PC Hi - Im really worried about TFP and 7d2d

Yeah, like I said they're treating it like it's bethesda game modding. They said it somewhere on the nexus 7dtd forum like a mod author addressing a bug with their content. It's there on the internet somewhere when that's not enough to ease concerns for over a year's wait and Telltale exploding.

It doesn't matter if it was simply console publishing for a third party studio which is a whole nother can of worms, Telltale games is still on the box and it shuttering is deeply concerning for any normie with more than a passing interest in 7DtD.

It shouldn't take someone searching on internet forums, even if there is someone consolidating dev posts, most people aren't taking the extra step to even see or wouldn't even know it's there to see in the first place because the devs barely use social media.

 
Whatever you say. See you around, Pot!
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Jedo, you didn't respond to my question. Perhaps you missed it?

You were quick to point out the flaws in Kubikus' 'research', whilst not speaking out against Sylen's 'research'. How's that? Given that they come with the same partially-flawed methodology. Might there be a bias?

 
The returning player numbers after A17 will determine it all. If they are weak you can bet that there will be changes but if the numbers rise to a new record and the reviews return to positive then they’ll likely stay the course that has worked for them.
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I guess the amount of players TFP manage to retain after A17 comes out will determine it all, frankly. Yes, I guess there will be a massive spike in players after A17e drops. However, it would be interesting to see what the retain-rate for these players is 2-3 months post-A17. If they are back to 'normal', or pre-A17 plus-minus something, than I would worry.

 
Yeah, like I said they're treating it like it's bethesda game modding. They said it somewhere on the nexus 7dtd forum like a mod author addressing a bug with their content. It's there on the internet somewhere when that's not enough to ease concerns for over a year's wait and Telltale exploding.
It doesn't matter if it was simply console publishing for a third party studio which is a whole nother can of worms, Telltale games is still on the box and it shuttering is deeply concerning for any normie with more than a passing interest in 7DtD.

It shouldn't take someone searching on internet forums, even if there is someone consolidating dev posts, most people aren't taking the extra step to even see or wouldn't even know it's there to see in the first place because the devs barely use social media.
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Thing is that "normies" are not really their target market at this juncture. "Normies" would never have the patience for the bugs and the wiping required. This game is not just early access in name. It is indeed a construction zone and the developers treat it as a project in progress. From their perspective they have gotten the funding they need and now their primary concern is developing the game and for the non-normies like us who enjoy following the development process, this site with the developer comments and reveals is great. Faatal has given a goldmine of information and an inside narrative of the process of overhauling the AI and the pathing grid for the entities in the game. No "normie" is going to give a crap about that stuff. "Normies" treat the game like it is a finished product and updates to them are DLC's and playing a game that is problem free is all they care about. I think we have plenty of those at this stage of development demanding the devs to stop adding new stuff until all the bugs are fixed, and assuming that every single addition is the intended final version rather than just another step on the way.

Most "normies" who know they're "normies" haven't even purchased the game yet. It sits in their wishlist as they wait for it to be done because they know that they won't enjoy it until it is done. On some future day that notification will go out that 7 Days to Die is leaving Early Access and then all those "normies" will evaluate and assess whether they believe the final product is worth it to them or not. Some may feel the graphics are too outdated and unwishlist it and move on. Some may feel the zombie and/or survival genre is played out for them and unwishlist it. But quite a few will purchase and play and then get their friends to play too. Once it leaves Early Access and TFP wants it presented as a finished product to all the "normies"...hopefully, then, they will fully utilize all the social media, and trade journals (written and digital) to get the word out to all the "normies" that there is a super fun finished and well running zombie apocalypse survival game all ready for them.

 
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This is exactly what happens to any topics at Steam with an opposing thought or opinion - Especially Sylen - This is immediately what you say to everyone.
"YOURE TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING YOURE SAYING"

You've even tried the "You're wrong about what youre saying" to me in this very post itself. It's literally what you say to everyone.

Never seen mods act like that.
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What's really funny though is that 98% of the time he is literally right. So you're not used to mods correcting you when your wrong. Boo Hoo.

It's refreshing having moderators like Roland, SylenThunder, and RedEagle who aren't afraid to shove reality right in your face.

