PC Hardcore

[MechanicalLens]

Right. Oblivion had some quests that were vague and you ended up using a wiki to find the marker. The marker was 2d on a map, not 3D with a floating sprite like used for Skyrim. It was much improved and I see why they did it as a designer and player. Some people enjoy complicated vague, find the needle in the haystack. It works for detective games where there isn't impeding doom or player fatigue after fighting through 6 stories of an apartment building to reach said location to deal with. But its just good design that means most people will get it and understand it, and thus enjoy it. Is it dumbed down? You could say that, but I say ignorance is bliss, my gaming time is mostly to enjoy myself in an RPG, its not pvp or to stroke my ego that I figured something out. That isn't our game, you have a horde coming, it is time sensitive and I can't count how many times I tried some tier 5 quest and couldn't find the satchel after I was already 2 hours into it, killed everyone and its 'somewhere'. At that point you just want to go home and get your reward not scour 1 of 500 blocks that are 2500 hp each.

I forgot her name. She is an outsourced hired professional that is all I know. I think she did a great job.

Uh-uh-uh. Waving finger I suggest the term "streamlined" be a more appropriate term than "dumbed down", or at least in my opinion. For the hardcore enthusiasts, there's always games like Dark Souls and Demon Souls, if such games suit their fancy.

Spot on. I don't think any type of player, regardless of their "requirements", would claim that searching for a hidden satchel for hours upon hours on end (and not necessarily in-game hours either) would be a worthy investment of one's time. This is not to mention that not everyone has all the time in the world to sit down and play games, and those that do probably need to get their lives checked over, but that's neither here nor there.
 

For me at least, the immersive experience comes from actually playing the game and working my way through the grass or the brickwork, and not the insurmountably tiny details such as, "why is there a magical satchel icon spinning on my compass?" If such players have a problem with that, then I'd imagine they have an issue with the compass and the toolbelt as well. If such is the case, they can always press F7.

EDIT: I was being unreasonable here and addressing a group of people that don't exist here on the forum to my knowledge. Apologies.

Also, I'm quite intrigued by the other quest types you've just proposed. I'm excited to see where this goes.

 

[Gazz]

I don't think any type of player, regardless of their "requirements", would claim that searching for a hidden satchel for hours upon hours on end (and not necessarily in-game hours either) would be a worthy investment of one's time. This is not to mention that not everyone has all the time in the world to sit down and play games, and those that do probably need to get their lives checked over, but that's neither here nor there.

And just to point out:

The hardcore enthusiasts CAN disable or alter this guidance selectively. (just an XML mod)

Keep it on for your backpack but disable it for quest satchels? Or require that you have to be closer to a quest satchel before it shows up? Sure, whatever...

 

[MechanicalLens]

And just to point out:

The hardcore enthusiasts CAN disable or alter this guidance selectively. (just an XML mod)

Keep it on for your backpack but disable it for quest satchels? Or require that you have to be closer to a quest satchel before it shows up? Sure, whatever...

I don't understand the hostility here. If I misworded something or said something that was not meant to be spoken of, then I do apologize for that. Nonetheless, to make my position clear, I have a certain "detest" for those who call themselves "hardcore". What am I? A player, nothing more; one of millions in fact. Those who call themselves "hardcore" are simply caught up in their own delusions, believing as if they deserve an extensive form of privilege. Little ways of thinking within the gaming community are as foolish as that one.

Influencers can obviously excuse themselves from this.

 

[Roland]

I don't understand the hostility here.

What hostility....?  I think you took it wrong. He seemed to be talking “in general” and not calling you out personally as a hardcore player. I don’t even think he meant the term “hardcore” pejoratively. 

 

[MechanicalLens]

What hostility....?  I think you took it wrong. He seemed to be talking “in general” and not calling you out personally as a hardcore player. I don’t even think he meant the term “hardcore” pejoratively. 

I'll reread it again in the morning.

Also, I am not a "hardcore player"; I may have thousands of hours under my belt, but I do not identify as such.

Regardless, my opinion on "hardcore players" stands.

 

[Jost Amman]

I'll reread it again in the morning.

Also, I am not a "hardcore player"; I may have thousands of hours under my belt, but I do not identify as such.

Regardless, my opinion on "hardcore players" stands.

I agree, actually I think "hardcore players" are the worst bunch, they often try to impose their opinions over others in a passive-aggressive way and write bad reviews on a game they have played for hundereds if not THOUSANDS of hours! *SMH*

That's also why I like how TFP handle the development of their game: they won't allow any "strong" minority to influence their own vision.

That's however what's happening in the game industry nowdays (Subnautica anyone?), devs compromising their creativity because they're afraid of possible bad PR.

Back to A19: so, anyone know how many "Need To Fix" bugs are left?

