PC How do you deal with demolishers?
- Thread starter SenLim
- Start date
I could also be mistaken, but I think it's the ammo that makes the difference. AP ammo, regardless of what gun they're loaded into, will have penetration depending on how many skill points you have into the appropriate perks.
hiemfire
New member
As I said, iirc the Penetrator perk is only supposed to affect attacks from rifles (pipe, hunting and sniper) as far as ranged weapons go and is separate from what the ammunition does. What they are describing sounds like a bug.
It also effects bows/crossbows and spears in terms of armor decrease. Rifles are the only thing that gets to penetrate multiple enemies, though.
You know what, you're completely right. I think I was just assuming penetrator affected any weapon that used AP 7.62s. The description of penetrator is pretty clear that it doesn't. While using AP rounds in any gun will grant a flat percentage of armor penetration, there's no added bonus that comes with the penetrator perk. It wouldn't surprise me that chaos is just assuming that as well and that there isn't in fact a bug. Haven't done any testing yet.
RhinoW
New member
Don't respect demolishers, that's what will get you killed. Either pop them from afar, or gun them down with auto weapons with AP rounds... though I'm saying this because I have the penetrator perk which maxed out allows you to deal raw damage to them.
Also it's one of the absolute worst enemy designs in history.
Also it's one of the absolute worst enemy designs in history.
Without demos later horde nights with everyone having best weapons would be boring as the zombies have no chance. So glad the absolute worst enemy design got added to the game
RhinoW
New member
It doesn't take the fact it's a bad enemy design. So many more concepts could've taken its place. It's not like hordes don't get easy anymore, because they do, and they become trivial after a while since its always the same thing, bullet sponges hitting your walls, with the exception of the cop.Without demos later horde nights with everyone having best weapons would be boring as the zombies have no chance. So glad the absolute worst enemy design got added to the game
They just put a kamikaze effect on the toughest enemy in the game, that already deals 500 block damage with each attack. You don't need the explosion. Not to mention the concept itself connected to its visual design doesn't make sense at all. (C4 strapped to a military guy and a bunch of nades or canisters whatever around him?)
Here's better examples:
Horde of kamikazes, self explanatory, low hp, glowing, really fast zombies that just want to blow up
Bruiser tank zombie (demolisher but without the explosion, and much more focus on his melee attacks, perhaps a small AoE punch that also damages blocks)
Driller zombie that while not as fast, would have mutated hands that allow him to destroy stone/concrete blocks really fast.
Support buffer zombie that, well, buffs nearby zombies
Screamer that stuns the player with a projected scream, making him miss shots and lose pressure
EMP zombie that destabilizes and makes turrets and eletric equipment malfunction in a radius around him
Riamus
Well-known member
I like them.
It is fun to blow them up and create craters around the base. The only time I ever ran into trouble with them was when I tried out a tower horde base design and one got inside the tower and blew up. That was bad. But it was my fault for the design. Other than that, they aren't a big deal unless you are trying to kill them face to face inside your horde base and aren't careful with your shots.
lord_ahriman
Member
My horde defence got, give or take, 50% destroyed, because electric fences are now setting demos off. Day 21, snow, 64 zombies, gamestage 183 I think 3 or 4 explosions and a just concrete horde defense got damaged pretty bad, but I managed to kill entire horde close to 1 am (742 zombies killed). Of course it was possible due to a massive amount of pipe bombs, but that's the only way to face a very hard horde night in A21 early game.
The demo without the explosion would be just what you deride, a bullet sponge.
Kamikazes with low hps can just be targeted as priority and are easy cannon fodder unless just one of them has the same destruction potential as a demo and then what is the difference really? Same goes for driller zombie, just that you can easily shoot at him without having to fear the explosion.
RhinoW
New member
But the demo is by all means a bullet sponge already, that if you miss a shot, destroys your base. You kinda proved my point there.
Kamikazes with low hp can be targeted as a priority, much like the demolisher, yes, that's the whole point of the demolisher, getting your attention, without it being a BS enemy for the most part (mind you, I don't really have that many troubles with demolishers, its simply a bad design overall). Lots of kamikazes will force you to take quick shots or they 'll explode upon attacking the wall. Different than the demolisher, its high octane time attack with them, while not being spongy.
