PC How about getting rid of secondary attack and put in shove

[leaderdog]

Quite honestly, I'd be happy if they just left the melee system the way it was in A16. Then I would be fine with everything. Just the current broken melee combat makes fast moving zombie and times where you're being cornered by multiple zombies an extremely fatal system.

Not because the combat is clever or done correctly, but because it is completely broken at the moment. And as some have mentiioned, the devs seem to be happy with how the melee combat is, which is just sad.

So I'm just throwing out a helpful solution, to correct the current oversight.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I agree with not making things more complicated if not necessary. In this case however, we are talking about a surviving zombies. The whole push away and kick is a classic survival tactic found in every zombie movie, show, comic etc. and is usually used during intense scenes where the odds are stacked against the character who struggles to do this while barely hanging on to life. I want more of those moments in this game. I also want to feel like I am the one trying to survive. The way it is, I feel like we are just a floating pair of arms... if it weren;t for multiplayer, you couldn't convince me otherwise.

 

[leaderdog]

The thing is with close quarters combat, or being cornered is. You can't run through the zombies. There is a collision there that doesn't allow for you to get past them, which means you have to fight your way out or die.

Which leads to the problem of the gun shot melee attack which doesn't give you an potential saving attack if you miss the twitchy dodgy zombies.

Which brings us to either make the weapon work correctly with a swing. If I collide with the zombies there is no reason a swing doesn't hit the zombie if it's immediately in front of you.

I don't think that's an unreasonable request. Failing that, if they prefer to leave it as a broken mechanic, a shove would at least give you the option to distance yourself from the zombie so you can put a swing in and try again.

And I'm completely happy with us the players not being able to just walk through the zombies, it's smart, but the current melee system doesn't allow for a reasonable chance to survive because of the gun shot melee attack. It's just a "cheap" and ,honestly, rather lazy way to make the game harder.

 

[sadpickle]

I think actually modelling collision, while obviously superior to the ray cast, is highly unlikely. That boat has probably sailed. They would have to tear out melee and rebuild it entirely. Unless I'm missing something, there seems to be nothing in the game right now that would support it.

 

[Deceptive Pastry]

I think actually modelling collision, while obviously superior to the ray cast, is highly unlikely. That boat has probably sailed. They would have to tear out melee and rebuild it entirely. Unless I'm missing something, there seems to be nothing in the game right now that would support it.

They could do it left 4 dead style. Shoots out a fan of rays moving right to left from eye level. If more than one ray hits the same target, target takes no extra damage. This would make melee much more powerful though, able to hit multiple targets. Or could make it so after one hit on any target the rest of the ray hits don't even fire or do no damage.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=412007318

 

[leaderdog]

They could do it left 4 dead style. Shoots out a fan of rays moving right to left from eye level. If more than one ray hits the same target, target takes no extra damage. This would make melee much more powerful though, able to hit multiple targets. Or could make it so after one hit on any target the rest of the ray hits don't even fire or do no damage.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=412007318

Wow, very nice. So there is an elegant solution to this issue. Hopefully the pimps will see this and integrate it into the game.

If not, then I sure hope someone with the skill to program will add it as a mod.

 

[Damocles]

I like shoving.

The power attack could be combined with shoving into the right.

-> press right MB long: power attack

-> press right MB short: push zombie away

Toppling a zombie could be combined with the other attacks, to make combat more complex,

like hitting a critical hit more often when the zombie is out of balance.

 

[Scyris]

I'd much rather have a kick!

^ This, also play dying light to see how useful kicking zombies can be. I kick them into spikes, off roofs, into fire/electric traps, sometimes I just kick them till they die (it takes forever thou) just because I can. Have it do hand to hand damage, and have a % chance to knockdown, like dying lights kick does, most of the time its bascally a knockback a bit, where they stagger a step or 2 back. Rarely you can boot them hard enough to knock them on their butts. I do love kicking those running climbing infected in dying light off high places. Like that crane, get one of em chasing you, and let em climb up only to get booted off the side, it never gets old.

in 7dtd, zombies knockdown chance could be based on its max health and what its current health is, lower their health is the easier and farther they get knocked down/farther back.

 

[Scyris]

The thing is with close quarters combat, or being cornered is. You can't run through the zombies. There is a collision there that doesn't allow for you to get past them, which means you have to fight your way out or die.
Which leads to the problem of the gun shot melee attack which doesn't give you an potential saving attack if you miss the twitchy dodgy zombies.

