pApA^LeGBa
Well-known member
Why? If you look how long the field is in RL and how long it takes you to sprint in game, the ratio seems pretty good. It´s a pretty realistic time, even too slow.
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- Thread starter Roland
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Crater Creator
Community Moderator
I got you, fam!
I tested on an unmodified build of Alpha 16.4b8 (game cache freshly verified). I started a new game (i.e. character had no skills) on Navezgane. I teleported to coordinates (1780 N, 600 W) and ran east on flat ground with no obstacles, starting from 100 stamina and stopping at 0 stamina. I ended at coordinates (1778 N 210 W).
Distance: 390 meters
Time: 64.50 seconds
Speed: 6.05 meters / second
Tell Madmole this wannabe 7DtD developer says hello.
From the videos and previous statements A17 "walking" speed is faster then A16 but it is defiantly not even close to A16 running speed.
Roland:
Its also not about freaking out but finally fixing a issue that has plagued 7D2D gameplay, the unbalanced zombie running / zombie dogs speed/stamina. Maybe other disagree with my opinion but A16 was the Alpha i played almost not. Running Zombies in building simply freaked me out ( so fast on you, plop, your dead ). And the fact that disabling the game setting for no Running Zombie, does not remove the new game-stage running Zombies.
So any changes to Running / Sprinting frankly make random running Zombies and Zombie dogs worse.
From the game-play videos and how the current published A17 sprint seems to work, if you encounter a zombie dog:
- Sprint
- Open the gap
- Run out of stamina
- Turn
- Try to acquire your target ( dog closing distant fast )
- Try to shoot ( we all know how much fun it is trying to hit/kill running dogs )
- Hit / Miss
- Turn
- Try to run again
- and ... you are out of stamina fast because stamina does not regenerate ultra fast.
- Turn
- Try to acquire your target ( dog closing distant fast )
- /Dog food.
Now add to this mess, that backward running and shooting is not possible anymore. So the same will also be a issue for dealing with Random running Zombie ( that increase as your game stage progresses ).
I respect the 7D2D developers plenty but at some point you need to ask the people if they agree with some of the changes instead of forcing them upon players. I personally HATE the random running zombies. You do good, your game stage goes up and you get more random runners.
The game actually rewards you for dying a lot because it keeps the game stage down and so the runners. If you have a option to disable day runners, then add a option to disable all runners ( inc zombie feral etc ).
I am honest about having games where i got sleeping runners on day 4 or 5, inside buildings and it angered me a lot. No warning, they are instant on you before you hear something. It feels like your being punished for not dying. I will have rather seen different enemies then simply rehashed enemies with glowing eyes and running abilities. Enemies act different, more animal enemies ( humans seem to outnumber animals way too much )...
The reason why i originally buy 7D2D was because i wanted a Zombie game. The Wright was a acceptable late stage enemy that was able to run, because by that time, you also have the gear to deal with it. Then came the footballer. Sure, avoid the football field. Acceptable. Dogs, hateful near you spawning *****. In the normal world, sure but not when the game deliberately spawns then every week on the 5th day right near you. You end up playing different that day because you know the game will spawn dogs near you.
Then came A16 random / sleeper running Ferals where you do not know when any will spawn, it can be in a group, in a sleeper spot, in a building, ... and they can spawn very early in the game. And i HATED it. It felt the same like cheap Dog spawns near you.
Now the potential of even more restricted game-play with the changes to the sprint system, simply makes runners and dogs even more overpowered. Its not just about panicking or freaking out Roland, its about AGAIN seeing the game make changes that a subset of the player will dislike because those changes interact with other parts of the game.
This is why i write this. I know that the devs will be with there heads in the code and because they constantly test code, dying is no big issue, they do not play long games so the attachment to a game / character is not available. I write code every day, i know how easy it is to lose focus only to discover clients do things different or have different feelings about features.
So please for the love of the gods, if TFP change the running system, do something about runners. Give people the option to disable them without resorting to mods!
Because from my experience with A16, A17 will be a even less fun for long term playing for people like me. People that want a ZOMBIE game where you can build, defend and explore on your terms, not some MMORPG / Horror game with dungeons, running zombies for cheap kills, ... 7D2D is moving away from the Romero zombies / the walking dead game that i want so fast, its not even funny.
Roland
Moderator
The developers are not going to be able to please everyone. They will create the game they want and if it turns out to not be fun for long term playing for some people they will either move on or mod it...like every other game in existence.
Thanks for spelling out your preferences. It's good to know what people want. At the end of the day the developers will make a decision and it will either align with your desires or it won't and then you will have to decide what to do. Most likely, if you never want to experience any zombies that can run you will need to play with a mod that removes the running from ferals. It is doubtful that the vanilla game will go as far as you are desiring because the devs want running feral zombies.
