RestInPieces
Refugee
This needs its own thread, let's not mix up the discussion.
PC Horde Night is DEAD
- Thread starter AtomicUs5000
- Start date
Khulkhuum
Refugee
Why not add a sprinter zombie, something like spider zombie, but very fast and very weak. This would make an ideal enemy for chasing vehicles when a player decides to run, at the same time being easy to dispatch if you're on foot (you can't fight while driving). Apart from pestering the players on vehicles, it could be a nice addition to make a sprinter zombie bloodmoon horde on some lower GS.
Considering various other types of Zs that could be added (and are not some supernatural mutants):
- Slender - slim, tall enemy with long arms, hard to hit melee as it has higher range than regular Zs, yet lower HP
- Midget - small, almost child like, fast on its feet, but can't hit hard. There were in a few games monsters made from children (Dead Space for instance), but i think it would be too much for 7DTD.
- Creeper - Draped in clothes that conceal it, as well as limit the sounds it could send out. Pretty regular on the inside, yet somewhat slower and very difficult to spot and hear.
- Volatile - Bulged more than the cop and spitting in the same way, very low HP but explodes when dying, no matter what. Explosion does semi-high damage to both blocks and entities, but he can be easily dispatched with single bullets from afar.
Additionally you can modify the current Zs to make them have some depth:
- Biker and Utillity Worker reworked - Head protection decreases chances to dismemberment of head (managable through XML edits)
- Soldier and hazmat reworked - Just like above, but armor provides protection against damage (managable through XML edits)
- Fat enemies reworked - Make their speed lower, i don't expect them to sprint like Usain Bolt, they already have higher HP and could have higher damage (managable through XML edits)
Considering various other types of Zs that could be added (and are not some supernatural mutants):
- Slender - slim, tall enemy with long arms, hard to hit melee as it has higher range than regular Zs, yet lower HP
- Midget - small, almost child like, fast on its feet, but can't hit hard. There were in a few games monsters made from children (Dead Space for instance), but i think it would be too much for 7DTD.
- Creeper - Draped in clothes that conceal it, as well as limit the sounds it could send out. Pretty regular on the inside, yet somewhat slower and very difficult to spot and hear.
- Volatile - Bulged more than the cop and spitting in the same way, very low HP but explodes when dying, no matter what. Explosion does semi-high damage to both blocks and entities, but he can be easily dispatched with single bullets from afar.
Additionally you can modify the current Zs to make them have some depth:
- Biker and Utillity Worker reworked - Head protection decreases chances to dismemberment of head (managable through XML edits)
- Soldier and hazmat reworked - Just like above, but armor provides protection against damage (managable through XML edits)
- Fat enemies reworked - Make their speed lower, i don't expect them to sprint like Usain Bolt, they already have higher HP and could have higher damage (managable through XML edits)
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
7D2D: "Players can log out so other blood moon skips should not be fixed!"
GTA SA: "Players can use cheatcodes so why don't we let him win instantly?"
Minecraft: "Players can play on peaceful, so lets not spawn any agressive mobs on hard."
Ingame design should try and fix its gameplay, even when an out of game action can break the gameplay.
THAT is player choice. Doing it ingame is destroying your own gamedesign.
AtomicUs5000
Refugee
I would probably limit it to just one attack. It wouldn't be the end of the world (in this regard, technically it is the end of the world, but I digress). There's no need to completely shred someone's work... just provide some inconvenience. If the player has not logged back in for a long time, then the server settings of shutting off their LCB after x days would probably kick in anyway.
- - - Updated - - -
Oh yeah, didn't say it was any good, lol. I only watched the first few episodes to see what it was all about.Your point is logical, however, as I see it, players being able to log out should not be accounted for at all, when it comes to deciding gameplay design.
I am not completely against BM rewards, however I disagree with a concept of a BM, that players want to participate, mainly because of rewards. I find that there is a logical fallacy in this concept, which is apparent, if you wonder what the purpose of any kind of reward is:
1) Players choose to voluntary participate in the BM in order to "get rewarded".
2) The purpose of any reward (item/perk) is survival.
