced a new option to remove traders from the game with a simple toggle on the main menu, he would be much more excited and see it as a legit update even though it is basically the same type of thing.

 

[Maharin]

If faatal announced a new option to remove traders from the game with a simple toggle on the main menu, he would be much more excited and see it as a legit update even though it is basically the same type of thing.

So when can we expect this official change by faatal? 

 

[Roland]

faatal is totally addicted to Traders. I doubt he'll dump that monkey on his back.

 

[Kyonshi]

That and the fact that adding options to the top menu of the game is always a solid update. You could approximate the feral option with xml edits even now but then you have to be comfortable making those edits. In A20 it will be an official option that can be enabled by anyone without modding knowhow not to mention that faatal spent time testing and making other adjustments so that it works better than it would have by us changing the value for radius of zombie vision.

Can you quickly point me out which xml file has that zombie vision value? There's still a full month or so until A20 lands, so id like to fiddle around with this. Or maybe just drop a link to another thread if this already has been asked before. Thanks!

 

[Roland]

Can you quickly point me out which xml file has that zombie vision value? There's still a full month or so until A20 lands, so id like to fiddle around with this. Or maybe just drop a link to another thread if this already has been asked before. Thanks!

Not quickly.  If I have time tonight I can look for it but I suspect someone will show you. I'm pretty sure it is a property listed under the main zombie male in the entities xml folder that is then extended to the other zombies. I'm at school already this morning so can't check. Maybe someone else can toss the ball back to us...

 

[TWORDY]

I may look forward to changes proposed:

Possibility to determine the minimum and a maximum number of traders and their visibility on the map.

Specialized traders - players choices might become more randomized, the gameplay is naturally longer, even more difficult - fun or frustration inducing factor of the game that depends solely on personal preferences and the idea of game balance - the items have to be more meaningful than it is now in such scenario.

Option to punish severely the player on death in the server/map settings.

Option to have "1 life" or "dead is dead", possibility to "resurrect - for complete chickens in certain scenarios", - but issue a visible warning to a player that may go mental over his death.

Additional settings may bring some challenge to players who have been playing 7DTD for 5+ years alongside the "progression" and "grind curve".

 

[bachgaman]

I may look forward to changes proposed:

Possibility to determine the minimum and a maximum number of traders and their visibility on the map.

Specialized traders - players choices might become more randomized, the gameplay is naturally longer, even more difficult - fun or frustration inducing factor of the game that depends solely on personal preferences and the idea of game balance - the items have to be more meaningful than it is now in such scenario.

Option to punish severely the player on death in the server/map settings.

Option to have "1 life" or "dead is dead", possibility to "resurrect - for complete chickens in certain scenarios", - but issue a visible warning to a player that may go mental over his death.

Additional settings may bring some challenge to players who have been playing 7DTD for 5+ years alongside the "progression" and "grind curve".

This is all very cool, but most users will not understand this until it appears in the announcement. It is customary to eat what they give. So good luck with the xml files and mods

 

[Roland]

Can you quickly point me out which xml file has that zombie vision value? There's still a full month or so until A20 lands, so id like to fiddle around with this. Or maybe just drop a link to another thread if this already has been asked before. Thanks!

In entityclasses.xml looking in the basic malezombie AI Targets and Tasks there is this line that you might try playing around with:

<property name="AITarget-4" value="SetNearestEntityAsTarget" data="class=EntityPlayer,0,0,EntityNPC,0,0"/> <!-- class, hear distance, see dist (checked left to right, 0 dist uses entity default) -->

So class=EntityPlayer,50,30 would make it so the zombies could hear the player from 50 blocks away and see the player from 30 blocks away I'm assuming.

The list of classes that can be made into targets for the AI is:

<!--Classes for AITarget:
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalRabbit"/> and chicken
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalStag"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBackpack"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBandit"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityEnemyAnimal"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityLootContainer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityMinibike"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityNPC"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityPlayer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyCrate"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyPlane"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySurvivor"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityVulture"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombie"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieCop"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieDog"/>

So you could conceivably make the zombies chase animals and other things by adding them with commas keeping in mind that their hearing and sight is checked vs entities in the list from left to right.

 

[Kyonshi]

In entityclasses.xml looking in the basic malezombie AI Targets and Tasks there is this line that you might try playing around with:

<property name="AITarget-4" value="SetNearestEntityAsTarget" data="class=EntityPlayer,0,0,EntityNPC,0,0"/> <!-- class, hear distance, see dist (checked left to right, 0 dist uses entity default) -->

So class=EntityPlayer,50,30 would make it so the zombies could hear the player from 50 blocks away and see the player from 30 blocks away I'm assuming.