 
It shouldn't take someone searching on internet forums, even if there is someone consolidating dev posts, most people aren't taking the extra step to even see or wouldn't even know it's there to see in the first place because the devs barely use social media.
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They do use social media though......https://twitter.com/7DaystoDie/status/1043571076687638528

https://www.facebook.com/7DaysToDie/

Then they have entire threads dedicated to communicating about A17, near daily updates, answer questions etc.

I mean what else do people want? A commercial during the Superbowl advertising where they are with A17? Updates plastered on the sides of buses?

- - - Updated - - -

This is exactly what happens to any topics at Steam with an opposing thought or opinion - Especially Sylen - This is immediately what you say to everyone.
"YOURE TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING YOURE SAYING"

You've even tried the "You're wrong about what youre saying" to me in this very post itself. It's literally what you say to everyone.

Never seen mods act like that.
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Except in this case he's right. Kubikus went back and pulled data that included the period in which the forums went from basically no moderation to moderation. Also 1/2 the posts are identical posts by people who are asking when A17 comes out instead of posting in the sticky forum . Closing those posts means nothing more then posters on the 7dtd steam forum don't read sticky posts.

 
Jedo, you didn't respond to my question. Perhaps you missed it?You were quick to point out the flaws in Kubikus' 'research', whilst not speaking out against Sylen's 'research'. How's that? Given that they come with the same partially-flawed methodology. Might there be a bias?
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I did totally miss your post! I was swapping between phone and computer, and I just went to the last page, causing me not to see yours at the bottom of the previous page.

I'm guessing that you only really want an answer to the final question in that post since you rhetorically answer the first two. The problem with answering the final question is that the post which you quoted contains my answer to your question. For your peace of mind, though...

Sylen did slap-dash together some numbers to respond to you and show that it wasn't 50%, and it was a good enough response to your general feeling. I think that is perfectly acceptable for that level of discourse: Somebody complains and adds some made-up numbers to their feelings, so respond with some roughly sketched numbers to refute them. The level of accuracy doesn't need to be great, just level-headed in response to the exaggeration. When Kubikus claimed to be "scientific" and unscientifically approached his numbers, I called him out on that.

It's probably good to notice that I wasn't, and still am not, concerned with the results. I'm more concerned with people claiming a higher ground than they have.

 
I did totally miss your post! I was swapping between phone and computer, and I just went to the last page, causing me not to see yours at the bottom of the previous page.
I'm guessing that you only really want an answer to the final question in that post since you rhetorically answer the first two. The problem with answering the final question is that the post which you quoted contains my answer to your question. For your peace of mind, though...

Sylen did slap-dash together some numbers to respond to you and show that it wasn't 50%, and it was a good enough response to your general feeling. I think that is perfectly acceptable for that level of discourse: Somebody complains and adds some made-up numbers to their feelings, so respond with some roughly sketched numbers to refute them. The level of accuracy doesn't need to be great, just level-headed in response to the exaggeration. When Kubikus claimed to be "scientific" and unscientifically approached his numbers, I called him out on that.

It's probably good to notice that I wasn't, and still am not, concerned with the results. I'm more concerned with people claiming a higher ground than they have.
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Fair enough.

My 50%-number was just a feeling I had after looking at Steam 2 months ago. So they're always made up, and not calculated. Screenshots showed that such a feeling was warranted, it all depends on when such a forum is viewed.

I'm still of the opinion that both methodologies were flawed in the same way, and that both methodologies were used to counter an argument, so that both methods should deserve the same amount of out-calling. But agree to disagree.

Still; I think the moderation on the official forum is better.

 
I'm still of the opinion that both methodologies were flawed in the same way, and that both methodologies were used to counter an argument, so that both methods should deserve the same amount of out-calling. But agree to disagree.
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I suppose we will have to do that. I will say that if (to mix it up) Kubikus had responded with a meme to counter you, then Sylen responded with a meme and said that his was the more appropriate meme because of certain criteria, I would have called out Sylen for his reasoning.

And in all of this, I'm still not worried about TFP or 7dtd and their success going forward.

 
I suppose we will have to do that. I will say that if (to mix it up) Kubikus had responded with a meme to counter you, then Sylen responded with a meme and said that his was the more appropriate meme because of certain criteria, I would have called out Sylen for his reasoning.
And in all of this, I'm still not worried about TFP or 7dtd and their success going forward.
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Good to hear!

Well.. I can't say with a straight face that I'm not worried at all. They made a highly successful game, but the whole bubble, so-to-speak, surrounding the game has changed a lot over the past 2 years I think. And not for the good.

