PC Horde Night feedback - less smart zombies

Vaeliorin said:
That base I posted on the last page was from A16.  It had a single shotgun turret on each lane and spikes in the lanes, and could take on horde nights with full rad zombies without needing more than minimal repair (some of the poles on the inside end sometimes took some damage, and obviously the spikes.)  So no, it didn't require all that farming of materials and days to repair.

It did, admittedly, take about 3 in game weeks to dig out and build (with an augur), but that shouldn't be unheard of for having an essentially unassailable base.
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I know you can carefully craft a base that actually coerces zombies to follow a path because there is nothing else. Excellent achievement. But it is just the exception in the mass of possible designs. I never built such a base in A16, I don't know anyone who built such a base in A16. If we still had A16 AI, would you now be suggesting that all players always carefully copy that design so that they don't have much to repair? 

 
meganoth said:
I know you can carefully craft a base that actually coerces zombies to follow a path because there is nothing else. Excellent achievement. But it is just the exception in the mass of possible designs. I never built such a base in A16, I don't know anyone who built such a base in A16. If we still had A16 AI, would you now be suggesting that all players always carefully copy that design so that they don't have much to repair?
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No, I just didn't agree with your statement that all bases in A16 were the same, and that they all took forever to repair.  Honestly, in A16 I was usually done with cleanup and repair by noon on the day after horde night, so I just feel like you overstated how things were.

 
Vaeliorin said:
No, I just didn't agree with your statement that all bases in A16 were the same, and that they all took forever to repair.  Honestly, in A16 I was usually done with cleanup and repair by noon on the day after horde night, so I just feel like you overstated how things were.
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I stand corrected. "all" is certainly too much. I also forgot that a bug in A16 (the zombies who ran in circles when they couldn't reach you) made another design viable (the stilt bases) that actually did not get much damage either.

 
The zombies also dont come from the same direction which some people still don't know.  The direction changes throughout the night..  The AI also won't go out of its way to go through a hole that is too far away.  I've seen this often in bases that are too large.

 
Laz Man said:
The zombies also dont come from the same direction which some people still don't know.  The direction changes throughout the night..  The AI also won't go out of its way to go through a hole that is too far away.  I've seen this often in bases that are too large.
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This is true. But there are some players who will build a base small enough so that the "hole" at the end of the kill corridor will be pathed by every zombie that comes to the base. They could build a larger base so that the zombies wouldn't all path to one spot but they won't even if they claim that they wish there was more variety in zombie behavior. They won't let go of that design no matter how you explain that it is their own choice that is leading to a gamestate they aren't enjoying.

 
To cheese or not to cheese.  Meh, people's choice.  Some don't build bases at all.  Looking at you gazz. 

 
Roland said:
This is true. But there are some players who will build a base small enough so that the "hole" at the end of the kill corridor will be pathed by every zombie that comes to the base. They could build a larger base so that the zombies wouldn't all path to one spot but they won't even if they claim that they wish there was more variety in zombie behavior. They won't let go of that design no matter how you explain that it is their own choice that is leading to a gamestate they aren't enjoying.
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oh so true as usual.

thats why each game when i create a new map, i will choose diff perks in the order, test some different melee weapons (except the hand wraps) nope wont do no one any good to try to ask me why.. its my choice.. either way.. every game is fresh and goes differently and i will build at different locations and different style of base.

if the game is boring or repetitive.. you aint changing enough to make it different.. you get out of it what you put into it.

now i am teaching another newbie and damn i created a 7dtd mad man.. it is so refreshing to see people enjoy the game and not complaining. so when a20 drops, a lot of newbies fresh to the game will get hooked.  (i hope) :)

also... yes i am teaching him in a19.6b8 when a20 drops he will taste it new like the rest of the public who opts in will.

 
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Roland said:
This is true. But there are some players who will build a base small enough so that the "hole" at the end of the kill corridor will be pathed by every zombie that comes to the base. They could build a larger base so that the zombies wouldn't all path to one spot but they won't even if they claim that they wish there was more variety in zombie behavior. They won't let go of that design no matter how you explain that it is their own choice that is leading to a gamestate they aren't enjoying.
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People will mostly go for the most efficient route in games even though they don’t like it. Game companies constantly attempt to make changes, forcing players away from cookie-cutter builds/skills/strategies. This is most definitely not the place to debate which party is responsible for variety, so I’ll leave it at that.

The suggesting of building bigger is completely valid but for me the plan breaks down for one main reason. Zombies will seek out weak points from too far away, hence my main post suggestion. If I may ask, in your builds, how many breaching points to you have during horde night without moving the breach by patching?

 
John Black said:
The suggesting of building bigger is completely valid but for me the plan breaks down for one main reason. Zombies will seek out weak points from too far away, hence my main post suggestion. If I may ask, in your builds, how many breaching points to you have during horde night without moving the breach by patching?
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My preference is to take over pretty good sized brick building

POI's. I gut the the first floor and put a second wall inside the existing one. I fight on that floor through windows at the 2m height and make repairs as I can. If I notice zombies are through the first layer and beating on the second layer I retreat to the upper floor to shoot from above. I usually have about two to three points that could potentially breach. Usually the weakened points are on different walls so even once one breaches the zombies still pound on the other but it is true that once the breach occurs most of them come in through there. But by that time I've moved to my second level so I don't care where they come in from. That's the first couple horde nights. After that I usually fill in the bottom floor and simply fight from above.

I have noticed a significant relaxing of their rigid "one best pathway" behavior of A17 and they definitely path from a shorter distance than they used to. For horde night that is a good thing as it promotes more varied behavior but for the rest of the game week it is getting depressing as more and more zombies act erratically and choose ridiculous paths as they wake up in POI's. I really wouldn't like to see things get any more random from them as most of what I consider my preferred game happens during the other six days of the week than horde night, tbh. Horde night can be thrilling but it is just one event and I enjoyed this game long before horde night was even a thing.

