PC I feel Pigeon holed. Direction for the game?

[Boidster]

Im a builder at heart and I like the idea that im able to try and build a base to withstand the horde, but with each recent patch It seem the direction the game is going is to not have a horde base at all. Heres what I mean:
- Previously I was a underground bunker person, but then Digging zombies where introduced

- I changed it to a overground fort, but they they updated AI pathing

- I adapted to "Pathing Base" build, but now they have Demolition zombies

- Adapt to not have a horde base and run at night, Zombie speed are increased.

IMO your third bullet is begging the question a bit. "But now they have Demolition zombies" does not completely invalidate base-building, does it? I play 2-player co-op and our strategy/preferred play style has always been to build a strong base (or take over a POI), lay a bunch of traps around it, and perch on top focusing fire on the most dangerous incoming zombies. Used to be cops. Now demos are on the list. Maybe we get 'em, maybe we miss, but the base is designed to have "crumple zones" that can withstand damage without causing overall integrity to collapse.

And but so, if you want to be able to build a base that can withstand horde night, but only after a fight - including non-trivial damage to the base - then that should be doable with relatively default settings.

To the extent you want the base to survive relatively unscathed and for the survivor(s) to not be in much danger (as when you used to hole up under ground), then you will need to adjust AI block damage settings and horde night bonuses, probably.

It's impossible to craft a game and default settings that will gracefully cover all possible play styles. Hence "default". Start tweaking settings and see if you can find a better balance for you. I bet you can get the balance you want without too much trouble. Good luck.

 

[Jihh]

Why is it still said that it is a tower defense game ?

The game is a survival horde crafting game. It has parts from other genres, but it clearly isn't just a tower defense game. Where do you get that from?

In other words, you're relying on the base to last long enough not to use up all your retreat options and not to run out of ammo. I can already tell you that you will lose this game in the long run.

As I already wrote, the main concept of my base is to outlast the zombies. Shooting, spikes and traps are optional. Despite using that concept in 10+ games already, never ever failed a single module. I usually start with 4 models and go up to ten over the weeks. In multiplayer games I build even more, in the last game of A17 I've build 24 modules which lead to the whole server joining my base. Many were over level 200, everyone over level 100, so we were in the end game. I had enough space and materials lying around to double or triple the modules, but since it already was safe I rather went doing quests. Not one module failed that night.

I'm not saying my style of building bases is very creative, it isn't. It also probably isn't the most fun build you can make. But I'm pretty confident that it will outlast anything TFP will throw at us.

You should check out the defences of real castles. In the movies castles are often only towers and a few strong walls from which the defenders shot down on the attackers, but in reality the defense was much more sophisticated.

I'm pretty sure there are things you can learn from real castles. But not everything they did was optimal and not everything will work the same on zombie hordes. In example moats don't do anything useful in this game. Moats were mainly made to prevent siege weapon and siege towers to safely reach the wall. There is no zombie with those things. Moats just gives zombies the opportunity to dig under your wall and thus breach in faster. Of course you could build your concrete wall down to the ground, but at that point you don't even need the moat anymore, since zombies will hit the same wall, just x blocks lower.

For zombie hordes it doesn't matter if you dig a moat or just build a higher wall.

But the most important difference is that many of us have a separate base for horde nights. So while a castle had to keep safe everyone inside and thus have to defend a big area, we just need to defend ourselves, moving targets.

 

[RipClaw]

IMO your third bullet is begging the question a bit. "But now they have Demolition zombies" does not completely invalidate base-building, does it? I play 2-player co-op and our strategy/preferred play style has always been to build a strong base (or take over a POI), lay a bunch of traps around it, and perch on top focusing fire on the most dangerous incoming zombies. Used to be cops. Now demos are on the list. Maybe we get 'em, maybe we miss, but the base is designed to have "crumple zones" that can withstand damage without causing overall integrity to collapse.

I think you underestimate the demolisher.

It has 1000 HP and an armor that absorbs 40% of all damage. When he explodes then he does 5000 damage in a radius of 5 blocks and with his hands he does 500 block damage with every hit. Anything that is not at least reinforced concrete will be destroyed by the explosion and reinforced concrete is gone after two explosions.