The driller zombie would simply breach your walls, and you would have to spot him, since he won't be glowing like the demolisher from a mile away. And the fear of the explosion, is the fear of the explosion that goes through walls before breaking them, considering most electronics have awful resistances anyways. Not breaching my walls. He already does that without exploding. Which the hypothetical breacher/driller zombie, would do.
And I like how you didn't mention the other ideas. Because your original point was boring and samey blood moons, which those other 3 fix, in a more dynamic and diverse manner, than "another high HP zombie, but this one goes boom if you miss a shot, if you don't shoot anyways, he will break the wall fast, so kill it fast, also screw your turrets, blade traps and spikes, oh and he also has 60% damage reduction if you dont use AP"
meilodasreh
New member
The easiest way to "handle" them is how I do it:
Just lose interest early enough and start over again before they even show up
...considering we're in experimental state, where it is so likely that every randomly apperaring next build will mess up your savegame,
I think it is a thought-out strategy
Just lose interest early enough and start over again before they even show up
...considering we're in experimental state, where it is so likely that every randomly apperaring next build will mess up your savegame,
I think it is a thought-out strategy
Old Crow
Well-known member
Would we really need driller zombies? The normal ones already dig ridiculously fast anyway.
That said, I like the other ideas, they'd be be really interesting and would be super fun. Something Meganoth hates. XD
What is the explosion adding though? The demolisher is already a bullet sponge, with or without the explosion, so I don't see your point. And who cares which zombies are prioritized? We already prioritize demolishers, so why would that better than prioritizing a different threat?
You forget that it wasn't me that brought up the old "bullet sponge" complaint. The demos explosion has 3 effects:
1) You have a choice exploding him in a save distance if you spot him early enough and have a long range weapon (range is otherwise very useless in the game due to the limited distance that gets loaded).
2) It makes it more difficult hitting him without exploding him when you don't want to explode him. Give me a auto shottie or m60 and I can simply burst-kill any demo without explosion ability because I don't need to actually aim too carefully. Our group has seen lots and lots of demos exploding unwanted because we were not careful enough with shooting at him. Every other zombie in the game is killed easily with burst-shooting, the demo finally rewards players when they aim carefully.
3) The demo himself (depending on base design) seldom kills you. His most interesting effect is that he randomly "changes" your horde base, removing access ways and at worst thinning protective walls to you or opening new access ways for the normal zombies to go through. This tests the redundancy you might have built into your base or your own ability to react to changed circumstances. Ever built up your base so much that the zombies had no chance anymore? Some players like that, but usually it means even horde night gets boring. Only the demo explosion has the chance to mix that up again.
Some of Rhinos ideas have some of the same effects, for example the kamikazes, but I really don't see why the kamikazes should be such a great idea and the demo the worst idea ever.
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If a single demo destroys your base if you miss a shot you have a badly designed base
. *I* don't have anything against zombies with lots of HPs, but the demo adds the additional difficulty to kill him safely without just trivially keeping your thumb on the trigger. That volatility you seem to fear is exactly what makes him into a danger.If the kamikazes have in sum the same hps as a demo then what is the difference really? What makes the kamikazes NOT a bullet sponge in sum when you need exactly the same amount of bullets to get them off the map and they spawn at the same time (if I get your idea right) ? You were repeating your "bad design" mantra without having first argued why really, while some of your new ideas seem like weaker copies of some of the demos features so you presumably have an easier time. At least in your last post you brought up a short summary why you don't like the demo, thanks for that.
I don't think most of your ideas are really bad, but I also don't want to waste my free time analyzing each and every idea someone brings up. Actually it would be more your task to argue for your ideas with a honest analysis of advantages and disadvantages. Ideas are like food recipes, everyone has dozens of them, but only a few are really good. Worse, ideas are recipes without quantities so someone assessing them has to do most of the real work himself.
