I finally did a full stealth run and I gotta say...I think they're right

[Double G]

And when I say "they're" I mean those that say "stealth sucks".

I maxed out all the necessary perks and had all the necessary legendary armor, had all the necessary weapons with all the necessary attachments and it wasn't a good overall experience.

As it has been said many times, the trigger spawns in POIs completely kills it. Sure I can trigger them and then back off, crouch and wait for them to lose me, but that doesn't always work because smarter zombies (Utility Worker) and higher tier zombies (radiated+) can still detect you from greater distances even if the detection meter shows green and single digit numbers.

Now, I've always used some stealthiness even when playing normal and that is good, but when going out of my way to spec fully into stealth, it becomes a waste and ultimately disappointing.

I don't mind trigger spawns, but if I'm fully spec'd and kitted into stealth I shouldn't be instantly detected once they spawn. There has to be legit viability to being fully stealth'd out, otherwise there's no point in having a stealth class.

I know assassin armor was too OP in 1.0, but there has to be some middle ground. There has to be substantial viability to running a stealth class.

 

[Ostentatio]

Conjecturally, how do you think stealth gameplay would shake out with a spawn-all-sleepers mod (I have this one in my current 2.4 list)? Or if you felt like it, testing it with that or a similar mod. I don't know enough about how the systems work to make a knowing guess, but my assumption is that they should play well together. That wouldn't really affect the detection ranges on specials or 'smarter' zombies, but it is a factor and I'm mainly curious if an alteration to the sleeper/triggers is all it'd take to make stealth a strong option.
But there's also the very precarious Skyrim-stealth-archer tipping point where it goes from "viable" to "dumb to do anything else", I suppose...

 

[zztong]

And when I say "they're" I mean those that say "stealth sucks".

I've been wondering if so options / configuration / sliders related to different aspects of stealth performance might help players end up with the stealth they want. By that, I mean I suspect there are a few different groups of players with different expectations of stealth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't hear you saying the skills and rogue / assassin armors are a problem, but the triggers in POIs are the source of your frustration. Your position is they "completely kill stealth's viability." I'm more in an "overuse of triggers is infringing on stealth's viability" kind of person.

If we had a slider related to zombie sensitivity, I probably wouldn't change it.
If we had a slider related to the max detection distance, I might change it depending on what the default was.
If we had a slider related to the time it takes for a zombie to lose track of a player that is out of sight, I might change it.

Harder, is trying to think of an option that changes the way triggers work, partly because there are a couple of different mechanisms here, not just a single "triggers" mechanism. One discussion on this board suggested a new command for minscripts that could test if an option was set to prevent multiple rounds of spawns.

Conjecturally, how do you think stealth gameplay would shake out with a spawn-all-sleepers mod

I'm making certain assumptions about how that mod might work, and I could be wrong, but...

I'm unlikely to try it, but if I did it would be on a single player game. I say that because there are performance reasons why POIs don't spawn all of their zombies all at once. In a multiplayer environment with players in different parts of the world, I would worry there wouldn't be enough zombies available to be placed given there is a max number of zombies that can in existence at one time.

You'll also might see some unintended consequences when you're traveling through the world. By that, I mean if you drive close enough to a POI while traveling you can get that POI to place some zombies in the volume you just passed, so you might eat the delay of having something like 4 zombies getting placed that you'll never encounter. If you use that mod, you would get the entire POIs zombies placed, potentially eating the delay for 40 zombies being placed.

In terms of stealth, it might make stealth a little harder as now you might get zombies to add from farther away if events turn noisy.

 

[Vaeliorin]

The waves are what absolutely kills it for me. I was doing a stealth playthrough, doing really well, until I got to the loot room of my first tier 5. It was absolutely stupid. Just wave after wave of green/blue/orange zombies that didn't even show up until I'd killed almost everything that was visible. Yes, I could have done the whole runaway and stealth thing, I guess, but it would have taken an asinine amount of time, and I don't know how that would even have worked with the constant spawns.

It just wasn't fun.

 

[Worrun]

I agree and have agreed for a good few years -- however, am unable to come up with a proper viable alternative that doesn't involve houses just having roaming zombies inside them like in Alpha 16, that are all existing and awake, all the time.