Which brings us to either make the weapon work correctly with a swing. If I collide with the zombies there is no reason a swing doesn't hit the zombie if it's immediately in front of you.

I don't think that's an unreasonable request. Failing that, if they prefer to leave it as a broken mechanic, a shove would at least give you the option to distance yourself from the zombie so you can put a swing in and try again.

And I'm completely happy with us the players not being able to just walk through the zombies, it's smart, but the current melee system doesn't allow for a reasonable chance to survive because of the gun shot melee attack. It's just a "cheap" and ,honestly, rather lazy way to make the game harder.

If your in panic mode its generally better to aim for a torso or leg hit over a headshot, Leg hits can cause a knockdown like stun pretty easly, and they are much easier to hit than a headshot. Like when I have a running zombie coming at me and I got a sledge, I swing a bit early, and by the time the sledge crosses over the crosshair which is when the raycast is "fired" the zombies head is in range and gets smashed Sledge has a 2.9 block range on normal swing, and with the swing speed you can swing when the zombie is 3.5-4 blocks away, and then walk into it or let it walk into the swing. The melee in a17 DOES takes some pratice to get used too. It'd be especally diffculty if your using a controller with how clunky aiming with a controller usually is.

 

[JCrook1028]

So you think removing the "power attack" and replacing it with a shove or kick is over complicating the game?
Other than, I guess, trolling I'd question if you read anything in the thread.

Beyond that I'd question if you've been cornered with multiple zombies hitting you?

I think it is the first step down the road to a complicated combat system yes. I've seen it asked for before and since the topic was raised I put in my 2 cents. Got a problem with that? Got any more words to try and put into my mouth that were NOT what I said?

Yes I have been cornered by a bunch of zombies by my own stupidity of backing myself into a corner. I've also fought my way out of it or died as a result of said stupidity. What's your point in asking?

- - - Updated - - -

The thing is with close quarters combat, or being cornered is. You can't run through the zombies. There is a collision there that doesn't allow for you to get past them, which means you have to fight your way out or die.
Which leads to the problem of the gun shot melee attack which doesn't give you an potential saving attack if you miss the twitchy dodgy zombies.

Which brings us to either make the weapon work correctly with a swing. If I collide with the zombies there is no reason a swing doesn't hit the zombie if it's immediately in front of you.

I don't think that's an unreasonable request. Failing that, if they prefer to leave it as a broken mechanic, a shove would at least give you the option to distance yourself from the zombie so you can put a swing in and try again.

And I'm completely happy with us the players not being able to just walk through the zombies, it's smart, but the current melee system doesn't allow for a reasonable chance to survive because of the gun shot melee attack. It's just a "cheap" and ,honestly, rather lazy way to make the game harder.

That's not exactly true. matter of fact the collision is so weak you literally CAN run right thru them. It's a very common fighting tactic (one I don't use btw) to run rigth at them, hit and then run right thru the middle of the zombie.

 

[leaderdog]

@JCrook1028

Fair enough.

But I'm sure the pimps said they weren't going to make a complex combat system. When they did say they were putting in a new attack, I think many of us expect a new animation and something actually new. Not just the same attack, only hits harder, that makes little sense to use.

The jousting you're referring too. Single zombies I think that works. Although I've tried it a couple times out of curiosity in the 221, and I got hit each time. Zombies can magically wang around in circles faster than you can when swinging.

But if you try to go through a door when a zombie is there, you aren't getting through, the jousting I believe you're bouncing off them slightly to the side. And same with multiple zombies, they block your path for the most part, and you get hit several times.

I tend to want to fight my way out, but current melee mechanic doesn't truly allow for that because of the constant misses.

As Scyris said you can aim for the body but the head shots give you the best chance for a one shot kill if you perk in the head shot perk (forget the name). And it's the natural attack seeing as we've grown up with the one to the head mentality when it comes to zombies.

And the reason I asked if you've been in that situation is many people don't realize how ridiculous the missing when attacking with a club is until they're in that back to the wall no where to go position. The vultures hitting you while you miss with a club is also a frustrating aspect. Plus there are so many people quick to defend the pimps in any situation even when it isn't warranted. They can take criticism, and need the feed back especially if they're wrong in their decisions.

