PC How about getting rid of secondary attack and put in shove

Jesus, it's like none of you have swung a bat in your life!!
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Again, bringing realism into a video game? I guess 7 days is the first or one of the first FP games you've played. Very very very very few games in first person, or third person, allow a swinging arc like a baseball bat. Video games are not real life simulators. Real life simulations in a video game, such as 7 days, half life, half life 2, counter strike, grand theft auto, call of duty, quake, doom, etc just don't work. Try that for common sense -- 7 days to die is not a realism simulator. What you just posted isn't realism. The problem with that is you start adding in the melee rays and you're whacking buildings and everything. They'd have to completely overhaul the entire way melee works, then have to redo it for mining and breaking blocks. All of that because some people cant put a crosshair on target? lol

Thats common sense heh. Left for dead doesnt have a voxel world, nor mining, not breaking down door/wall/ground etc blocks. Different ballgame. They can get away with it. 7 days cant without it being annoying + an overhaul

 
Now, what they COULD do if people are having trouble is to implement a aim-assist function. But arc sweeping is just too much for this game unless they rework a lot of stuff,

 
Here is what they did on the Left 4 dead 2 for melee. This is all we're asking for.

A melee swing will create hit rays every tick as it sweeps through the swing animation, as shown above. These images were generated at 90 tick to emphasize the sweeping motion. As shown below, the melee rays begin behind the player's eyes. Behind the eyes being the origin explains why crouching or looking down makes melee weapons more effective, since more of the rays will be swinging at larger portions of the infected's hitbox.

from this link:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=412007318

Posted earlier by Deceptive Pastry.

And in a different discussion, some other users talked about priorities I think it was, so that way the zombie takes priority over items around them so not everything is taking damage in the voxel world.
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That's a fantastic system!

I'd like to see something like that in 7DTD.

 
You're right, My bad. common sense is no different than realism.

I'm clearly wrong about the melee. Let's just adapt to the full on broken system. That's obviously easier than doing it right.

And I don't think they'd have to rewrite the whole system. If the zombie is priority it gets hit rather than the surroundings. Otherwise you hit the surroundings like you do now.

 
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You're right, My bad. common sense is no different than realism.
I'm clearly wrong about the melee. Let's just adapt to the full on broken system. That's obviously easier than doing it right.

And I don't think they'd have to rewrite the whole system. If the zombie is priority it gets hit rather than the surroundings. Otherwise you hit the surroundings like you do now.
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Is there a voxel game that does it the way you want? Honest question, I have no idea. Voxel changes the way a lot of systems have to operate.

 
Is there a voxel game that does it the way you want? Honest question, I have no idea. Voxel changes the way a lot of systems have to operate.
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I honestly couldn't tell you. But it's the way it is now, if you miss the zombie and hit the wall the wall takes damage. All they have to implement (according to other people that understand programming) is the zombie taking priority in the ray cast. Thus hitting the zombie or person or whatever is priority in the swing.

Currently, if you shoot an arrow and miss it sticks in the wall. That's the ray cast. with impact/collision.

Just need a ray cast swing like in the link above, to determine where the melee swing will go, and if Zombie closest to you takes priority it gets hit, nothing else.

Do the same deal with shove, to get the zombies off you, take a stamina penalty, continue hitting with club.

 
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Again, bringing realism into a video game? Video games are not real life simulators. Real life simulations in a video game, such as 7 days, half life, half life 2, counter strike, grand theft auto, call of duty, quake, doom, etc just don't work. Try that for common sense -- 7 days to die is not a realism simulator.
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So you don't consider survival realism?

- fall from too high and you either break or sprain your leg

- don't eat you start losing stamina

- you bleed and die if not treat yourself quickly

- you get "thirsty" in this "not realist" game

- you get hot and cold

- I could go on and I'm not gonna...

You contradict yourself in your own argument. I stand by my comment of believing the melee needs adjusting, the ranged is fine.

 
That's my point tho. Is there another game where the wall even COULD take damage from a missed swing. That would seem to make a huge difference in the way melee works. I'm not a programmer by any means but I have read Faatal explaining it and it just seems to not be possible or efficient cpu wise to do what you want in a full voxel world like 7dtd. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.

 
1) I'd be content if they didn't change Melee Combat.

2) I'd be happier if they did.

It's when I play a game like Dead Island or State of Decay that I see the real difference.

Melee in those games is a thing of beauty.

You WANT to melee because it feels natural and fun.

[Also Dead Island has the best sound for crunching a head under your foot in the history of ever!]

I don't dislike 7DTD's melee. I think it's adequate.

The problem is that with the new changes, there's going to be a lot more leveling by killing zeds going on.

THAT IS FINE! I am not complaining nor saying that's bad in any way!

I just think if you're going to change the focus of a game [slightly] to a more melee heavy experience, the system needs to reflect that same focus.

In short, Melee could use a little love. It doesn't need it, but it would be nice.

 
That's my point tho. Is there another game where the wall even COULD take damage from a missed swing. That would seem to make a huge difference in the way melee works. I'm not a programmer by any means but I have read Faatal explaining it and it just seems to not be possible or efficient cpu wise to do what you want in a full voxel world like 7dtd. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.
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you and jug are arguing opposite positions on damage.