I made a test with a gamestage 250 horde and got 8-10 of the demolishers that night.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I think you underestimate the demolisher.
It has 1000 HP and an armor that absorbs 40% of all damage. When he explodes then he does 5000 damage in a radius of 5 blocks and with his hands he does 500 block damage with every hit. Anything that is not at least reinforced concrete will be destroyed by the explosion and reinforced concrete is gone after two explosions.

I made a test with a gamestage 250 horde and got 8-10 of the demolishers that night.

That is insane... and not in a good way

I'm sorry to be so negative. And again, maybe it plays very well... just from a gamedesign perspective, demolishers create a power imbalance.

There are certain parameters:

-range

-hp/tankyness/regen

-blockdamage

-playerdamage

-speed

-abilities (like screamers or jumpers)

What you describe is a mix of tank, block/playerdmg and abilities (explosion)

Either make him way less tanky, way slower or deal normal damage with his fists.

But what you describe is called in gaming culture to be a "♥♥♥♥ move"

Every obstacle needs a counter. And he only has "hit his button early enough, then you only have to fix holes in the dirt". That is... suboptimal.

Again, might be super fun ingame, just not a good design.

 

[RipClaw]

The game is a survival horde crafting game. It has parts from other genres, but it clearly isn't just a tower defense game. Where do you get that from?

Madmole always calls it that.

As I already wrote, the main concept of my base is to outlast the zombies. Shooting, spikes and traps are optional. Despite using that concept in 10+ games already, never ever failed a single module. I usually start with 4 models and go up to ten over the weeks. In multiplayer games I build even more, in the last game of A17 I've build 24 modules which lead to the whole server joining my base. Many were over level 200, everyone over level 100, so we were in the end game. I had enough space and materials lying around to double or triple the modules, but since it already was safe I rather went doing quests. Not one module failed that night.
I'm not saying my style of building bases is very creative, it isn't. It also probably isn't the most fun build you can make. But I'm pretty confident that it will outlast anything TFP will throw at us.

Once you've experienced the demolisher, you may reconsider your opinion.

I'm pretty sure there are things you can learn from real castles. But not everything they did was optimal and not everything will work the same on zombie hordes. In example moats don't do anything useful in this game. Moats were mainly made to prevent siege weapon and siege towers to safely reach the wall. There is no zombie with those things. Moats just gives zombies the opportunity to dig under your wall and thus breach in faster. Of course you could build your concrete wall down to the ground, but at that point you don't even need the moat anymore, since zombies will hit the same wall, just x blocks lower.For zombie hordes it doesn't matter if you dig a moat or just build a higher wall.

On the contrary. With moats you could guide the zombies in A17 in such a way that they did not attack certain parts of the base. The difference in height between my position and the bottom of the trench told the AI that the cost of the path is too high and so they ran exactly into the entrance that was intended for them. I haven't fully tested this for A18 yet, but I've partially analyzed the AI.

For A18 using moat is also great to use spikes as effectively as possible. If you place the spikes in a trench that is one block deep so that the spikes are flush with the bottom, the zombies will always run over the spikes instead of trying to take the clear path. Sounds illogical but that's how the AI works.

But the most important difference is that many of us have a separate base for horde nights. So while a castle had to keep safe everyone inside and thus have to defend a big area, we just need to defend ourselves, moving targets.

I also have usually two bases but that doesn't mean I want to watch it turn my horde base into a pile of rubble and I have to rebuild everything.

 

[Xafius]

I have a setup with some barbed wire fencing and it slows the demolishers down enough to kill em before they explode. So so far no probs with them at my horde base. I set up the staging area in such a way that if it does get blown up I have fall backs.