While cool in a random house, or small POI's I can see the performance argument in T5's and other larger POI's

 

[Roland]

The waves are what absolutely kills it for me. I was doing a stealth playthrough, doing really well, until I got to the loot room of my first tier 5. It was absolutely stupid. Just wave after wave of green/blue/orange zombies that didn't even show up until I'd killed almost everything that was visible. Yes, I could have done the whole runaway and stealth thing, I guess, but it would have taken an asinine amount of time, and I don't know how that would even have worked with the constant spawns.

It just wasn't fun.

I agree that they need to improve stealth but this example is just not a good one. What are your expectations for how stealth would work in that loot room with waves of zombies coming in? There are just going to be some situations where being able to remain in stealth and kill everything without being detected is stupidly OP.

This is not a stealth game and I think it is fine to have a variety of encounter situations even if you are fully perked into stealth. Yes, the triggers are overused but expecting to remain completely undetected for 100% of encounters would be an overuse of the stealth ability on the other side of the coin.

In your situation I would say that being able to enter the room stealthed and kill the initial zombies would be fair but then if waves of zombies are coming in after that first encounter, having to switch things up to guns blazing/parkour is not an insult to the points you spent in stealth or make your build pointless. In point of fact, parkour is an element of the same perk tree as stealth.

]What would be dumb is if the waves of zombie enter the room and walk past you without being able to detect you as you kill them all one by one. Now I don't know if that is your expectation but I would be interested to know what your expectation for stealth is in those high tier loot rooms that trigger spawn waves of enemies.

 

[Double G]

I agree that they need to improve stealth but this example is just not a good one. What are your expectations for how stealth would work in that loot room with waves of zombies coming in? There are just going to be some situations where being able to remain in stealth and kill everything without being detected is stupidly OP.

This is not a stealth game and I think it is fine to have a variety of encounter situations even if you are fully perked into stealth. Yes, the triggers are overused but expecting to remain completely undetected for 100% of encounters would be an overuse of the stealth ability on the other side of the coin.

In your situation I would say that being able to enter the room stealthed and kill the initial zombies would be fair but then if waves of zombies are coming in after that first encounter, having to switch things up to guns blazing/parkour is not an insult to the points you spent in stealth or make your build pointless. In point of fact, parkour is an element of the same perk tree as stealth.

]What would be dumb is if the waves of zombie enter the room and walk past you without being able to detect you as you kill them all one by one. Now I don't know if that is your expectation but I would be interested to know what your expectation for stealth is in those high tier loot rooms that trigger spawn waves of enemies.

High risk, high reward.

What if you were to trigger-spawn a mass amount of zombies that can't detect you? You start picking them off one by one but then you miss one and your arrow hits the wall, making more noise. Now they're alert. It's the type of challenge that inspires certain players to want to continue to improve...to play more and more. There's no incentive to do a stealth build if you know you're gonna feel cheated more than half the time.

Now we have wandering sleepers which is great for stealth. Increased challenge, increased incentive to improve one's aim. The player feels like THEY themselves are responsible for their success, as opposed to just finding out what perks to spec into to become OP or which block configuration to use to ensure zombies won't be a threat during horde night, for example.

Success in a game that is based primarily on having knowledge (meaning that you don't have to earn it, because there's a flood of YouTube videos giving it out for free) is an empty experience.

And you say this isn't a stealth game...then why have a stealth class? I normally don't play stealth, but I do incorporate it and it's fun. If the stealth class isn't substantial...then get rid of it. Why lead players to think they can have something that doesn't exist?

And as an aside - the new "clown car" spawning (as I've heard people call it) that zombies do out of holes in the wall is odd. The repeated spawning out of the same block just doesn't feel right to me. And it results in weird spawning towards the end of some POIs. Whatever remaining zombies there are at the end begin to plop out of the same hole. All you gotta do is wait and pick them off one by one.