The list of classes that can be made into targets for the AI is:

<!--Classes for AITarget:
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalRabbit"/> and chicken
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalStag"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBackpack"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBandit"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityEnemyAnimal"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityLootContainer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityMinibike"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityNPC"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityPlayer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyCrate"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyPlane"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySurvivor"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityVulture"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombie"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieCop"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieDog"/>

So you could conceivably make the zombies chase animals and other things by adding them with commas keeping in mind that their hearing and sight is checked vs entities in the list from left to right.

Thank you very much for putting this up Roland.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I used King Gen to create 90% wasteland map, with no traders.

I'm on day 3, and Holy bawls...  this is some rough living.  It kinda brings me back the memories of A16.4.

Without the initial trader and the lack of long distance visibility, I have no freakin clue how to orient myself.

This... is.. interestingly brutal to say the least.

And some might remember that I @%$#ed about first night ferals for a few posts, but I got not one but three of them right after another.  Then 3 zombie bears, and a freakin wight shortly after.  Arrows are.. at a premium here for sure. 

 

[TWORDY]

I`m not sure if it`s a good idea but just my thought - what if a trader is only available after surviving the first wave, or when the player reaches a certain reputation or level. In such a "postponed scenario" a player will solely focus on survival aspects for some time. This might be a fun factor for some.

 

[Aldranon]

7D2D is a specific type of survival game and it seems that its not exactly for you.

There are many games that are different enough that might be more appealing to you.

One game is free and was made in 17 days on a bet (basically).  Not an overarching survival game but more of a shooter.  It's surprisingly good for the time invested.

Oh right. the name is: 死寂 Deathly Stillness

The 死寂 is basically resaying the title:  Die Quiet

 

[bachgaman]

7D2D is a specific type of survival game and it seems that its not exactly for you.

There are many games that are different enough that might be more appealing to you.

One game is free and was made in 17 days on a bet (basically).  Not an overarching survival game but more of a shooter.  It's surprisingly good for the time invested.

Oh right. the name is: 死寂 Deathly Stillness

The 死寂 is basically resaying the title:  Die Quiet

Survival in a game where there is no punishment for death, but there is a reward? Survival in a game where you don't get the penalty of hunger and thirst? Survival in a game where a pipe bomb, which is made for the cost of 1 hit of a pickaxe, is able to stop any enemy? Survival in a game where you are given 600 bullets a day from day one? What are you talking about?

Sorry, but even Muck is a more survival game, while 7 days to die tries to please everyone and the result is a mess from which you can only make content by resorting to modding and manual file editing. If you think the vanilla version of the game is survival, then I have bad news for you. This game is great, but it's not about survival. And the developers are clearly moving in the wrong direction. They indulge everything except the survival aspect and everyone who comes into it for the sake of survival will be disappointed (except those who would have to survive even in the Sims)

 

[meganoth]

Survival in a game where there is no punishment for death, but there is a reward? Survival in a game where you don't get the penalty of hunger and thirst? Survival in a game where a pipe bomb, which is made for the cost of 1 hit of a pickaxe, is able to stop any enemy? Survival in a game where you are given 600 bullets a day from day one? What are you talking about?

Sorry, but even Muck is a more survival game, while 7 days to die tries to please everyone and the result is a mess from which you can only make content by resorting to modding and manual file editing. If you think the vanilla version of the game is survival, then I have bad news for you. This game is great, but it's not about survival. And the developers are clearly moving in the wrong direction. They indulge everything except the survival aspect and everyone who comes into it for the sake of survival will be disappointed (except those who would have to survive even in the Sims)

For some self-invented definitions of "Survival" 7D2D is not survival. Very true.

I would say for most people there is survival in this game. There are players who even consider it too harsh (mostly beginners though, but vanilla IS first and foremost for beginners). And then there are those (often) experienced players who consider it survival light.

And then there is you.

 

[bachgaman]

For some self-invented definitions of "Survival" 7D2D is not survival. Very true.

I would say for most people there is survival in this game. There are players who even consider it too harsh (mostly beginners though, but vanilla IS first and foremost for beginners). And then there are those (often) experienced players who consider it survival light.

And then there is you.

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

 

[BFT2020]

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

I must have missed where the game forces you to keep playing if you die.  7D2D does not force you to keep playing the same game if you die, that is the player's choice.