 

[RolandDT]

As I already wrote, the main concept of my base is to outlast the zombies. Shooting, spikes and traps are optional. Despite using that concept in 10+ games already, never ever failed a single module. I usually start with 4 models and go up to ten over the weeks. In multiplayer games I build even more, in the last game of A17 I've build 24 modules which lead to the whole server joining my base. Many were over level 200, everyone over level 100, so we were in the end game. I had enough space and materials lying around to double or triple the modules, but since it already was safe I rather went doing quests. Not one module failed that night.
I'm not saying my style of building bases is very creative, it isn't. It also probably isn't the most fun build you can make. But I'm pretty confident that it will outlast anything TFP will throw at us.

Deeply curious as to how you construct your bases. Any chance on getting some instructions? Pictures, video, text description, whatever? Even in a PM.

 

[RipClaw]

I have a setup with some barbed wire fencing and it slows the demolishers down enough to kill em before they explode. So so far no probs with them at my horde base. I set up the staging area in such a way that if it does get blown up I have fall backs.

Isn't the barbed wire destroyed much too quickly by the other zombies? In older Alphas the barbed wire never lasted long.

 

[Jihh]

Madmole always calls it that.

Maybe he does. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't a tower defense game. You could argue that he wants it to be one, if he stated that, but please look at the game and tell me it's more tower defense than survival & crafting.

Once you've experienced the demolisher, you may reconsider your opinion.

At my current base it would need at least 16 demolishers that go off at the most efficient position, to get my in trouble. I haven't seen a single one yet. At the time I will experience 16 demolishers, my base probably has grown a lot in size.

The difference in height between my position and the bottom of the trench

So what's the difference between a 2 block deep moat with concrete on it's inner side and a 3 block high wall on top of it versus a 5 block high wall? In both cases the height difference is the same and the materials needed are the same.

If it does make a difference in zombie behaviour it isn't because the moat itself is tactical advantageous, but that the ai treats it differently. At that point we aren't taking advice from castles, but are cheating the ai. So assuming you are right, it still doesn't change my point that not everything we did in real castles works the same on zombies.

Also cheating the ai is probably the safest way to get your strategy patched out in the long run. At least as long as TFP is actively working on improving the ai.

If you place the spikes in a trench that is one block deep so that the spikes are flush with the bottom, the zombies will always run over the spikes instead of trying to take the clear path. Sounds illogical but that's how the AI works.

I guess that's something that could change any minute. I don't see it as a long time strategy in any way.

I also have usually two bases but that doesn't mean I want to watch it turn my horde base into a pile of rubble and I have to rebuild everything.

And as I said up until now not a single module failed in any game. That will probably change by the time I get demolishers going, but I rather have to rebuild a parts of my base than be at risk of dying.

 

[Kattla]

I'm a little confused about the game direction now and what to do and I feel like im getting pigeon holed into a paticular play style.
Im a builder at heart and I like the idea that im able to try and build a base to withstand the horde, but with each recent patch It seem the direction the game is going is to not have a horde base at all. Heres what I mean:

- Previously I was a underground bunker person, but then Digging zombies where introduced

- I changed it to a overground fort, but they they updated AI pathing

- I adapted to "Pathing Base" build, but now they have Demolition zombies

- Adapt to not have a horde base and run at night, Zombie speed are increased.

Currently in B149, I have either few options left from what I can see, Ride around on bike all night (which is not run and boring) find a cheesy ass base build that may result in abuse of a glitchy mechanics (like floating bases), run around with mass amounts of grenades (not that fun for me)

So to my question, how does the the game/ TFP want me to play? Becuase im running out of options now. Does any one feel like their options are being limited?

In my experience on this forum, ANY building style that is particulary effective against zombie hordes just by design alone are going to be called cheese by a handful of people. Even using zombie pathing against them, even when the pathing itself is/was seen as a feature by the development team when it was released. And, pathing still works btw, not perfect but good enough.

How TFP want you/us to play? Up to Alpha 16, they just wanted us to have fun playing their game. In A17, tower defense was the keyword, now, with A18e, it seems guns and ducttape are the new meta. In A19, i've no idea what they come up with. Maybe they call it story or quest driven by then.

Hmm, wonder how the game would end up if every gunshot increased max zombie count outside by 1, up to a cap of 64 (outside of horde nights).