Joel is balancing the player speed vs zombie and dog running speeds to make sure it isn't impossible to survive nor is it automatically guaranteed that you will escape. It needs to be thrilling and risky and fear inducing but also doable.
Thanks for spelling out your preferences. It's good to know what people want. At the end of the day the developers will make a decision and it will either align with your desires or it won't and then you will have to decide what to do. Most likely, if you never want to experience any zombies that can run you will need to play with a mod that removes the running from ferals. It is doubtful that the vanilla game will go as far as you are desiring because the devs want running feral zombies.
Joel is balancing the player speed vs zombie and dog running speeds to make sure it isn't impossible to survive nor is it automatically guaranteed that you will escape. It needs to be thrilling and risky and fear inducing but also doable.
RestInPieces
New member
Just my 2 cents...
Looking at them separately, I think the changes to the running system are fine and seem more on the immersive side.
That said... I completely agree with the points you made in your post and I can't stress them enough. I wish they would just get rid of those god damn frame-skipping zombie dogs and zombie animals or at least make them scarce. Normal zombies have taken the backseat.
Like guppy very accurately once said and in my opinion, the special zombies seem like they have come out of Scooby-Doo. Which sucks. Progression curve is short and advanced materials are over the top, yet instead of tuning them down, adding more survival elements or using some random combat behavior that could even make normal zombies a formidable threat, the devs seem to think that adding more superzombie bulletsponge gimmicks is the solution.
I was always in favor of some theme-friendly special ability zombies, but I used to jest when hornets were introduced and say "let's not have zombies shooting lasers out of their eyes". At this point I wouldn't be surprised if that happened.
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LowfDog
New member
I think what concerns some players is that the people who appear making the decisions on game balance also don't appear to be particularly good at the game.
It makes zero sense to be shooting arrows at zombies who are literally (note correct usage of the word) five feet away, yet this is the game play we see in videos time and time again.
In A16, my play group lets screamers do their thing, because the chaos is fun and challenging, although the ridiculous zombies spazzing out and running in circles makes melee nigh impossible. In those cases your options are a) time it perfectly on intercept while the zed is still rushing you (doable with enough practice), b) switch to shotgun for a point blank decapitation, c) have a friend intercept it laterally and take it out, or d) have a sniper take out the offending runner from a distance.
We could easily take out the screamers before they ever get a chance to yell, but that wouldn't be as fun. Unfortunately, if zombies have no loot and can't be harvested for their fat, bones, and raw meat, there's absolutely no incentive to kill them, no reason to challenge ourselves by pushing the limits of gameplay, and the result is less fun had by all.
The way current A17 previews look, melee is getting nerfed to the point where ranged fights will be the only feasible way to fight and underground facilities will only encourage zombies to swiss cheese the terrain, which is incidentally the reason why downward attacks got taken out in the first place. Keep in mind my group makes underground facilities to do large scale mining and for fun public works projects like garages, not because we're hiding from zombies. Horde nights are spent above ground, because that's where the fun is.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to A17 and I'm going to hope for the best. But I do worry that people who don't know how to design bases are going to force the gameplay in a direction that's less fun. Recently, we've switched from converting POIs to building our bases from scratch, which is good because-- if the POI resets become a reality, it won't be feasible to convert one into a base.
Which is sad, because there's a certain amount of roleplay fun from converting an old house or a Shamway into a medieval fortress. Again, this is another example of design forcing a certain style of play, which is never good in a game whose main charm is how open-ended it is.
Roland
Moderator
Hey Lowf...you haven't been around much lately and we are at the point in the space time continuum that you time traveled to long ago. So let me give you some comfort to take back with you to those poor slobs of a few years ago who are waiting for your report...
Now start getting ready to start that thread you will have has had written!
People? You've seen gameplay video from two people: Madmole and myself. Madmole was rusty but he knows how to play and gets back up to speed once he starts playing a lot. I'm awesome, of course, but don't make any decisions. Now the people you don't see videos from are the team of internal testers and the other developers who are all adept at the game and who all give input and feedback about gameplay and balance. The game is in good hands.
Sorry but I'm going to have to correct you on the literally usage. The zombies could be literally five feet away but they are most probably literally going to be 2 or 3 meters away because each block in the world is a meter instead of a foot. I also want to say that it makes the most sense to shoot zombies from whatever distance allows you to hit them with a hastily fashioned wood and grass fiber bow with stone headed arrows. I shoot zombies up close and from far away. I like up close because then I can pull the arrow out of the zombie's head and shoot him again with the same arrow. That never gets old. Now please don't go back and tell us about sticky and retrievable arrows because it is supposed to be a secret until just a couple of months ago.