I've been wondering if so options / configuration / sliders related to different aspects of stealth performance might help players end up with the stealth they want. By that, I mean I suspect there are a few different groups of players with different expectations of stealth.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't hear you saying the skills and rogue / assassin armors are a problem, but the triggers in POIs are the source of your frustration. Your position is they "completely kill stealth's viability." I'm more in an "overuse of triggers is infringing on stealth's viability" kind of person.

If we had a slider related to zombie sensitivity, I probably wouldn't change it.
If we had a slider related to the max detection distance, I might change it depending on what the default was.
If we had a slider related to the time it takes for a zombie to lose track of a player that is out of sight, I might change it.

You wouldn't need sliders. Your perks would determine how sleepers and triggered zombies behave.

 

[Ostentatio]

I'm making certain assumptions about how that mod might work, and I could be wrong, but...

I'm unlikely to try it, but if I did it would be on a single player game. I say that because there are performance reasons why POIs don't spawn all of their zombies all at once. In a multiplayer environment with players in different parts of the world, I would worry there wouldn't be enough zombies available to be placed given there is a max number of zombies that can in existence at one time.

You'll also might see some unintended consequences when you're traveling through the world. By that, I mean if you drive close enough to a POI while traveling you can get that POI to place some zombies in the volume you just passed, so you might eat the delay of having something like 4 zombies getting placed that you'll never encounter. If you use that mod, you would get the entire POIs zombies placed, potentially eating the delay for 40 zombies being placed.

My experience with it is single-player, as the only multiplayer I've done in years is occasional 2-player; I get some framedrop being in the denser cities, but that could also be contributable to cities-in-games-dunking-frames as it is the fact that my mods increase zombie spawns to obstinate quantities. The spawn-sleepers mod did give me some gnarly frame tanking in a dense city, but that one I linked (the only one I'm familiar with) has configurable settings on only spawning them when you're within the POI and only within a certain range of where you are. I haven't gone back to a dense city since changing those settings, but the drop in frames was pretty rough - 20s from my normal 70+ - but I assume it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad with a setup not spawning 10x+ zombies environmentally in combination to the set POI spawns. The mod's description calls out 1.0 so it may not even be fully functional with 2.X, but it served its purpose for what I needed it to do in the run I'm doing, so it's on the potential removal list for when I'm done with the self-imposed challenge run I'm doing. Protip: feral sense is an acquired taste, and it's especially sour with more spawns.

<edit-removed for irrelevancy>

And you say this isn't a stealth game...then why have a stealth class? I normally don't play stealth, but I do incorporate it and it's fun. If the stealth class isn't substantial...then get rid of it. Why lead players to think they can have something that doesn't exist?

Stealth is totally useless against blood moons, isn't it? That's a pretty big situation for a whole build to be invalidated during, but if you give stealth even one smidgen of effectiveness there, you're opening the way for potential exploits that would invalidate probably the biggest "event" in the whole game kind of like AFK bases. Hyperspecialization shouldn't guarantee survival, versatility and adaptability are approaches that (I think) should boost odds by the most.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I agree that they need to improve stealth but this example is just not a good one. What are your expectations for how stealth would work in that loot room with waves of zombies coming in? There are just going to be some situations where being able to remain in stealth and kill everything without being detected is stupidly OP.

This is not a stealth game and I think it is fine to have a variety of encounter situations even if you are fully perked into stealth. Yes, the triggers are overused but expecting to remain completely undetected for 100% of encounters would be an overuse of the stealth ability on the other side of the coin.

In your situation I would say that being able to enter the room stealthed and kill the initial zombies would be fair but then if waves of zombies are coming in after that first encounter, having to switch things up to guns blazing/parkour is not an insult to the points you spent in stealth or make your build pointless. In point of fact, parkour is an element of the same perk tree as stealth.

]What would be dumb is if the waves of zombie enter the room and walk past you without being able to detect you as you kill them all one by one. Now I don't know if that is your expectation but I would be interested to know what your expectation for stealth is in those high tier loot rooms that trigger spawn waves of enemies.

I would expect them to work like they used to where they didn't spawn waves of enemies out of nowhere, and all the zombies already existed as soon as you walked into the room. That particular loot room, since it's been added, I've been able to successfully stealth all the enemies once (in several years at this point.)

