PC Hi - Im really worried about TFP and 7d2d

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You said it best:

It's just too much ad hominem and too little reason. As usual.
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Maybe you can try training fellow forum goers to actually look somewhere other than General Discussion. That's the real problem.
I don't really go look anywhere. Usually I see that Roland has posted somewhere, go to see whether his post was witty or putting people in their place, and sometimes I get sucked into that discussion. (Believe it or not, I leave a lot of them alone.)

The point is: blame Roland.

 
They were there once. It killed the thread.

Seriously though RestInPieces, suggestions belong in the Pimp dreams section. That is the entire purpose of that forum section.

Maybe you can try training fellow forum goers to actually look somewhere other than General Discussion. That's the real problem.
Hmm besides disguising suggestion threads as general discussion topics, (nsfw links warning) maybe I could try making my posts like this to train people to visit the pimp dreams section more often.

 
I know nobody likes me right now, but just want to point this out.
[h=3]Sticky: Dev Tracker[/h]

Stickied at the top of the News and Announcements section. Which should be the section most people looking for news would go to naturally.

There is also the relatively often updated first two posts of the current Dev Diary thread that contain a full list of known information, along with links to relevant posts for more information.
The dev tracker is somewhat better than following that thread and I used it occasionally, but it's inconvenient. Even when you bookmark the tracker itself, you have to find the dev you're interested in, then it does not even show the full post, so you have to click again to get to the actual thread and you only get a few of their recent posts and then not everything a dev writes is automatically interesting or relevant.

Roland's approach is much better, it's just one thread and then you can scroll through all the posts. It's still not the bee's knee, because you have chatty posts and jokes and irony that kinda distract, sometimes you don't really understand the context, particularly when the post, that the dev responds to, is not quoted.

People - "everybody" knows that - are used to getting information served on a silver platter. If you're the one who's expected to serve, that's inconvenient for you, I understand. But usually you are the one who makes a living off of those expecting people, so... It's a pretty good idea if you follow current conventions. And if you're a multi-million dollar company, particularly when you never get tired reminding people that you are, people will never accept that you don't spend a couple k's per year to provide an expectable service.

So I can assure y'all that there are two way you can approach the information issue: #1 give a damn and say so, like Roland does every now and then. #2 do as I layed out earlier in this thread.

Not if we could convince Kubikus, Meganoth, and Jedo to go post there... ;)
Ha ha you have 12,000 posts Roland maybe you should post there. But seriously the suggestion forum is merely a decorative element at this point.

They were there once. It killed the thread.
Actually, you killed the thread. It's kinda weird if you think about it, guys talking, along comes another guy like "nuff already". Why not just move off topic posts to the off topic forum.

Forbidding people to talk is a concept that is generally frowned upon. It's particularly delicate if there is an ongoing issue or controversy, as it tends to look like the company wants to suppress criticism, so potential new customers are not alienated. Many find that borders at deception.

You said it best:

It's just too much ad hominem and too little reason. As usual.
This is what "ad hominem" means:

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

We were having a bit of a personal conversation, so much is true, but I don't attack you.

But of course I'm perfectly fine to end the "discussion" with you, let's say we have different understandings what "reason" and "argument" means.

 
This is what "ad hominem" means:
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

...but I don't attack you.
I'll guess you'll have to explain to me how the following, your first reply to my questions about your methodology (questions which contained zero ad hominem), are not an attack against me rather than against my argument:

Because you don't like the outcome...
...as always, I was simply being objective.
Apparently, my response was motivated by personal preference, and you reinforced the difference between us as persons (not in our arguments) by claiming that you were completely objective.

Please, tell me more about this ad hominem that you don't do.

 
I'll guess you'll have to explain
I'm pretty sure I don't have to respond to your little remarks where you select what you respond to and what you ignore. Particularly when you decide to ignore my factual arguments whenever they are inconvenient to you.
I am also pretty sure that you will have the last word now, because contrary to the legend that I always respond to everything, I am finally done with you, as you fail to meet my minimum standards of communication.

 
I'm pretty sure I don't have to respond to your little remarks where you select what you respond to and what you ignore. Particularly when you decide to ignore my factual arguments whenever they are inconvenient to you.
Said the Pot to the Kettle...

 
Folks we are fine. We are putting our head down and trying to finish a very large and quite frankly over scoped build. The game has suffered from years of trying to make everyone happy with quick releases at the cost of sloppy framework which needs gutting. If we take a break to rip it out so be it. If we weren't so concerned with making you all happy then it might have gotten done right the first time.
Just stay calm and zombie on we will survive and this build will ship. And console will get updated one way or another :)

Cheers Richard
Hi Richard,

I understand how the technical dept is being accumulated over time and the need of it to be removed.

I favor clean solutions over hacks and I hope your efforts will be rewarded. ( one way or another :) )

For the time being, stay focused and keep your motivation high.

We all want a good game in the end.

Thank you for your post!

Menzagitat

 
Hi Richard,
I understand how the technical dept is being accumulated over time and the need of it to be removed.