 

[grieferbastard]

This is critical and in a way always has been - just that before you could cheese zombie AI by digging underground or abusing bad pathing mechanics to get around it.

Don't fight 7 day horde from your home.

7 day horde is a weekly Apocalypse. However it's after YOU. Not your BASE. YOU.

So build your base but convert a POI to a death-trap you defend on 7 day horde nights. If it gets wrecked and you get killed, well, 7 day horde won. However you don't get completely wiped because that's not your home. You die, take XP penalty, lose stuff but you're safe at home.

Why do you think zombies don't track after you die now?

There's still wandering hordes, screamers, all that's still a threat to your base but it's manageable without cheesing anything. 7 day horde however isn't meant to be manageable. It's meant to be a huge, persistent, impending threat. You'll never be totally safe from it and that's the point. If there's no legitimate threat that it's going to win sometimes then the game itself has no real threats. However you've got to balance 'sometimes 7 day horde will win' with 'losing all my stuff could cost me hundreds of hours of work if it wipes my base'.

Horde base, living base. Not the same.

 

[RipClaw]

Maybe he does. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't a tower defense game. You could argue that he wants it to be one, if he stated that, but please look at the game and tell me it's more tower defense than survival & crafting.

Everyone sees something different in the game. Madmole sees the horde night as tower defense.

At my current base it would need at least 16 demolishers that go off at the most efficient position, to get my in trouble. I haven't seen a single one yet. At the time I will experience 16 demolishers, my base probably has grown a lot in size.

You'll see.

So what's the difference between a 2 block deep moat with concrete on it's inner side and a 3 block high wall on top of it versus a 5 block high wall? In both cases the height difference is the same and the materials needed are the same.

The difference lies in the path costs. A path at ground level is cheaper than one where the height changes. Even if the zombies fall into the trench, they run out again instead of hitting the wall. It's about directing the zombies where I want them to be without breaking anything.

If it does make a difference in zombie behaviour it isn't because the moat itself is tactical advantageous, but that the ai treats it differently. At that point we aren't taking advice from castles, but are cheating the ai. So assuming you are right, it still doesn't change my point that not everything we did in real castles works the same on zombies.
Also cheating the ai is probably the safest way to get your strategy patched out in the long run. At least as long as TFP is actively working on improving the ai.

That's not cheating. I only use my analysis of the behavior of the AI. This the same as studying an enemy in real life. Information about the enemies are the base of most successful strategies.

Do you know Sun Tzu ? One of the most famous quotes from the book "The Art of War" is:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

I guess that's something that could change any minute. I don't see it as a long time strategy in any way.

Sure, the AI can change again, but then I just have to test everything again and adapt my strategy. Better than using firepower only.

And as I said up until now not a single module failed in any game. That will probably change by the time I get demolishers going, but I rather have to rebuild a parts of my base than be at risk of dying.

I run tests with hordes that are much stronger than what I get later in the game. So I can optimize my base design instead of just hoping that the design will work in the long run. For example, I tested my base design in A17 against a gamestage 900 horde. In the game my maximum was a gamestage 550 horde.

 

[Boidster]

I think you underestimate the demolisher.

Quite possible. It is why I mentioned tweaking the balance to suit my play style (and OP's). Others say that they go down in a couple of seconds with an M60 so I guess I'll see what tweaks are ultimately required.

 

[jdm311]

Leave nothing to chance. A true engineer.

 

[Hek Harris]

I'm a little confused about the game direction now and what to do and I feel like im getting pigeon holed into a paticular play style.
Im a builder at heart and I like the idea that im able to try and build a base to withstand the horde, but with each recent patch It seem the direction the game is going is to not have a horde base at all. Heres what I mean:

- Previously I was a underground bunker person, but then Digging zombies where introduced

- I changed it to a overground fort, but they they updated AI pathing

- I adapted to "Pathing Base" build, but now they have Demolition zombies

- Adapt to not have a horde base and run at night, Zombie speed are increased.