3) BM is by far the most threatening event for your survival. *Return to 1) and loop until that makes sense.*
Unless we want the BM to be a "rewarding" event just for the sake of being rewarded, which is meaningless if you think how the above loop works, the BM must be a non-optional event, in which you just have to participate and defend successfully or lose something important. It's the only way.
To account for people who 1) choose to enable the BM and later 2) log out during the BM, doesn't make a lick of sense to me, while that option exists. Unless TFP plan to send some of their pimp goons to rough up people that log out, we should stop being concerned whether the BM can be skipped because people may decide to stop playing the game.
Let's end this "what if people quit the game" madness, especially when the BM is already optional through menu options, and focus the discussion on something that is not completely asinine.
It has 6.3 on imdb... Watching it happen in the game would probably be more entertaining.
OzHawkeye
Community Moderator
There's only so much TFP can do.
They can't disable the Logout button (realistically) any more than they can lock in Gamma settings (at all). I'm a big believer in "fighting the battles you can actually win", and those two examples there are both unwinnable battles. So, why spend time/effort/money (all much the same thing in the end) trying to?
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
again PLEASE LISTEN:
TFPs should not "fix" people logging out, changing gamma, using cheatengines in singleplayer, changing xml files and so on.
NOBODY IS ASKING THEM TO.
TFPs SHOULD fix ingame problems. People standing on a block avoiding zombies is an ingame problem.
Zombies not beeing able to dig downwards is an ingame problem.
Players beeing save on top of big pois is an ingame problem
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
And they SHOULD try and fix all ingame "exploits". This is required for a game to feel challenging.
Just because I can simply open the console commands doesnt make the game easier because it has nothing to do with the ingame design.
But if they give me a minibike which lets me avoid the horde, this seems an intended way. Which is bad.
OzHawkeye
Community Moderator
Well, your prior post was unclear, at least to me.
This post makes it clear, and we're agreed, things like Logout buttons and Gamma settings are beyond TFP's scope.
And I'm all for a thematically consistent mechanic that makes riding around on a minibike all night during the BM either dangerous, unrewarding (compared to facing the BM Horde) or both.
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
I'm very glad that we fixed this misunderstanding then ^^
AtomicUs5000
Refugee
I haven’t looked too much into all of the modding threads just yet, but I have enough to safely say that a mod like this will not be exactly easy even though the concept is so sweet and simple. Very little of this can be done with XML/xpath. They have a good system started with this modding support, but it is very limited. I basically would have to decompile the source code, deobfuscate, and hope that I do so well enough in order to read through it and find things to be able to hook into with scripts. Perhaps it’s not that bad once you’re into it. I’ll find out eventually. I am left confused because of how much it pushed that this game is great with mods, and yet in order to actually do that with any real creativity, you have to jump through hoops.
Radioactive rain - good idea. I think that is likely the best yet - gives the player the ability to bail last min on their vehicle but not without a danger and a penalty - not to mention not helpful if further plans were not made.
You would have to have an indoor structure too - mu current 7 day temp base would no longer work.
You would have to have an indoor structure too - mu current 7 day temp base would no longer work.
RipClaw
Hunter
If something like this will be part of the game, I'd have to build a tunnel or a roofed path from my horde base to my work base. Otherwise I have to stand around for half the night with no enemies left. Most of the time the horde ends shortly after midnight and all zombies are dead.
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AtomicUs5000
Refugee
That’s a really good point. This weekend I am going to start looking at decompiled methods. I’ll keep a look out for anything to detect when the horde is over as opposed to relying on when blood moon is over. However, If I am going through this trouble, I may look into finding ways to extend the action so it lasts longer without making it too boring early game.
The first thing I am concerned about though is coming up with a way to ensure it rains in all biomes. Weather is not global right now and each biome has different probabilities of precipitation. That needs to be bypassed temporarily.
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RipClaw
Hunter
Letting the horde continue after the last wave is not difficult. You can simply add another wave. There are already some modlets. For example the Blood Moon Trickle Modlet from Guppycur
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?98097-Guppycur-s-Modlets&p=893860&viewfull=1#post893860
In the console you can switch rain on or off. With the command "weather rain 1" you can enforce rain and with "weather rain 0" you can switch off the rain independent of the biome. If you can access the variable, it should be possible to enforce rain.