If I had one wish it would be to have separate pathing rules for horde night and then I would hope that longer path detection and less random behaviors could be reinstated so the zombies behave more like they did in A17 while exploring POIs. Then I wouldn't mind if they made the zombies even a bit dumber for horde night. That being said, I don't want a return to pre-A17 horde nights. The way it is now if you build a basic bunker with sunken spikes you get a pretty close to classic experience. But if you want to design a kill corridor and funnel the zombies through it you can also do that and that also has a lot of appeal and it is something that could not be done effectively under the old AI.

 
Thanks for the comprehensive and detailed reply Roland. And I cannot agree any stronger with you that zombies should be smart, and not to wreck POIs during normal times.

I can also sort of convince myself that during horde night the zombies go into a frenzy, making them dumb, allowing for more beeline bashing with shorter pathing or SI annihilation mode if they can’t reach the player.

We have a good assortment of ideas and views in the thread. Hopefully the devs would consider exposing an option for us to play with horde night pathing, allowing gameplay to stay the same for those who prefer it the way it is currently.

Edit: What if during horde night some zombies actually became smarter, avoiding traps, Feral Wight? Secondary thing I know, just couldn't resist :D .

 
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I was reading you guys and thinking....

The idea of more "intelligent" zombies in daily game make sense, this will make more difficult to avoid them. Maybe the new sense will improve this.

But for BM I'm not sure if more "stupid" zombies will improved the challenge.

What do you think about more "structural intelligent" zombies for BM?

Some sort of dual behaviour, some of them will chase the player but others will attack the structures behind and around him.

Something similar to actual rage mode but more precise that search the effective collapse of the defense build.

 
Roland said:
If I had one wish it would be to have separate pathing rules for horde night and then I would hope that longer path detection and less random behaviors could be reinstated so the zombies behave more like they did in A17 while exploring POIs. Then I wouldn't mind if they made the zombies even a bit dumber for horde night. That being said, I don't want a return to pre-A17 horde nights. The way it is now if you build a basic bunker with sunken spikes you get a pretty close to classic experience. But if you want to design a kill corridor and funnel the zombies through it you can also do that and that also has a lot of appeal and it is something that could not be done effectively under the old AI.
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Is possible. Added to todo list.

They do still look for long paths, but they use reduced block health precision and may quit on the paths, based on intelligence, and do destroy area instead.

 
Yeah, having them a bit dumber and more direct on horde night would mean you gotta defend all angles instead of easily funneling them using their "intelligence" against them. It's just jarring to see multiple groups going ham on a wall, only for all the other groups to join whichever one weakens a wall first as soon as they detect the weakness.

 
bdubyah said:
Yeah, having them a bit dumber and more direct on horde night would mean you gotta defend all angles instead of easily funneling them using their "intelligence" against them. It's just jarring to see multiple groups going ham on a wall, only for all the other groups to join whichever one weakens a wall first as soon as they detect the weakness.
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They are only going to get so dumb. You build small bases and you limit their choices. Build bigger bases and since distance is a path expense, they will tend to not go the long way. One solution is just adding some totally stupid filler zombies.

 
faatal said:
They are only going to get so dumb. You build small bases and you limit their choices. Build bigger bases and since distance is a path expense, they will tend to not go the long way. One solution is just adding some totally stupid filler zombies.
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@faatal long pathing is the biggest issue for me.  Last time I played (few months ago), I saw a wolf coming at me so I popped a block on the side of a building and hopped onto it (with my parkour skills) to shoot at it from safety.  Instead of trying to break stuff down beneath me, it ran around to the other side of the building, broke through the door, ran up stairs and into the room behind me and started breaking through the block of the wall directly behind me.  I could expect that cleverness from a construction worker zombie, not a normal zombie, and certainly not an animal.

I really love how stupid the average zombie is in Dying Light.  It makes it so that you can easily lure them into traps and then have a good laugh. I'd love that same fun in 7 Days to Die where we have access to even more traps.  For me, the danger of a zombie apocalypse should always be the sheer number of zombies rather than their intelligence.  I understand some people have different ideas, but why not both? Super dumb average zombies, and clever specialized ones?

Just editing to add on to the above...
You could take away the jump ability from the zombies who used to be sedentary in their previous lives (like the business man etc) and give the jump ability to those that were active like the stripper, the skateboard zombie, and dogs.  That might make horde night less predictable, or less easy to find a meta if different zombies are different in their physical abilities.

 
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faatal said:
They are only going to get so dumb. You build small bases and you limit their choices. Build bigger bases and since distance is a path expense, they will tend to not go the long way. One solution is just adding some totally stupid filler zombies.
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I just mean, specifically for BMs, that when a wave spawns from the west, they run straight at your location and start beating on things. Not run up to the wall, realize one block on the far corner of your wall copped a stray rifle round and therefore has less HP, so they go to it instead. As Roland was saying, keep them as they are for normal, day to day POI clearing as it keeps it interesting. But it hurts BMs more than it helps, I feel.

Even on bigger bases what happens is once one zed damages a block, all zeds from that general side end up there. And small bases, as mentioned, they will run all the way around it just to find that weak spot, which is just jarring. I know we don't have the massive numbers of zeds people would like, but with higher BM counts it would get hectic pretty quick if you had to constantly check every corner of your base because they weren't so easy to herd around. Zeds being "smarter" here actually makes them simpler to deal with. You could always keep a certain amount as the current "smart" zeds, but the majority should just be dumb, straight line running zeds that start hitting whatever they come into contact with. Seems it could help with CPU usage as well since every single zed isn't doing advanced calculus to reach you. ;)

 
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