I liked stealth when it was a risk/reward thing, where if you could stealth kill everything (which already takes much longer than going guns blazing) you were rewarded, but it was hard, and you were at a disadvantage when you almost inevitably woke some of the zombies up.

It just feels completely pointless to even try to go stealth at this point, with the overabundance of ammo that means there's no real penalties for going guns blazing, and the fact that points spent on stealth/bows are basically useless on horde night.

Basically, I hate the new way that final rooms in T5 POIs work now. Even when I go in guns blazing, I find it just tedious and annoying. Wave after wave spawning, more zombies in one room than the entire rest of the POI it often feels like. I don't like FPS games, and until these changes, no part of 7 Days ever felt like an FPS to me. Now, it does, and I don't enjoy it, at all.

 

[Jost Amman]

Stealth gameplay expectations were ruined by the TES series.

 

[zztong]

Stealth is totally useless against blood moons, isn't it? That's a pretty big situation for a whole build to be invalidated during, but if you give stealth even one smidgen of effectiveness there, you're opening the way for potential exploits that would invalidate probably the biggest "event" in the whole game

Perhaps. I don't think of my "build" as being entirely Stealth though I would say I am Stealth-centric. By that, I mean I use Stealth as much as I can, but know I'm going to have to use other techniques at other times.

I can think of ways to make Stealth kind of effective during Blood Moons. I mean, couldn't back shots give sneak damage on horde night? Perhaps a Perk where a certain percentage of shots made while crouched with a bow/crossbow are treated as sneak attacks?

 

[theFlu]

Perhaps a Perk where a certain percentage of shots made while crouched with a bow/crossbow are treated as sneak attacks?

Something along those lines might be nice, but for that specific one; even at a 100% you'd probably be better off with a non-specced lever action, due to effective fire rate. Much more so with the Pistol-line weapons of course.

 

[Rotor]

....; even at a 100% you'd probably be better off with a non-specced lever action, due to effective fire rate....

I agree, need one for these ...... In game .

 

[Double G]

Stealth is totally useless against blood moons, isn't it? That's a pretty big situation for a whole build to be invalidated during, but if you give stealth even one smidgen of effectiveness there, you're opening the way for potential exploits that would invalidate probably the biggest "event" in the whole game kind of like AFK bases. Hyperspecialization shouldn't guarantee survival, versatility and adaptability are approaches that (I think) should boost odds by the most.

First of all, even with a complete stealth build on Specialist difficulty, blood moons (with a 400+ gamestage in the Wasteland) are a breeze...and that's while going out of one's way to NOT make a meta base.

There is nothing about the current stealth build that is a hindrance to how effective a player can be during blood moons. And I'm not saying to make the current stealth build any stronger. I'm saying zombie behavior in POIs needs to change relative to the stealth build.

Also, zombies have unique behavior during blood moons, meaning no matter how hidden you are and no matter how far away you are from them they will be coming for you.

And if a stealth build makes it too hard for some players to handle blood moons, or anything else for that matter, then they shouldn't run a stealth build. That's the beauty of having viable options. There are players out there that enjoy being challenged. Why not have an option for that, especially if it would have no bearing or benefit for others that don't want to do it?

 

[Roland]

High risk, high reward.

What if you were to trigger-spawn a mass amount of zombies that can't detect you? You start picking them off one by one but then you miss one and your arrow hits the wall, making more noise. Now they're alert. It's the type of challenge that inspires certain players to want to continue to improve...to play more and more. There's no incentive to do a stealth build if you know you're gonna feel cheated more than half the time.

Now we have wandering sleepers which is great for stealth. Increased challenge, increased incentive to improve one's aim. The player feels like THEY themselves are responsible for their success, as opposed to just finding out what perks to spec into to become OP or which block configuration to use to ensure zombies won't be a threat during horde night, for example.

Success in a game that is based primarily on having knowledge (meaning that you don't have to earn it, because there's a flood of YouTube videos giving it out for free) is an empty experience.

I don’t disagree with any of this. As I said, stealth can be improved and I like your idea about missing a shot makes zombies more aware. At the same time I think that a variety of encounters is better and that ambush triggers have their place in the game even for stealth perked players. It’s just overused at the moment.