AtomicUs5000
Refugee
Yep. I was thinking exactly the same two things.
pApA^LeGBa
Hunter
Hiding on rooftops lasts very long. There is enough massive buildings for this. Nerdpole your way on the roof if you want no effort bloodnights. Did it once for the first 8 hordes. Only switched because we had someone who loves to build in our group.
Tried it on Day 77 in my SP. No problem.
So yeah let´s stop that. It´s not intended that we can get over bloodnights without any effort. And yes it´s no effort to clean the roof of let´s say the higashi tower compared to build a base from scratch that can survive on day 56.
It´s even more work to get a nice undergroundbase....
So F digging Zombies as long as rooftops are the easy way to go.
Tried it on Day 77 in my SP. No problem.
So yeah let´s stop that. It´s not intended that we can get over bloodnights without any effort. And yes it´s no effort to clean the roof of let´s say the higashi tower compared to build a base from scratch that can survive on day 56.
It´s even more work to get a nice undergroundbase....
So F digging Zombies as long as rooftops are the easy way to go.
RipClaw
Hunter
For me a horde would be simply incomplete without a self-built base.
I can understand when players fight the Horde on foot because anything else would be too boring for them but just standing on a roof, throwing molotow cocktails and shooting at the zombies would be too stupid for me. That requires neither creativity nor planning.
Didn't Madmole talk about a new zombie recently (for A18) who will self-explode and do massive damage to blocks?
A bug(?) of the current SI system is that you often can destroy all except one block of the ground level of many buildings without them collapsing. It seems a bit random whether blocks that have their foundation destroyed get re-evaluated. But I also had the impression it got slightly better between A16 and A17, subjectively it seems buildings collapse earlier.
Maybe some bugfixing or adapting the algorithm can also make the rooftops much less safe in the later game. I think they should still be an option early game if you put some work in.
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Lanadon Conners
Refugee
There is a fine line between what the Devs need to add/fix/adjust in a game and Player Responsibility. Because you can cheat at Solitaire doesn't mean card companies should glue the deck of cards together or if you can't play Checkers without cheating, then Parker Brothers HAS to make all the Boards with Sliders.
Things like "Nerdpoling": SP- Don't do it if you don't want too.. MP- Chop the bottom frame out when they are 4 stories up.. then you do all the floors collecting the loot and exp
Rooftop Hiding: Great for early game but with Bandits on their way, just how safe will they be when they can shoot from adjacent rooftops
Driving all night to avoid Hordes: You use up your gas.. I will collect all this EXP.
With the "Horde Night" adjustment slider, Horde Night isn't Dead.. It was in the players control to chose all along
Things like "Nerdpoling": SP- Don't do it if you don't want too.. MP- Chop the bottom frame out when they are 4 stories up.. then you do all the floors collecting the loot and exp
Rooftop Hiding: Great for early game but with Bandits on their way, just how safe will they be when they can shoot from adjacent rooftops
Driving all night to avoid Hordes: You use up your gas.. I will collect all this EXP.
With the "Horde Night" adjustment slider, Horde Night isn't Dead.. It was in the players control to chose all along
RestInPieces
Refugee
This is true for "meta" choices, not in-game choices. All the games you mentioned have rules you have to follow in-game, which makes for a solid game design. A dev will fix exploits because they allow the player to bend the game's rules while playing the game. But in the "meta"/game-irrelevant case where the player cheats or logs off, there is obviously nothing the dev can do about it and it's silly to discuss about that possibility in the first place.
So many things wrong with the above sentence.
I don't know which is the most criminally unintuitive option for the player to choose: "just skip the mechanic like it never existed" or "engage in the mechanic to grind XP". The former option in this choice, is by far the most obvious one, because it is cost-free, risk-free and vastly more convenient. Using up a little gas, which is so abundant, cannot even be considered a cost, especially compared to facing the horde. And choices with an obvious option, are not real choices in the first place.