Just looking backwards.. I found this game whilst posted in Buenos Aires for my current company 4 years ago, spending hours each day after work playing it. Digging into the wiki to find what each recipe was, and how to assemble them in the crafting grid. I've played it quite a lot. Not so much as most people here (I play many games), but still the most of my Steam library.

And now I'm sitting here, discussing this with you. I've fired up the game once since A16.4 came out, and that was early December of last year. And now there's a good chance A17(e) won't come out before early December of this year. I guess MM and I have something in common when he said he hadn't played the game in a year :p

Well.. That was too emotional!

Boo TFP! They've clearly abandoned the game! Children zombies should be added! Underground bases are cheating!

 
Every time an update is delayed, especially with this one, the forums will naturally flood with complaint posts.

I think that it doesn't take a research to figure out that Steam forums are also different than these forums because, on average, people that hang out in the game's official forums which have more or less a standard, "more dedicated" perhaps, community, are less likely to complain (especially in a non-appropriate manner) than the more diverse crowd of the Steam forums. So it might not be fair to compare them. For this reason, I also believe that the Steam forums are a better sample than these forums in order to gauge the general audience's reactions to the game at a time.

Oh and underground bases will be dealt with... someday.

 
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My only annoyance was the repeated setting of possible releases. It had a noob feel to it.

But, I bet the shiny Duke I found on the floor of Al's Marina, that TFP will not mention a possible date again unless its accurate to within 30 days. :)

 
Fair enough. My 50%-number was just a feeling I had after looking at Steam 2 months ago. So they're always made up, and not calculated. Screenshots showed that such a feeling was warranted, it all depends on when such a forum is viewed.

I'm still of the opinion that both methodologies were flawed in the same way, and that both methodologies were used to counter an argument, so that both methods should deserve the same amount of out-calling. But agree to disagree.

Still; I think the moderation on the official forum is better.
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To be clear, we are the same moderators performing the same function on the official forum as we are on the Steam forum.

The difference being that people who come to the official forum tend to be a lot more mature. The steam forums are considerably more toxic than any official forum I have ever managed, and I've been doing this since about 1996. I blame this mostly on the ease of access any child playing a game has to the forums. (And partially on parents not raising children properly, which is leading to a swift decline in our society.)

 
To be clear, we are the same moderators performing the same function on the official forum as we are on the Steam forum.
The difference being that people who come to the official forum tend to be a lot more mature. The steam forums are considerably more toxic than any official forum I have ever managed, and I've been doing this since about 1996. I blame this mostly on the ease of access any child playing a game has to the forums. (And partially on parents not raising children properly, which is leading to a swift decline in our society.)
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Yeah I guess people are much more outspoken nowadays. That's not always a good thing I think.

However, I don't agree on parents not raising kids properly, which would decline society as a whole. Any generation over the past 100-200 years has rebelled to a certain degree towards their parent-generation (as far as I know). I'm only 30, so I don't have that much experience, but I've heard stories from my grandparents when there was no radio or telephone. I've heard stories from my parents when TV got introduced in Holland. Every time such technology got introduced, the older generation was generally afraid that the implementation of such technology would change the future generations for the worst.

Such a thing can be seen now as well, I think, with the newest generation being affected by social media and the like (easy forum access is related to this).

 
What's really funny though is that 98% of the time he is literally right. So you're not used to mods correcting you when your wrong. Boo Hoo.
It's refreshing having moderators like Roland, SylenThunder, and RedEagle who aren't afraid to shove reality right in your face.
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The other mods aren't the same. Literally the first thing from Sylen CONSTANTLY is "You're wrong about what you're saying".

And really, you're not going to change that statistic. It's observable literally all over the place here and at Steam as well.

You're just doing some brown-nosing. As a grown adult, I know bullies when I see one. His behavior is not common for moderators.

 
I'm still of the opinion that both methodologies were flawed in the same way, and that both methodologies were used to counter an argument, so that both methods should deserve the same amount of out-calling.
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My methodology was used to counter Sylent's. Because Sylent's lead to a portrayal where the moderation in 7dtd steam forums was just normal. Average. Which 4% is.
If my methodology was flawed, we could not tell if the percentage of locked threads in the 7dtd steam forum was exceptionally high, compared to other forums. But we can, because the raw data I collected speaks for itself. There is no doubt the percentage is exceptionally high. It is a proven fact, and I have proven it.