Currently in B149, I have either few options left from what I can see, Ride around on bike all night (which is not run and boring) find a cheesy ass base build that may result in abuse of a glitchy mechanics (like floating bases), run around with mass amounts of grenades (not that fun for me)

So to my question, how does the the game/ TFP want me to play? Becuase im running out of options now. Does any one feel like their options are being limited?

Side note: I do like the New perk system. This is specifically, just for the overall playstyle.

Sounds like TFP want you to live a survival experience. You know : adapt or post.

 

[Jihh]

I only use my analysis of the behavior of the AI. This the same as studying an enemy in real life. Information about the enemies are the base of most successful strategies.

So in a real life scenario you would count on zombies always taking the same route and thus leave a weak spot they could potentially exploit? If not than it's cheating the ai. Don't get me wrong everyone can play the game he likes, I don't care. My whole point was that you can't just copy paste real life castles and expect that everything works the same on zombies. Your argument, that the ai just changes the path supports my statement because moats were mostly used to prevent siege weapons and siege towers to be used, not for humans changing their path. It's just a coincidence that the ai behaves illogical and thus moats having an effect on them. That could change with at any time.

Better than using firepower only.

I never said I rely on firepower. If I recall correctly I even stated that I don't need to attack zombies at all. It's a nice bonus to reduce damage and gain experience and some loot. Of course I'll have to kill birds and now that cops puke through bars, I'll have to kill them too. I also have to walk some steps every now and then.

It's more about not losing my advantage until the zombies destroyed my complete base. There is no weak point they could exploit to get to me before they destroyed everything. I too can lead them to walk most of the time instead of attacking and pulling them throught spikes and traps while doing so.

I run tests with hordes that are much stronger than what I get later in the game. So I can optimize my base design instead of just hoping that the design will work in the long run. For example, I tested my base design in A17 against a gamestage 900 horde. In the game my maximum was a gamestage 550 horde.

That's nothing I could do in real life, so I don't see that as a valid strategy. I rather see myself failing at some time (what didn't happen yet) and come up with new strategies then, than testing out bases in creative mode. In the end it's a survival game.

To be honest, my first base in my very first game failed. I didn't know how to play the game and apparently having two doors instead of one didn't do the trick, even with me having a position to shot at zombies. I still managed to survive and haven't died in single horde night in the 2450 hours I played the game. I'd actually be happy, if some day my base fails and I have to come up with something new, since it gets boring always having a safe base. I build other bases for fun, but always had my backup ready (without needing it once).

 

[Boidster]

In my experience on this forum, ANY building style that is particulary effective against zombie hordes just by design alone are going to be called cheese by a handful of people.

This sentence is the most true thing in this thread.

 

[Ascillian]

Its almost as if you are not supposed to have completely imprevious base and are not supposed to be fully safe during blood moon, eh?

I totally get this, and I don't want to just dig three squares down, slap a wood frame over my head and ignore hoard nights.

But I loved having an underground home base....a place I could dig out lots of rooms, arrange my crafting benches and boxes and even maybe throw down some fun furniture just because...without having to worry about wanting to make some stew and having zombies somehow notice and drop through the ceiling onto me.

For above ground bases, I like being able to build logical defenses...and have them work. Having zombies all be idiot savants who mathamagically calculate the exact weak point in my structure, and then hulksmash their way in just feels busted...it makes half the blocks pointless and makes building a 'defended' base null and void. The fact that kill corridors are the meta is just sad to me.

I have never done hoard night in my home base. I'm actually really bad about falling off stuff on hoard night, so it's pretty common for me to be running around the ground, on hoard night, with the hoard chasing me as I kill them.

 

[Hek Harris]

I have never done hoard night in my home base. I'm actually really bad about falling off stuff on hoard night, so it's pretty common for me to be running around the ground, on hoard night, with the hoard chasing me as I kill them.

SHAME ON YOU !!! Kidding, if it's possible, let's do it.

 

[Shin]

Reading all these posts are pretty boring. Playing A18 is pretty much the same... Way better than A17, but still boring. I do not feel a need to play anymore. I wish Madmole and TFP the best but I do not agree whith what they do anymore.

The game has turned mainstream and I dont like it. Over and out.