I favor clean solutions over hacks and I hope your efforts will be rewarded. ( one way or another :) )

For the time being, stay focused and keep your motivation high.

We all want a good game in the end.

Thank you for your post!

Menzagitat
Yes! One Hundred and One....

;)

 
which is of course why major companies don't run a large staff, because more is worse...or something

wait, no that's not true

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah you're right. Nothing was given. That $10/$12/$15 whatever it was must have really hit hard. 5 years, 16 Alphas. It's not like each update was some minor cosmetic change either. But whatever. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and expectation.
He was absolutely right to smack you down. The claim (not just here, but on other games, in other communities) that we (the customer) are simply lucky to be able to be along for the ride, or that favors are being done for us that we don't deserve, is absurd. Whatever else early access MAY BE, it does not change the relationship between the customer and the company.

 
If you bought the game on steam, you actually definitely did not pay money for a final product. Steam makes it very clear that you are buying a playable game that may or may not be continually developed in the future. It also clearly states that if you are not satisfied with the state of the game at the time of purchase, to NOT buy and keep instead keep an eye on the game's future development to see if it evolves to a state that you are satisfied with.
Again, Steam makes it clear that you are purchasing the game as is at the time of purchase, but that you will also receive access to any and all future updates until it goes gold, assuming it ever does.

What we are all waiting impatiently for is bonus content provided at no extra charge by TFP. Reading comprehension will save you from unhappiness with future purchases if you read carefully before you buy. If you have a problem with reading comprehension, you really should have someone without such difficulties read it to you.
Just because you make the "It's just Early Access" argument into a 3-paragraph rant doesn't make it more impactful. Anyone who bought the game, no matter where they bought it, bought BOTH the current version, and whatever theoretical future version may come to fruition, to include the promise final features.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd like to take a moment to point out that this statement is wholly incorrect.
What you paid money for, was access to the Alpha version that was available at the time you purchased. Anything that comes after is icing on the cake.

You might want to go back and refresh yourself on the Seam Early Access Facts.

https://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/
And another....honestly, I wonder if you guys enjoy hearing yourselves talk. You're not impressing anyone with your knowledge of what EA is.

 
which is of course why major companies don't run a large staff, because more is worse...or something
wait, no that's not true
As a developer, Mythical Man Month is accurate. As with all things there are exceptions to the rule. But more often than not, it holds up.

There are very frequently scenarios where adding more developers won't help and in many cases will hurt productivity. You have to have work that logically can be divvied up in order for adding resources to make sense. Throwing 10 guys at one feature isn't likely to go well.

The major company argument is ridiculous. Larger company = more projects/work. More projects/work = more to divvy up. More to divvy up = larger staff. Even at a large company though, staffing up late in a project is likely going to decrease productivity.

They’ve used 7 Days to Die to successfully build a multi-million dollar business and they aren’t going to take consultation for their business practices from random internet dudes who primarily use 7 Days to Die as leisure time-wasting fun.
Feel free to disregard this as you have a multi-million dollar business and don't need the consultation of a random internet dude.

You guys need to do something about PR in the worst way. There's countless examples through the years of the need for it. This one is staggeringly bad. You have to know how Richard's post is going to come off. Even if it's not actually his intent, it comes across as blaming the community for TFP's shortcomings. It's an exceptionally bad look.

For what its worth, I'm perfectly satisfied with the countless hours I have gotten out of the game. Perfectly happy to wait on A17. Would rather it be done right than rushed. Can't wait to play it. Love what you guys do. Just pointing out that almost all the angst in the community over the past months could be so easily avoided with a half decent PR initiative.

 
I still think the production time is absolutely abysmal. Truly seems like there's major issues internally.
I'm on the fence of if TFP have abused the Early Access model. The Kickstarter model as well. I personally think, at this point, with this kind of communication and results, they have certainly crested over that requirement and are currently abusing both of those systems as well as mistreating the people who have paid into the game awaiting a final product.

Do not tell me about Early Access games. I'm a grown adult. I know full well about gaming, production, money, expectations, professional results, professional appearances, etc = I likely know more about Early Access than you, so please don't give me that song and dance.

Time will show that TFP are in default. It's time for them to produce some results.
Well its just the downside of the early access model, ppl like u will speculate, pull information out of ur asses and jump to conclusions like monkeys in a tree. Upside is...we get to play a major part in the development of the game, unlike before 2010 ish when there wasnt early access games.

And honestly, most ppl are getting tired of the argument "its taking too long, thefore they are scamming us". Without easrly access it would have taken longer.

 
which is of course why major companies don't run a large staff, because more is worse...or something
wait, no that's not true

- - - Updated - - -
Its about ADDING programmers to a late project.

Large companies run lots of small divisions and modular projects.

 
City of Titans (

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...e-phoenix-project-city-of-titans/description; https://cityoftitans.com/forums/announcements) has been in development for ~4.5 years with no EA. That means that nobody has been playing it during all of that time, whereas people have been playing 7DTD all through its development. This also means that they have remained a smaller team which has done large amounts of work on the side (i.e., after they come home from their paying jobs). Should we conclude that they have major internal issues? That they have abused Kickstarter? That they have abandoned their game? That they have mistreated their (future) customers?
I'll let the wise sages who know so much about game development decide.