And you say this isn't a stealth game...then why have a stealth class? I normally don't play stealth, but I do incorporate it and it's fun. If the stealth class isn't substantial...then get rid of it. Why lead players to think they can have something that doesn't exist?

Yes, and I stand by that. Also, the class is Agility, which includes stealth and parkour. The fact that you have put so many hours into the game without specializing in stealth is evidence that this is not a dedicated stealth game.

This game is a hybrid of many genres and while stealth is in the game it isn’t going to be as deep as a game that has stealth as its primary genre. It just isn’t. I never said that stealth wasn’t substantial. I think that it is seeing as it is something you can specialize in as one of many experiences with the game. And I don’t believe that it should just be thrown out rather than keeping it in its current form. I’m all for improvements but saying it should be removed if it ends up always being at the current level is a bit ridiculous.

I’d say that the game doesn’t lead anyone to believe something it doesn’t deliver. The idea that you should be able to stealth most if not 100% of all situations is not ever broadcast by the game. That’s just personal expectations of some individuals. There is also nothing wrong with retreating and reaquiring stealth before engaging. That mechanic is part of every dedicated stealth game I have ever played but for some reason people in this community act like it doesn’t count.

And as an aside - the new "clown car" spawning (as I've heard people call it) that zombies do out of holes in the wall is odd. The repeated spawning out of the same block just doesn't feel right to me. And it results in weird spawning towards the end of some POIs. Whatever remaining zombies there are at the end begin to plop out of the same hole. All you gotta do is wait and pick them off one by one.

I just imagine they are crawling in from a hidden location and if you do mop things up fast enough to be able to kill them as they emerge then that is yet another different scenario that can be experienced.

 

[theFlu]

What would be dumb is if the waves of zombie enter the room and walk past you without being able to detect you as you kill them all one by one. Now I don't know if that is your expectation but I would be interested to know what your expectation for stealth is in those high tier loot rooms that trigger spawn waves of enemies.

This is the issue in the game; dealing with "Big Battles" with 100% stealth would be broken. Dealing with them with 0% stealth is the current state of things, and it also feels completely broken.

It can't be fixed with the current design, without adding new features; but suggesting, or even coming up with new features is just fantasizing, destined to be buried in Pimp Dreams at best.

The current "trade off" of stealth, is roughly:
You give away:
10 skill points
A full armor set of bonuses
Choice of trees and weapons other than Agi
Some inventory for the sub-par ranged of Archery
(and maybe a candy slot, but ain't nobody spending money on that one .. )

You get:
A few more "stealthable" regular rooms in POIs, saving some ammo; 5%? 10?
Nada for POI Big Battles
Nada for the weekly horde

Anything that would follow a "well, acthually" from there, doesn't aczhually work in the game.

If anyone has great ideas, they're fun to read.. but so is The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

 

[Rooster Gold]

Stealth no longer FUN in its current form.

Several YouTubers I follow that used to run stealth builds in 1.0 haven't even touched it, or in some cases not uploaded a single video since the changes.

Sacrificing fun at alter of challenge has created nothing but apathy.

 

[Roland]

It can't be fixed with the current design, without adding new features; but suggesting, or even coming up with new features is just fantasizing, destined to be buried in Pimp Dreams at best.

Well if there’s a 3.0 backlash review bomb just make sure to mention stealth a lot and maybe it will get swept up into the 3.5 community appeasement patch….

 

[theFlu]

Well if there’s a 3.0 backlash review bomb just make sure to mention stealth a lot and maybe it will get swept up into the 3.5 community appeasement patch….

Ehh, that "maybe" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Too minor a feature to worry about, and can't be fixed with sliders. I know you're not exactly being serious, but the only funny follow-ups I can come up with are ... not healthy

 

[Lax]

Some stealth situations in POIs are more annoying than anything else. That said, I still have fun with it. Pretty much every playthrough I grab a silenced pistol, Compound Bow, an SMG, an Auto shotty and eventually a sniper rifle.

For any of those hanky hits the fan moments I fall back on my SMG and Auto Shotty and all is right with the world.