SnowDog1942
Navezgane's Perv
Millenials.....
PC Hey Mooooom.... the Meatloaf..... we want it now!
- Thread starter Poojam
- Start date
AlyssaFaden
Refugee
Well I'm okay with it! So much so, I'm throwing myself off a tall building right now in agreement! *breaks leg*
RestInPieces
Refugee
Yes, I remember that death penalty thread... Some people were saying that their wounded pride after dying was enough of a penalty in A16
Many were surely knee-jerk reactions since people had gotten used to no consequences.I do think that the people frustrated by a harsher death penalty are the majority. But I know, that some/several/many(?) of them, are initially frustrated taking it at face value, but in the long-term appreciate it, indirectly. Works much like loot abundance, the more there is, the less exciting the find. It's like a rule of the brain, same, more or less, for everyone.
Anyway, I don't like asking for the 999th option, but since TFP go for 100% player controlled experience and I think that enough people will enjoy it, an option for would be great. And because some people do want to play the game just to relax, farm and build at their leisure, with no concerns at all and without checking at 999 options, I think a sandbox-friendly option pack/mode would represent preferences well and achieve some measure of "controlled experience" for each mode. (Again, be careful with the naming if you go for it
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Roland
Community Moderator
Heh...the very saving grace of high modability of this game is also the downfall of any system that might become appreciated over the long term. Too many people can simply mod it out before giving it the time. Some don't even play with it once. After reading the patch notes they make the changes before even trying it once...Yes, I remember that death penalty thread... Some people were saying that their wounded pride after dying was enough of a penalty in A16
I do think that the people frustrated by a harsher death penalty are the majority. But I know, that some/several/many(?) of them, are initially frustrated taking it at face value, but in the long-term appreciate it, indirectly. Works much like loot abundance, the more there is, the less exciting the find. It's like a rule of the brain, same, more or less, for everyone.
For sure!Anyway, I don't like asking for the 999th option, but since TFP go for 100% player controlled experience and I think that enough people will enjoy it, an option for would be great. And because some people do want to play the game just to relax, farm and build at their leisure, with no concerns at all and without checking at 999 options, I think a sandbox-friendly option pack/mode would represent preferences well and achieve some measure of "controlled experience" for each mode. (Again, be careful with the naming if you go for it
I am really hoping that TFP is able to come up with a resonable DP at some point. The one we have now is just not enough to make 'surviving' worth doing. I doubt it will happen - most players seem to want something that has almost no impact.Heh...the very saving grace of high modability of this game is also the downfall of any system that might become appreciated over the long term. Too many people can simply mod it out before giving it the time. Some don't even play with it once. After reading the patch notes they make the changes before even trying it once...
For sure!
This really has forced me to play DID. Every game I have started where I do not play DID gets boring almost instantly as there is no real point in trying not to die. That makes any 'challenge' worthless. It quickly leads to a why bother feeling.
DID, on the other hand, is EXTREMELY frustrating. I mean unreasonably so. I have stopped playing several times because it can be so. It is still the only way I can make the game experience with 7 Days to Die enjoyable but I think there is a much better middle ground in finding a death that really has an impact.
Jackelmyer
Refugee
I think people are better off looking to other game implementations of death penalties over the years. I know we all want believe most people are just like us, especially when we want something a certain way. However death penalties, in game, is nothing new, and isn't really a wheel to be reinvented.
Generally speaking, most games death penalties are annoyances at best.
Usually, the worse death penalty is you drop your stuff and it's gone for good. Regardless whatever you have stocked up on at your base, you could lose something you've been after a long while.
Most games that implement a heavy and grueling death penalty are niche games or games that end up reverting and nerfing the death penalty.
Most games that do want a harsh death penalty, incorporate it into higher difficulty settings.
Generally, people want to have fun in a leisurely way. Some hardcore and/or long term players want to have something brutal to play with.
Which is why, to sell to the masses, default game modes aren't the most challenging. Which... Is why there's higher difficulty settings.
Just how I see it anyway.
Generally speaking, most games death penalties are annoyances at best.
Usually, the worse death penalty is you drop your stuff and it's gone for good. Regardless whatever you have stocked up on at your base, you could lose something you've been after a long while.
Most games that implement a heavy and grueling death penalty are niche games or games that end up reverting and nerfing the death penalty.
Most games that do want a harsh death penalty, incorporate it into higher difficulty settings.
Generally, people want to have fun in a leisurely way. Some hardcore and/or long term players want to have something brutal to play with.
Which is why, to sell to the masses, default game modes aren't the most challenging. Which... Is why there's higher difficulty settings.
Just how I see it anyway.
RestInPieces
Refugee
Being inspired by other DP implementations is fine - but they can't just copy paste stuff from other games and hope they fit. Inv dropping as a penalty is popular for example, but I don't think it really fits into this game.
I think it's wrong to assume that there are "casual vs hardcore" players - it's a very one-dimensional way of thinking. There are countless examples of companies which were too fixed on selling their product to the "lowest common denominator" and forgot to create an actually engaging game. And then there are designers like Miyazaki, for example, that made a series with very punishing mechanics "mainstream" - after Sony's rejection which came from nothing more than, a glorified accountant, who also thought that way.