At a first impression I would say some of your ideas would not bring that much difference to the game **unless** they were actually bullet spongy. I could say a lot more, but I would need to write a few paragraphs to discuss every single idea of yours and its likely consequences. And then you would simply come back with "But I meant this zombie to have this additional characteristic I forgot to mention" and it would go into another round. Sorry, I have seen this too often.
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Old Crow
Well-known member
I think the idea is the kamikazes are faster, and thus more of a challenge to deal with. It kind of reminds me of an enemy from Dark Souls 2 - they run up to you, jump at you, and explode on their own.
RhinoW
New member
You purposefuly dodge my points about the demolisher and fail to understand why he is a poorly designed enemy. I should just drop this, but let me explain it to you slowly.If a single demo destroys your base if you miss a shot you have a badly designed base
If the kamikazes have in sum the same hps as a demo then what is the difference really? What makes the kamikazes NOT a bullet sponge in sum when you need exactly the same amount of bullets to get them off the map and they spawn at the same time (if I get your idea right) ? You were repeating your "bad design" mantra without having first argued why really, while some of your new ideas seem like weaker copies of some of the demos features so you presumably have an easier time. At least in your last post you brought up a short summary why you don't like the demo, thanks for that.
I don't think most of your ideas are really bad, but I also don't want to waste my free time analyzing each and every idea someone brings up. Actually it would be more your task to argue for your ideas with a honest analysis of advantages and disadvantages. Ideas are like food recipes, everyone has dozens of them, but only a few are really good. Worse, ideas are recipes without quantities so someone assessing them has to do most of the real work himself.
At a first impression I would say some of your ideas would not bring that much difference to the game **unless** they were actually bullet spongy. I could say a lot more, but I would need to write a few paragraphs to discuss every single idea of yours and its likely consequences. And then you would simply come back with "But I meant this zombie to have this additional characteristic I forgot to mention" and it would go into another round. Sorry, I have seen this too often.
- The demolisher, like all late game enemies in the game, has around 800-1200 HP
- The demolisher has 60% damage reduction on top of that
- The demolisher stomps spikes and doesn't take damage
- The demolisher deals the highest amount of block damage to your base (500)
- The demolisher is a steroid version of all other common zombies with the ability to stomp spikes.
So what makes the demolisher so terrible?
The fact that it punishes you and your base, for playing the game. It's the only enemy, in the game, that requires the same focus fire as all other zombies, but even more so because of the damage reduction, but you have to carefully aim to avoid being punished for literally shooting at a zombie horde "trivially" (whatever the hell that means in this context). This is not his "ability", this is artificial difficulty that goes against the main flow of the game, you don't simply put a nuke on the tankiest enemy, that can go off if you miss a shot, on a game about unloading lots of ammo on hordes of zombies that are breaking the blocks in your base.
- Traps can set him off, making your own turrets work against you
- Explosives can set him off, which I think is fine, because explosives are very good anyways, so I agree with that
And in the end, it adds nothing to the game, because his "ability", only acts if you miss a shot or he gets caught in a turret. Which is just annoying, if you can't see that on a game that's about base building and fighting hordes of zombies, I really don't need to continue this thread further. The cop does a much better job at this already, and is the game's best designed zombie yet. Imagine if the gargantuan from plants vs zombies had a chance to explode upon being shot, that's what the demolisher is.
And no, I don't have much trouble with demolishers, and my bases are not poorly designed. The demolisher is objectively a bad design that was shoehorned to create a difficulty spike, instead of having creative blood moons. The blood moons are still easy and will continue to be easy, no matter how many bullet sponges they add to the game, the only thing that will make them harder and more fun, is engaging fights with actual special infected (or nerfing ammo, that's way easier and much more cost efficient in production value am I right lads?)
It's not rocket-science to understand this, I could tune up the damage of the zombies to ridiculous levels, and make the game difficult in ridiculous ways, it doesn't mean its well designed, but it sure as hell gave you more difficulty.
Also, you don't have to defend this game tooth and nail. We're all on the same page here, I like this game as much as you do, if not more, that's why decisions like these annoy me. And seeing people blindly defending it without questioning stuff annoys me even more.
Vampirenostra
New member
just shoot em in the face