Plus with Deceptive Pastry's post with the solution to the melee attack, I sure hope they'll look at it and seriously consider implementing it or something similar.

 

[LuckyStar]

@JCrook1028
Fair enough.

But I'm sure the pimps said they weren't going to make a complex combat system. When they did say they were putting in a new attack, I think many of us expect a new animation and something actually new. Not just the same attack, only hits harder, that makes little sense to use.

The jousting you're referring too. Single zombies I think that works. Although I've tried it a couple times out of curiosity in the 221, and I got hit each time. Zombies can magically wang around in circles faster than you can when swinging.

But if you try to go through a door when a zombie is there, you aren't getting through, the jousting I believe you're bouncing off them slightly to the side. And same with multiple zombies, they block your path for the most part, and you get hit several times.

I tend to want to fight my way out, but current melee mechanic doesn't truly allow for that because of the constant misses.

As Scyris said you can aim for the body but the head shots give you the best chance for a one shot kill if you perk in the head shot perk (forget the name). And it's the natural attack seeing as we've grown up with the one to the head mentality when it comes to zombies.

And the reason I asked if you've been in that situation is many people don't realize how ridiculous the missing when attacking with a club is until they're in that back to the wall no where to go position. The vultures hitting you while you miss with a club is also a frustrating aspect. Plus there are so many people quick to defend the pimps in any situation even when it isn't warranted. They can take criticism, and need the feed back especially if they're wrong in their decisions.

Plus with Deceptive Pastry's post with the solution to the melee attack, I sure hope they'll look at it and seriously consider implementing it or something similar.

I'll admit, there's work to do with the combat system.

It's by no means polished. Acceptable yes... but I wouldn't classify it as good.

When you play something like State of Decay and then play 7DTD after, you really see the difference.

So... while I don't feel as strongly as you do Leaderdog, I agree that there's some problems with it.

I tend to not bother at all with melee if I can avoid it until I get the machete.

Even then I'll take range over melee any day.

I just don't want to get infected.

Why take a chance with a lackluster melee system?

 

[OnlyMeiya]

A balance of ranged and melee as the situation calls for it.

 

[leaderdog]

I'll admit, there's work to do with the combat system.
It's by no means polished. Acceptable yes... but I wouldn't classify it as good.

When you play something like State of Decay and then play 7DTD after, you really see the difference.

So... while I don't feel as strongly as you do Leaderdog, I agree that there's some problems with it.

I tend to not bother at all with melee if I can avoid it until I get the machete.

Even then I'll take range over melee any day.

I just don't want to get infected.

Why take a chance with a lackluster melee system?

When I first began, I mainly used guns, had massive elaborate bases that I could snipe them from a distance, but that got to easy, and I play with the mentality that guns make noise that bring more zombies - which is what I feel the game should do as I've mentioned elsewhere. So I switched to using only melee for the majority of my play. So that's all I used except when I had to, then I'd pull out the sniper rifle and pop a zombie. And I grew to really enjoy the melee, simple yes but it was effective.

So when a17e dropped and the melee was a massive disappointment to me, It was rather frustrating. And it needs attention from the pimps to fix it. But if everyone just sits on their hands and say 'meh well that's just how melee is', then nothing gets fixed.

This game is a blast to play, some things just need fixing, but a lot of the new changes (thankfully they're altering) took away from what the game was... Fun. More end game content is all they need to focus on. The early game was fine. If the game you played only lasted 30 days or 50ish days. it wasn't a big deal because we'd start over again. Why? Because every game you start is a new experience.

I'll take a game that I can play and have a new experience each time over any cookie cutter, step by step this is what you need to do to get to the end. Those games get old, and have very little replay value.

I think the pimps have lost their way a bit, and I hope they find it again.

They wouldn't have loyal fans with well over 1000 hours if they weren't doing something right.

 

[LuckyStar]

When I first began, I mainly used guns, had massive elaborate bases that I could snipe them from a distance, but that got to easy, and I play with the mentality that guns make noise that bring more zombies - which is what I feel the game should do as I've mentioned elsewhere. So I switched to using only melee for the majority of my play. So that's all I used except when I had to, then I'd pull out the sniper rifle and pop a zombie. And I grew to really enjoy the melee, simple yes but it was effective.
So when a17e dropped and the melee was a massive disappointment to me, It was rather frustrating. And it needs attention from the pimps to fix it. But if everyone just sits on their hands and say 'meh well that's just how melee is', then nothing gets fixed.