I can tell you that your abc and d of having fun will be viable in A17 and even better than A16 because of the new pathing. As for loot, I'm glad I was able to catch you before taking your time machine back to the past because that is just a horrible misunderstanding. I have been assured that there will be zombie loot. It just won't be removed from zombie body containers like before. Whew....imagine if you had gone back to 2015 and said that the zombies of the future would have no loot? They might have burned you as a witch or something.
I honestly believe that melee is better in A17 than ever before. It is not nerfed at all. There is a new power attack with perks that can boost it to Godlike levels of power. It is still easy to avoid getting hit when smacking a zed around but more risk that they might get one off on you. I really like the way melee feels now even on Day 1 and after you've leveled up some perks in that area you will be a zombie destroying machine. As for swiss cheese....as long as you don't stay underground when you can be detected they won't dig to get you. Since you find it fun to come up topside to handle zombies there should be no problems. Tell them that in 2015 with a big smile--> "No Problems!"
I know you are. I can still remember the excitement in your post when you wooshed back to us from the future to tell us all about A17. Keep that excitement alive because it is justified. Prime has assured us that his goal is to prevent quests from resetting anyone's POI converted base. I'm not sure how he's going to do it but this IS the future after all.
Now start getting ready to start that thread you will have has had written!
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This is off-topic but its how i feel about 7D2D more and more. It feels like your forced into a specific game style.
For me 7D2D was always about building your own fortress, surviving the zombie and exploring for resources. As the danger increased, you put more time into getting better defenses, slowly got up to more easy ways to collect resources etc. I loved being self sufficient but with the focus on dungeons for the loot, you know where this is going.
The current move seems to be heavily flavored by MMORPG style gameplay. A focus on Dungeons, exploring to get the good "loot", get your Crystal of Might so you can upgrade your pickaxe. Weapon attachments make sense (silencer, scopem ...), pickaxe attachments are ridiculous idea. Its a almost exact rip from MMORPG games that use upgrades and the next big thing to keep things interesting.
Where as i rather see 7D2D adding actual content. More complex crafting like some of the mods do ( but mods can only do so much because they run into issues with the 7D2D engine ), more content, interesting goals ( colony development ), some dungeon houses fine but not having every house reworked into a dungeon house, no magic bullet sponge boss zombies ( if you do that, then make a real separate mutated zombie ), no federal rehash zombies...
Now we have Feral, Boss and Radiated zombies, that are simply rehashed assets like you have in MMORPG games where have a gray monster, a purple monster, a glowing monster... with more HP and damage. So my comparison that 7D2D is more and more like a MMORPG is not that far off. Mods even use more assets like Spiders, Gorillas, etc ...
The whole argument from the devs in the past that they only want local animals that exitst in that part of the US, does not hold a lot of meaning when we get Feral, Boss and Radiated zombies instead. I am fairly sure that we are not going to see spitting cops in a Zombie apocalypse :smile-new:
>Recently, we've switched from converting POIs to building our bases from scratch, which is good because-- if the POI resets become a reality, it won't be feasible to convert one into a base.
There are so many issues that it sometimes hurt. Sleeping bag no sleeper spawn ranges do not encompass a lot of POIs forcing people into smaller building. The reset issue as you stated. The clear a sleeper bug that has been in A16 for 14 months ( and still in A17 it seems ), having then respawn when you so close to a POI or even inside it *sigh*.
Try being in a POI and having several dogs spawn on you inside the POI. :crushed:
Those are bugs that are not luxury but play test bugs and i feel the devs do not really play test the game beyond testing the new features. And always wait for the community to complain to find the bugs. Or they simply even dismisses them as not a bug because they can not be bothered to actually fix a issue ( respawn zombies ).
You can expect that for a game just in beta but not for 7D2D that has been now, how many years out? Sorry no ...
Um NO MATTER what they change or how the change a number this game is not going to be realistic because in real world that I live in zombies are not trying to eat me. This is a game saying something should be a certain way is silly. Only thing that should be asked is if the game still fun this way. Period.
Roland
Moderator
I think you are worrying over nothing in this regard. You can still play 7 Days to Die in A17 the way you described. Dungeon houses are really just houses with more clutter and blind corners. They are not as linear as the videos make them seem. I like them way better than the empty shells we had and there are still plenty of those. You may end up not enjoying those POI's, however.
colony development is a future goal but won't be in A17. There is a good mix of plain POIs and dungeon POIs. The videos never show the plain ones because they aren't new and shiny. Your criticism of re-used assets for feral and radiated is fair.
I am fairly sure we are not going to see a zombie apocalypse...
faatal posted that he fixed the clearing the sleepers issue and the cop zombie explosion issue.
The sleeping bag issue has also been fixed for A17 as far as I know
The team absolutely does use the community to find bugs. There is a lot that thousands of people can find that a small team cannot.