• Some people play like you do, if you die you start over - The game allows you to do exactly that
  
• Some people play where if you die, it resets everything - The game allows them to do exactly that
  
• Others like me make the decision based on how I died - glitch, keep playing; do something stupid, start all over - The game allows me to do exactly that
  

The game also allows you to modify the dying penalty if you want to be punished for dying, but keep playing.  I have seen a few mods that do that.

 

[meganoth]

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

Okay, that is a way to see it, I take back the sarcasm. Just to be sure, you know that dying removes XP, dying often would even prevent you from advancing in levels at all, right? It may be weak but the penalty is there.

Losing respect for the penalty depends on knowing and exploiting the internal mechanism of gamestage. It depends on the knowledge that gamestage does not increase over time if your level doesn't advance and that zombies don't get worse when your gamestage doesn't go higher. My opinion is that this should not be common knowledge, this is an internal balancing trick.

But there is another problem here, independant of this: Whatever you do with the survival part of the game there is no punishment that really changes anything until you have a goal you want to reach and dying moves you away from your goal. Why would someone care if he lost a level if reaching a certain level is not part of his goal?

The answer is two-fold:

1) Once bandits are in, there will be a bona-fide goal to reach: Kill the leader of one or both factions and possibly take their place. And I assume that those leaders won't be gamestaged so far down that you can take them on with a lvl 1 toon. And then even the weak death penalty we have now IS a punishment.

2) In the mean-time this is also a sandbox game and absent of a set goal you are supposed to choose your own goal.

* When asked to implement a "dead is dead" mode in 7D2D the developers (as far as I remember) said to just delete the game when you die. So one possible choice for goal you can make would be to stay alive until you reach a certain level and play "dead is dead". Someone doesn't have enough self-control for that? Sorry, that is his own fault, grow up,

* Other players simply set their goal at mastering an ability or make a well-proteced base that can survive demolishers or play until there is a feeling to have reached anything reachable in the game (i.e. quality 6 items, map explored...). Once you have such a goal, dying is a punishment and dying often can lead to you never reaching the goal.

* For other players dying for gain is simply not an option and every death is simply a failure, just not a complete failure. At the end of the game having died only once is a much bigger success than having died 5 times. This can be a goal as well.

So my answer to you is that the survival part in 7D2D is not completed, but true to it being a sandbox game too it already is a surivival game if you accept your responsibility to set yourself a goal, one possibility actually being "not to die"

 

[Roland]

This game has survival elements just as it has elements from several other genres. The problem is not the game but the expectations that a hardcore survival fan has when playing this game thinking that this game is going to be a dedicated survival sim. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore RPG fan who comes and wonders why anyone would call this game an RPG. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore farming sim fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call the farming in this game legitimate farming. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore classic zombie fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call this game a zombie game when to them there are no actual zombies portrayed.

As Meganoth stated, this game is very much a survival challenge for many players despite it being a hybrid game and not a true dedicated survival sim. There are also settings you can choose to make the death penalty more biting as well as electing to start over once you die.

When I don't play voluntary dead is dead, I play with the option delete all on death and find that a pretty harrowing penalty. It is almost like starting over when you lose all your favorite items.  I often ask people who complain about weak death penalties if they ever have that enabled and very very few ever do...lol. Do you, @bachgaman?

I would like an additional toggle for persistent status effects upon respawn. I absolutely detest that death heals all debuffs. I find that unforgivable in a game that even dabbles with survival as one of its proclaimed genres thrown in the mix. If I had that option I would probably never just start a new game but keep playing to see if I can overcome or if I sink into a vortex of an inescapable death loop. But I know that wouldn't be good for everyone which is why I would love it as just an option.

 

[Matt115]

Survival in a game where there is no punishment for death, but there is a reward? Survival in a game where you don't get the penalty of hunger and thirst? Survival in a game where a pipe bomb, which is made for the cost of 1 hit of a pickaxe, is able to stop any enemy? Survival in a game where you are given 600 bullets a day from day one? What are you talking about?

Sorry, but even Muck is a more survival game, while 7 days to die tries to please everyone and the result is a mess from which you can only make content by resorting to modding and manual file editing. If you think the vanilla version of the game is survival, then I have bad news for you. This game is great, but it's not about survival. And the developers are clearly moving in the wrong direction. They indulge everything except the survival aspect and everyone who comes into it for the sake of survival will be disappointed (except those who would have to survive even in the Sims)

Reward can be anything- in vanaheim you can die because lack of food. But you need food to have hp- or enemy will kill you easy. So in theory you can't starve to death but food is necessary in this game.  