Jug says if you have a ray cast you hit everything including the zombie and walls if near them.

You're saying because it's voxel everything might take damage.

I'm no programmer either, but in one of the bug threads we were discussing the melee attack, and a couple people chimed in saying it could be done by assigning priority to the closest object, or zombie, or entity or something to that effect.

So entity takes priority over voxels, thus ray cast for swing pattern, zombie in path hit zombie.

It seems like it wouldn't need a complete rewrite.

 
Why not a kick button? you push the kick button, and it kicks the zombie away at a cost of stamina? certain weapons get a bonus or detriment to kick? and Kick can be used on crawling zombies and spider zombies for fun*.

 
you and jug are arguing opposite positions on damage.
Jug says if you have a ray cast you hit everything including the zombie and walls if near them.

You're saying because it's voxel everything might take damage.

I'm no programmer either, but in one of the bug threads we were discussing the melee attack, and a couple people chimed in saying it could be done by assigning priority to the closest object, or zombie, or entity or something to that effect.

So entity takes priority over voxels, thus ray cast for swing pattern, zombie in path hit zombie.

It seems like it wouldn't need a complete rewrite.
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N4zPBB0.gif


That..........is ....... actuuuually .... kinda brilliant!

I think .... that could really work.

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1) I'd be content if they didn't change Melee Combat.
I just think if you're going to change the focus of a game [slightly] to a more melee heavy experience, the system needs to reflect that same focus.

In short, Melee could use a little love. It doesn't need it, but it would be nice.
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I have these same thoughts. Before A17e came out, these kinds of things were far from my mind for this game. Now that I am face to face with these guys on a daily basis I want to do more. I've always wanted more variety in zombies... but now I want it even more because I see the same ones up close time and time again. Sometimes I wish they would at least wear different clothing. They don't want heads flying off too early, fine... but give us a popped eyeball, a dislodged jaw, flesh ripped off of the face from a barbed club... something.... anything.

 
I have these same thoughts. Before A17e came out, these kinds of things were far from my mind for this game. Now that I am face to face with these guys on a daily basis I want to do more. I've always wanted more variety in zombies... but now I want it even more because I see the same ones up close time and time again. Sometimes I wish they would at least wear different clothing. They don't want heads flying off too early, fine... but give us a popped eyeball, a dislodged jaw, flesh ripped off of the face from a barbed club... something.... anything.
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TFP agrees with you and the whole UMA thing was for that very reason.

They wanted variety.

Problem is the Unity Engine is a retard when it comes to UMA's and I doubt if any developer has gotten them to work without eating up huge chunks of resources.

That's fine if you are running static maps and you can afford to give up that much.

In a voxel game it's just not going to to fly.

Hopefully we'll see some sort of compromise but I have to be honest with you Atomic,

if I have to choose between variety and FPS..... I'm going to take performance every time.

 
1. It's not even a matter of realism...it's how you would expect something to work. Swinging a stick in an arc, you would expect to hit in an arc...The only way pinpoint melee aiming makes sense is if you're jabbing.

2. There's nothing about this being a voxel game that makes ray casts different than other games...casting a ray is casting a ray. The only issue that comes into play with this is if you swing at a block up close and have it so the first ray that hits is what does damage, you would hit to the right of where you aim. I still think this could be fixed by having a fan shape of rays that only interact with/damage entities, perhaps with less of an angle than L4D if you're expecting to only have a single ray do damage rather than hitting multiple targets, but also have a single ray that fires along with the fan of rays shooting directly forward just like now that only does block damage.

 
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1. It's not even a matter of realism...it's how you would expect something to work. Swinging a stick in an arc, you would expect to hit in an arc...The only way pinpoint melee aiming makes sense is if you're jabbing.
2. There's nothing about this being a voxel game that makes ray casts different than other games...casting a ray is casting a ray. The only issue that comes into play with this is if you swing at a block up close and have it so the first ray that hits is what does damage, you would hit to the right of where you aim. I still think this could be fixed by having a fan shape of rays that only interact with/damage entities, perhaps with less of an angle than L4D if you're expecting to only have a single ray do damage rather than hitting multiple targets, but also have a single ray that fires along with the fan of rays shooting directly forward just like now that only does block damage.
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My point of view on a voxel game making ray casts "different" was in CPU usage. Voxel games use a ton more CPU than other games. If (which I do not know) ray casts ALSO use a lot of CPU then Houston we have a problem.

 
Add it to the perk system, level 1 unlocks a basic shove, level 2 it gets batter, at level 3 you can get a kick, and 4 the kick becomes stronger, and at level 5 you can do shield slams (assuming shields are implemented)
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This reminds me of dead island or the better game dying light.

 
My point of view on a voxel game making ray casts "different" was in CPU usage. Voxel games use a ton more CPU than other games. If (which I do not know) ray casts ALSO use a lot of CPU then Houston we have a problem.
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At that point, we'd need someone with actual programming knowledge in ray tracing to step in and explain it to us. I don't know if it does or not, but if they're using ray tracing already for gun shots, not sure why it can't be extended without burning up the cpu. ;)

 
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