Except in this case he's right. Kubikus went back and pulled data that included the period in which the forums went from basically no moderation to moderation. Also 1/2 the posts are identical posts by people who are asking when A17 comes out instead of posting in the sticky forum . Closing those posts means nothing more then posters on the 7dtd steam forum don't read sticky posts.
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Sylent did not reply to me, I replied to him. Sylent replied to DaVegaNL:
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?88095-Hi-Im-really-worried-about-TFP-and-7d2d&p=854333&viewfull=1#post854333

And the number of threads locked in the 7dtd steam forum is exceptionally high. It's not wrong to "claim" that, it's just stating a fact. That there are reasons why threads are locked makes no difference to that fact.

Obscure?
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"Obscure" should actually be a less than precise term, but "hard to access" totally nails it.

This the official development forum and in the top section entitled News and Annoincements there is almost daily news from developers and I also give periodic reports. About a week ago I started copying all dev comments into its own thread stickied at the top of the News and Announcement forum.
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That thing you started "about a week" ago is really appreciated, btw. Good job, Roland, it's now a lot more convenient to find some usefull information.

I agree with you that they could improve their use of media and social networking sites and Steam, itself. You aren’t wrong that they largely ignore these avenues. They are just doing what they’ve done in the past to be as successful as they are. If the data comes back after A17 that proves their methodology is wrong or needs adjustment then I’m sure they will wake up to that fact.
The returning player numbers after A17 will determine it all. If they are weak you can bet that there will be changes but if the numbers rise to a new record and the reviews return to positive then they’ll likely stay the course that has worked for them.

They’ve used 7 Days to Die to successfully build a multi-million dollar business and they aren’t going to take consultation for their business practices from random internet dudes who primarily use 7 Days to Die as leisure time-wasting fun.
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The attitude you describe is clear, Roland, and it is that clear attitude why people are upset, why the recent steam reviews are mixed, why so many threads "have to be" locked on the steam forums. You tell us nothing new, in case you thought so. Your "brutal honesty" is appreaciatable, of course, but... Why? I don't understand the attitude behind that. I remember, for example, Joel choking up in a video, when he was talking about the "fans", and how they "mean the world to" him. Or when Richard "Rick" H. says they love all their players. And rightfully so, as it wasn't the few elite players in the the developer diary who turned the company into a multi-million dollar business. It was the ""normies"", who don't have the enthusiam to work for every crumb of information the company cares to drop.
 
To be clear, we are the same moderators performing the same function on the official forum as we are on the Steam forum.
The difference being that people who come to the official forum tend to be a lot more mature. The steam forums are considerably more toxic than any official forum I have ever managed, and I've been doing this since about 1996. I blame this mostly on the ease of access any child playing a game has to the forums. (And partially on parents not raising children properly, which is leading to a swift decline in our society.)
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Wow. You've been a moderator since 1996? I'm also an older person. That doesn't seem right. Your style of moderation is not my cup of tea. I've watched you ban people for nothing over at Steam. Literally nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

I've watched people at Steam get warning and bans for pointing out mistreatment to other users.

That's the lowest of the low.

 
To be clear, we are the same moderators performing the same function on the official forum as we are on the Steam forum.
The difference being that people who come to the official forum tend to be a lot more mature. The steam forums are considerably more toxic than any official forum I have ever managed, and I've been doing this since about 1996. I blame this mostly on the ease of access any child playing a game has to the forums. (And partially on parents not raising children properly, which is leading to a swift decline in our society.)
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But kids can access any forum on steam, so how come that they pile up exactly in the 7dtd forum.
 
But kids can access any forum on steam, so how come that they pile up exactly in the 7dtd forum.
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They pile up everywhere. It's just that they show inappropriate behavior when it comes to negative feedback. And these delays are reasons for negative feedback. And it's not "kids" that cause this - they could easily access this forum as well - it's what I said above.

 
If my methodology was flawed, we could not tell if the percentage of locked threads in the 7dtd steam forum was exceptionally high, compared to other forums. But we can, because the raw data I collected speaks for itself. There is no doubt the percentage is exceptionally high. It is a proven fact, and I have proven it.
And the number of threads locked in the 7dtd steam forum is exceptionally high. It's not wrong to "claim" that, it's just stating a fact.
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Ehnt! You don't have all of the raw data. If nothing else, this is a serious strike against your objectivity. I will remind the forum of that every time you repeat this lie.

 
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