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Jackelmyer
Refugee
Permanently lose that level 6 auger. Permanently lose that tool and dye kit. Permanently lose that heavily modded gun. If that doesn't hurt, welp, maybe play dead is dead.
The glorified accountant was putting in true loot boxes. That's an entirely different situation.
Copy and Pasting content is about 95% of game content these days. You can't really find many new game mechanics and features being released today that haven't been done already. How you put them together is the most unique aspect most game developers can hope for. How content is put together, how it's used by players, and what it looks like. Otherwise... It's been done. So learn from others mistakes.
Not really sure what your point about casual vs hardcore is so... :shrug:
And yep. Lots of developers built for the Masses, though they're hardly the lowest common denominator. The masses are the meat and potatoes as to how many copies a game is sold.
The top steam games are FPS games. 7 Days is never going to appeal to the bulk of FPS players. 7 Days is too "Earn your way" as opposed to "Give me all the things so I can brawl right this second." for those player bases.
Gary's Mod and Minecraft are literally more in line with the player base for 7 Days To Die. If that's not true, this game seriously needs to dump voxels, a fully destroyable world, and start focusing on either story, PVP, or both.
And if that's true, putting in harsh death penalties is a terrible idea for the default game play.
Again, harsh death penalties are fine... At higher difficulty settings. Keeping it largely annoyance at it's worst for the default difficulty and completely ignorable at the easiest difficulty is probably a better game/business strategy.
RestInPieces
Refugee
I guess you didn't see my reply when you said the same thing earlier in this thread?
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111298-Hey-Mooooom-the-Meatloaf-we-want-it-now!&p=954284&viewfull=1#post954284
Loot boxes...? Irrelevant. I am referring to how Yoshida rejected Demon Souls because, beyond the technical problems which he didn't pay much attention to in the end, he essentially found it too punishing/hard/slow paced.
I wasn't talking about making new mechanics or anything, but about copy/pasting popular characteristics from other "successful" games with no regard whether they fit into what you have.
That it's rather simplistic and naive to exclusively "divide" people into those categories.
Sigh... lowest common denominator. "Built for the masses" pretty much means "built for as many people as possible". And for that to happen, the range of target audience widens - both the "min" and the "max" change, hence the "lower common denominator".
It's mostly that the games you are talking about are pvp-centered games, battle royales, arenas etc, which is more or less what makes them popular.
That's a just a pretty random and convenient example of two sandbox games you have played/liked. I could also say that "7DTD is more in line with project zomboid and the forest", so perma-death is a great idea for it. Would be silly though.
7DTD is just its own game - if you want to argue that DP is a terrible idea for it, don't start with "the other game I liked did that", use arguments relevant to the game itself and why that would/wouldn't be a good fit.
Yes that's what we were saying, since TFP are going for a fully controlled player experience. Although difficulty settings as they currently are in the game, shouldn't be tied with a DP. It should be a separate option.
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Jackelmyer
Refugee
My references to Gary's Mod and Minecraft are actually based on player bases. Not on my preference. I've never actually played Gary's Mod. Just watched my son play a bit. And Minecraft is... Meh. It's alright. Haven't played in years though.
7D2D is absolutely it's own game. However paying attention to what makes games great and not so great is a worthy time investment.
Nope. Wasn't thinking about your post in another thread. Barely read it this time too. So still. :shrug:
Didn't say that the only comparison is casual vs hardcore. Though those are two substantial groups often used in dialog around player bases. Don't know what to tell ya.
I'd hardly call dropping items a thoughtless and non-fitting death penalty. Especially in a rather loot centric game.
7D2D is absolutely it's own game. However paying attention to what makes games great and not so great is a worthy time investment.
Nope. Wasn't thinking about your post in another thread. Barely read it this time too. So still. :shrug:
Didn't say that the only comparison is casual vs hardcore. Though those are two substantial groups often used in dialog around player bases. Don't know what to tell ya.
I'd hardly call dropping items a thoughtless and non-fitting death penalty. Especially in a rather loot centric game.
RestInPieces
Refugee
Well, if you had read my reply you would see why I did - unless you only care about repeating the same thing without discussing about it?
Jackelmyer
Refugee
The conversation got repetitive generally. Seemed like a good place to zone out.
I will replace "gamers" with "customers" and replace "developers" with "Waffle House cooks" and try your sentence.
Ahh, customers telling their Waffle House cooks how to cook their eggs. How many grill ops have facepalmed *themselves to death because of this?
I get what you're trying to say, but it isn't the best analogy in my opinion. I do not know how to create a video game. This is true. But I am also the one that is going to pay someone else to do so. Well, that is not true actually; I will purchase a game which pays the game developers after they create a game.
But I've done alpha testing before. I've done beta testing. Generally, when doing it for a triple a game such as WoW, ESO, SWTOR, etc. you can actually see that the game developers are having you play their game early access just to hear what you have to say. SWTOR changed drastically between testing and launch, and I am pleased to say that I made several suggestions that I saw followed. Not to claim that I was the only one to make suggestions, but you see where I am coming from I hope, as I made the effort to see your side.
Sell me a game. A finished game. Work out the bugs yourself and pay people to test the game. Then I will buy what is on the shelf according to my desires. But if you want me to test your game for you for free.....well, maybe you should listen to our suggestions. After all, the customers are paying the bills.