This game is a blast to play, some things just need fixing, but a lot of the new changes (thankfully they're altering) took away from what the game was... Fun. More end game content is all they need to focus on. The early game was fine. If the game you played only lasted 30 days or 50ish days. it wasn't a big deal because we'd start over again. Why? Because every game you start is a new experience.

I'll take a game that I can play and have a new experience each time over any cookie cutter, step by step this is what you need to do to get to the end. Those games get old, and have very little replay value.

I think the pimps have lost their way a bit, and I hope they find it again.

They wouldn't have loyal fans with well over 1000 hours if they weren't doing something right.

Yeah... good post!

 

[JCrook1028]

When I first began, I mainly used guns, had massive elaborate bases that I could snipe them from a distance, but that got to easy, and I play with the mentality that guns make noise that bring more zombies - which is what I feel the game should do as I've mentioned elsewhere. So I switched to using only melee for the majority of my play. So that's all I used except when I had to, then I'd pull out the sniper rifle and pop a zombie. And I grew to really enjoy the melee, simple yes but it was effective.
So when a17e dropped and the melee was a massive disappointment to me, It was rather frustrating. And it needs attention from the pimps to fix it. But if everyone just sits on their hands and say 'meh well that's just how melee is', then nothing gets fixed.

This game is a blast to play, some things just need fixing, but a lot of the new changes (thankfully they're altering) took away from what the game was... Fun. More end game content is all they need to focus on. The early game was fine. If the game you played only lasted 30 days or 50ish days. it wasn't a big deal because we'd start over again. Why? Because every game you start is a new experience.

I'll take a game that I can play and have a new experience each time over any cookie cutter, step by step this is what you need to do to get to the end. Those games get old, and have very little replay value.

I think the pimps have lost their way a bit, and I hope they find it again.

They wouldn't have loyal fans with well over 1000 hours if they weren't doing something right.

I must say I'm honestly confused. In my experience melee is anything but a "major disappointment" in A17e. If anything I find it MORE effective. I used to be a lot more heavily archery focused but now I find myself almost entirely melee (club or machete, hate the sledge and never use it) based. Never had a problem hitting a vulture that attacked me from behind either. They're quite funny to watch go sailing away when you bash them in fact.

I've in earlier alphas done horde night from on top of iron bars shooting down or behind pillar 50's hitting thru them. Now I take it out on the street with melee because it is simple and easy. Granted I do use the occasional crossbow or rifle shot but 90% melee. I have videos of it on my channel if you want to see. (Yes I do this on never run so it IS easier than default but the same was true for all earlier alpha's too. walking zombies are a always standard for me)

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

I think the current issue is shock from the changes. It took a year for this update, and when it hit, BAM tons of change.

The pois are amazing, but the leveling has taken some getting used to. then we have these updates every week or every other week. A lot of drastic change.

I think the pimps should take two weeks between updates, and take the time to watch youtubers, and read feedback. this would not just alleviate some pain, but would help them see how we play, and determine if the next changes fit with their vision of the game.

 

[OnlyMeiya]

I think the current issue is shock from the changes. It took a year for this update, and when it hit, BAM tons of change.
The pois are amazing, but the leveling has taken some getting used to. then we have these updates every week or every other week. A lot of drastic change.

I think the pimps should take two weeks between updates, and take the time to watch youtubers, and read feedback. this would not just alleviate some pain, but would help them see how we play, and determine if the next changes fit with their vision of the game.

I agree here.

 

[leaderdog]

I must say I'm honestly confused. In my experience melee is anything but a "major disappointment" in A17e. If anything I find it MORE effective. I used to be a lot more heavily archery focused but now I find myself almost entirely melee (club or machete, hate the sledge and never use it) based. Never had a problem hitting a vulture that attacked me from behind either. They're quite funny to watch go sailing away when you bash them in fact.
I've in earlier alphas done horde night from on top of iron bars shooting down or behind pillar 50's hitting thru them. Now I take it out on the street with melee because it is simple and easy. Granted I do use the occasional crossbow or rifle shot but 90% melee. I have videos of it on my channel if you want to see. (Yes I do this on never run so it IS easier than default but the same was true for all earlier alpha's too. walking zombies are a always standard for me)

Interesting that you find it more effective. As I mentioned I only use melee unless I don't have a choice. If you hit the melee is effective, but the problem is the constant misses is what I'm bringing up. I'm not having trouble killing slow zombies. The problem is fast moving zombies are near impossible to hit and it just is frustrating.