 
Feel free to disregard this as you have a multi-million dollar business and don't need the consultation of a random internet dude.

You guys need to do something about PR in the worst way. There's countless examples through the years of the need for it. This one is staggeringly bad. You have to know how Richard's post is going to come off. Even if it's not actually his intent, it comes across as blaming the community for TFP's shortcomings. It's an exceptionally bad look.

For what its worth, I'm perfectly satisfied with the countless hours I have gotten out of the game. Perfectly happy to wait on A17. Would rather it be done right than rushed. Can't wait to play it. Love what you guys do. Just pointing out that almost all the angst in the community over the past months could be so easily avoided with a half decent PR initiative.
As I have stated, I too acknowledge the lack of PR. What I'm not ready to acknowledge yet is the need for it. I won't acknowledge that until the hard data comes back after A17 releases. If the numbers skyrocket back up and maintain and the reviews go back to positive then whether or not someone wants TFP to have a PR department smoothing out community angst or not is irrelevant. If TFP's reputation and goodwill with the community recovers just fine once the balm of A17 has been applied then they don't have to spend resources on something that ultimately doesn't matter.

If the returning player numbers is lackluster and the trend shows a dying player base then you can bet that they will spend resources to shore things up.

 
As I have stated, I too acknowledge the lack of PR. What I'm not ready to acknowledge yet is the need for it. I won't acknowledge that until the hard data comes back after A17 releases. If the numbers skyrocket back up and maintain and the reviews go back to positive then whether or not someone wants TFP to have a PR department smoothing out community angst or not is irrelevant. If TFP's reputation and goodwill with the community recovers just fine once the balm of A17 has been applied then they don't have to spend resources on something that ultimately doesn't matter.
If the returning player numbers is lackluster and the trend shows a dying player base then you can bet that they will spend resources to shore things up.
Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree on all of this. I think theres more to PR than the numbers and reviews. But as a business I totally get that that would be the overwhelming measure.

The best example I can think of off the top of my head for myself is EA and Madden. I loath EA for more things than I can count as does basically everyone I know. Will go out of my way to not play EA games. The one exception is Madden, cause I love football. Madden yearly has great sales. But everyone hates EA. The numbers aren't indicative of their PR.

Obviously its a bit of different situation. TFP doesn't have decades of ill will built up. TFP is not EA. Just illustrating that even though the numbers and reviews may wind up exceptional, because quite frankly the game is fantastic, it doesn't mean you don't have a PR problem.

Just my $.02. No real need to debate much more as my opinion on the matter is not going to influence a business.

 
I'd like to take a moment to point out that this statement is wholly incorrect.
What you paid money for, was access to the Alpha version that was available at the time you purchased. Anything that comes after is icing on the cake.

You might want to go back and refresh yourself on the Seam Early Access Facts.

https://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/
And another....honestly, I wonder if you guys enjoy hearing yourselves talk. You're not impressing anyone with your knowledge of what EA is.
I'm fairly certain that they are sick and tired of having to repeat the same basic facts that everyone should have read, researched, and learned before they ever purchased the game.

I'm almost positive that they are dead tired of having to teach entitled little children how software development cycles work.

Yet here you are, giving them ♥♥♥♥ for trying to educate the idiots that abound on these forums. He didn't even give any attitude in that post. It's merely facts. Facts you should know. Facts you should have been aware of before your purchase. Facts that you are wholly chosing to ignore because it doesn't fit into your little picture of how you want it to be. You would much rather live in your pretty little alternate reality where your always right, and anyone with actual facts is wrong, or lying.

You aren't impressing anyone with your stupidity either.

 
Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree on all of this. I think theres more to PR than the numbers and reviews. But as a business I totally get that that would be the overwhelming measure.
The best example I can think of off the top of my head for myself is EA and Madden. I loath EA for more things than I can count as does basically everyone I know. Will go out of my way to not play EA games. The one exception is Madden, cause I love football. Madden yearly has great sales. But everyone hates EA. The numbers aren't indicative of their PR.

Obviously its a bit of different situation. TFP doesn't have decades of ill will built up. TFP is not EA. Just illustrating that even though the numbers and reviews may wind up exceptional, because quite frankly the game is fantastic, it doesn't mean you don't have a PR problem.

Just my $.02. No real need to debate much more as my opinion on the matter is not going to influence a business.
I agree with you 100%. And I’m not saying that if numbers are huge it means that all is well. What I am talking about is the weight of evidence needed in order to move the needle. Companies won’t spend resources where they don’t believe a need exists. Low numbers would make the decision makers take notice and be open to change. High numbers are probably going to mean a continuation of business as usual.

At least in this case the update is the solution to the actual problem. People are upset by a lack of communication that effectively reaches them and the slow development cycle for A17. When Alpha 17 releases that will be communication of great news that will also lay to rest fears of abandonment and frustration of not wanting to start a new game. Then for the next month communication between community and developers will be high during the experimental process.

I for one am keen to see the returning player results this time around.

 
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