Well  some things were putted in wrong direction - that's true- but everyone will complain always. I want to bring back corpse decay system but i undestand people was thinking it was not fun.  In some alpha you could have meat from diffrent animals and it was pain in ass- you have 4 meat not 5? sorry you have to starve. so they make this simpler to be more "fair".  

I think this game never was supposed to be typical survival like green hell but  something bettwen minecraft and the forest - you can die easly on the beggining because lack of food but after some time a diffrent thing are are your target - story, better weapons etc

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

And in l4d2 someone can "resurrect you". L4D2 is like "superhot" you can die fast but bettwen safehouse you will spend maybe 10-15 minutes. in 7dtd you will spend a lon long time on this same map so- if you lose 10 minutes no problem but if you lose 40 hours it will sucks.

Okay, that is a way to see it, I take back the sarcasm. Just to be sure, you know that dying removes XP, dying often would even prevent you from advancing in levels at all, right? It may be weak but the penalty is there.

Losing respect for the penalty depends on knowing and exploiting the internal mechanism of gamestage. It depends on the knowledge that gamestage does not increase over time if your level doesn't advance and that zombies don't get worse when your gamestage doesn't go higher. My opinion is that this should not be common knowledge, this is an internal balancing trick.

But there is another problem here, independant of this: Whatever you do with the survival part of the game there is no punishment that really changes anything until you have a goal you want to reach and dying moves you away from your goal. Why would someone care if he lost a level if reaching a certain level is not part of his goal?

The answer is two-fold:

1) Once bandits are in, there will be a bona-fide goal to reach: Kill the leader of one or both factions and possibly take their place. And I assume that those leaders won't be gamestaged so far down that you can take them on with a lvl 1 toon. And then even the weak death penalty we have now IS a punishment.

2) In the mean-time this is also a sandbox game and absent of a set goal you are supposed to choose your own goal.

* When asked to implement a "dead is dead" mode in 7D2D the developers (as far as I remember) said to just delete the game when you die. So one possible choice for goal you can make would be to stay alive until you reach a certain level and play "dead is dead". Someone doesn't have enough self-control for that? Sorry, that is his own fault, grow up,

* Other players simply set their goal at mastering an ability or make a well-proteced base that can survive demolishers or play until there is a feeling to have reached anything reachable in the game (i.e. quality 6 items, map explored...). Once you have such a goal, dying is a punishment and dying often can lead to you never reaching the goal.

* For other players dying for gain is simply not an option and every death is simply a failure, just not a complete failure. At the end of the game having died only once is a much bigger success than having died 5 times. This can be a goal as well.

So my answer to you is that the survival part in 7D2D is not completed, but true to it being a sandbox game too it already is a surivival game if you accept your responsibility to set yourself a goal, one possibility actually being "not to die"

Well survival part is complet honestly- point of survial is survive how long as you can. or until you get bored.

In my opinion survival will be early stage- get food guns base etc. 

And when you boxes  will be full of ammo food, walls stong and sentries at door you are going to kick bandits asses as "late game"

This game has survival elements just as it has elements from several other genres. The problem is not the game but the expectations that a hardcore survival fan has when playing this game thinking that this game is going to be a dedicated survival sim. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore RPG fan who comes and wonders why anyone would call this game an RPG. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore farming sim fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call the farming in this game legitimate farming. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore classic zombie fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call this game a zombie game when to them there are no actual zombies portrayed.

As Meganoth stated, this game is very much a survival challenge for many players despite it being a hybrid game and not a true dedicated survival sim. There are also settings you can choose to make the death penalty more biting as well as electing to start over once you die.

When I don't play voluntary dead is dead, I play with the option delete all on death and find that a pretty harrowing penalty. It is almost like starting over when you lose all your favorite items.  I often ask people who complain about weak death penalties if they ever have that enabled and very very few ever do...lol. Do you, @bachgaman?

I would like an additional toggle for persistent status effects upon respawn. I absolutely detest that death heals all debuffs. I find that unforgivable in a game that even dabbles with survival as one of its proclaimed genres thrown in the mix. If I had that option I would probably never just start a new game but keep playing to see if I can overcome or if I sink into a vortex of an inescapable death loop.

I think some people when they were kids they asked parents if they can get spank on bare skin because with it will no hurt enough XD.

But seriously : i game can be realistic and can he hardcore.

Realistic - proper uniforms of soldier, correct magasines numbers, good graphic , realistic gore system.

Hardcore - everything is hard as posibble.

And i'm furiouse when people  use realistic as diffrent name of hardcore XD