As for vultures, one isn't hard to hit, maybe they fixed the hover over you and whack you a dozen times vultures, I'm not sure, but I got onto a roof, and didn't notice the vultures. 3 of them flew up and were on me, and I swung several times and was unable to connect with them. If it were an actual swing rather than the gun shot attack, I would have hit them and kept them off of me. But I just turned jumped to the second roof line, and cleared the building since I took to much damage. Now when I see birds I pull out the 9mm.

Of course we can adapt, and I'm not opposed to new systems, what I'm opposed to is the obvious way the current melee is broken. Some people may not have an issue with it like you, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks they plain borked the system and didn't bother to find a proper way to deliver an actual swing.

Like I said, if you make the swing a gun shot like the firearms, it's a cheap and lazy way to make melee combat harder. Perhaps they're driving us to use firearms since there are so many laying around, but there is a reasonable solution to the melee, it's whether the pimps will implement it or not.

Alpha 16, my bases were catwalks. I had spike traps I'd run around and if zombie cops came and there were to many of the others around for me to melee them, I'd have to run up on the catwalks to shoot them. But it was a new and exhilarating way to fight them and I enjoyed it immensely. I did try it in this alpha but with light weight blurry eyes after one beer, made it tough to hit anything, plus the broken melee made it impossible, literally impossible to hit anything. 24 enemies running and after a handful died on the spikes, they would avoid them when I ran around them. it was a complete cluster frack. I survived and then accidentally found out how terrible the new AI was and built my next base to exploit the AI. glad they're at least going to change the AI.

I've been watching games4kickz's playthrough for alpha 17, and he is now very sarcastic every time he misses with a melee attack that he knows should have landed and jokes about it. I'm not the only person this bothers.

 

[JCrook1028]

Interesting that you find it more effective. As I mentioned I only use melee unless I don't have a choice. If you hit the melee is effective, but the problem is the constant misses is what I'm bringing up. I'm not having trouble killing slow zombies. The problem is fast moving zombies are near impossible to hit and it just is frustrating.
As for vultures, one isn't hard to hit, maybe they fixed the hover over you and whack you a dozen times vultures, I'm not sure, but I got onto a roof, and didn't notice the vultures. 3 of them flew up and were on me, and I swung several times and was unable to connect with them. If it were an actual swing rather than the gun shot attack, I would have hit them and kept them off of me. But I just turned jumped to the second roof line, and cleared the building since I took to much damage. Now when I see birds I pull out the 9mm.

Of course we can adapt, and I'm not opposed to new systems, what I'm opposed to is the obvious way the current melee is broken. Some people may not have an issue with it like you, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks they plain borked the system and didn't bother to find a proper way to deliver an actual swing.

Like I said, if you make the swing a gun shot like the firearms, it's a cheap and lazy way to make melee combat harder. Perhaps they're driving us to use firearms since there are so many laying around, but there is a reasonable solution to the melee, it's whether the pimps will implement it or not.

Alpha 16, my bases were catwalks. I had spike traps I'd run around and if zombie cops came and there were to many of the others around for me to melee them, I'd have to run up on the catwalks to shoot them. But it was a new and exhilarating way to fight them and I enjoyed it immensely. I did try it in this alpha but with light weight blurry eyes after one beer, made it tough to hit anything, plus the broken melee made it impossible, literally impossible to hit anything. 24 enemies running and after a handful died on the spikes, they would avoid them when I ran around them. it was a complete cluster frack. I survived and then accidentally found out how terrible the new AI was and built my next base to exploit the AI. glad they're at least going to change the AI.

I've been watching games4kickz's playthrough for alpha 17, and he is now very sarcastic every time he misses with a shot that he knows should have landed and jokes about it. I'm not the only person this bothers.

Yea from the sound of it you're trying to hit within the swing itself instead of the point of aim. I hate to tell you but that is not gonna be "fixed". It is the intended behavior as per Faatal who did the coding for it. The hit is where the crosshair is when you hit the button. Period, nowhere else. So no more sloppy swing near the target and hit anyway. Now you hit where you aim and only where you aim. Once you realize that it works perfectly, every time.