 

[meganoth]

And just to point out:

The hardcore enthusiasts CAN disable or alter this guidance selectively. (just an XML mod)

Keep it on for your backpack but disable it for quest satchels? Or require that you have to be closer to a quest satchel before it shows up? Sure, whatever...

The suggestion was to have a hint in text form (as in "somewhere in the kitchen"). Way more immersive, not much more difficult, search space would be one room instead of a 5x5x3(?) block space, with a small potential to go to the wrong room.

Without a hint at all even "hardcore enthusiasts" would loose their enthusiasm.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Those who call themselves "hardcore" are simply caught up in their own delusions, believing as if they deserve an extensive form of privilege. Little ways of thinking within the gaming community are as foolish as that one.

 

Man I have been trying to stay out of this thread but this statement is pretty foolish. By casting away players who wish to have a more hardcore experience as a "privilege" is just as silly as casuals being labelled as "care bears". 

You cant champion for your style of play and look down on others. It is incredibly elitist. Pimps do their best. I hate the icons. Hate them. We didn't have them for 18 alphas. We dont need them now. But we have a way to disable them if we like which is good enough. Gazz offered a solution. He certainly was not being short with you over it.

If my opinion that those icons arent needed is considered privileged then surely your suggestion that they are a great addition is just as privileged no? I love the double standard on this. Like hardcore? You're the devil all of a sudden. Surely even care bear players can negatively influence development and destroy a good game just as much as a hardcore player could.

 

[MechanicalLens]

Man I have been trying to stay out of this thread but this statement is pretty foolish. By casting away players who wish to have a more hardcore experience as a "privilege" is just as silly as casuals being labelled as "care bears". 

You cant champion for your style of play and look down on others. It is incredibly elitist. Pimps do their best. I hate the icons. Hate them. We didn't have them for 18 alphas. We dont need them now. But we have a way to disable them if we like which is good enough. Gazz offered a solution. He certainly was not being short with you over it.

If my opinion that those icons arent needed is considered privileged then surely your suggestion that they are a great addition is just as privileged no? I love the double Like hardcore? Youre the devil all of a sudden. Surely even care bear players can negatively influence development and destroy a good game just as much as a hardcore player could.

My definition of "hardcore players" (and I mean "hardcore" as a derogatory term here) - egotistical people who go around championing that they are "true fans" and that they despise "filthy casuals", meanwhile claiming they deserve free stuff only because "they got it first" or "they play more than others". You know, the stereotypical type.

Anybody else who is much more reasonable than that are in my okay books. Most, if not all, people here are such.

Perhaps I should have been more clear about that from the start. Apologies about that.  I am still not fully understanding the meaning behind Gazz's message.

Also, not the devil. Only human.

Also, yes I am an "elitist" to a degree, but not to the extent that you paint me as. I believe that pecking orders exist and people should know their place. Nothing more. (You could say that I am simply an advocacy for order, instead of "elitist".)

(For example, a child's word should never be treated with as much weight as the word of an adult, and an adult's word shouldn't be treated with as high as value as the word of an elder. I believe in societies and communities built on a system of respect and tolerance; hardly anything "devilish" about that.)

But now, back to A19 talk.

 

[Operator_Death]

Man I have been trying to stay out of this thread but this statement is pretty foolish. By casting away players who wish to have a more hardcore experience as a "privilege" is just as silly as casuals being labelled as "care bears". 

You cant champion for your style of play and look down on others. It is incredibly elitist. Pimps do their best. I hate the icons. Hate them. We didn't have them for 18 alphas. We dont need them now. But we have a way to disable them if we like which is good enough. Gazz offered a solution. He certainly was not being short with you over it.

If my opinion that those icons arent needed is considered privileged then surely your suggestion that they are a great addition is just as privileged no? I love the double standard on this. Like hardcore? You're the devil all of a sudden. Surely even care bear players can negatively influence development and destroy a good game just as much as a hardcore player could.

Not to get to involved in this. When I want a Hardcore experience I turn the setting to a harder style of play. If I want breezy and light I play default. If I want insane I use the dirty word we don't mention here in this thread. Mostly YOURs @JaxTeller718 js. We as player of 7dtd HAVE options supported by the developer of the game. My 2 cents is that you can CHOOSE to make the game as hard or easy as YOU and YOUR style want it to be. But thats me

 

[Aldranon]

The Handbook of Digital Games: *A book I recommend for any developer who wants a better understanding of their player base and what tends to motivate them.

It also shed a lot of light on what self-identified Hardcore players vs Casual players were.

Surprisingly, Myers-Briggs tests run on both groups found the "Hardcore" player to be more introverted and yet more imaginative, but the play styles were similar!

Knowing the truth is fun, right?

 

[MechanicalLens]

Good news that 'parts' will be more common in A19.

Not sure how/if the UI would handle it, but is there any way that we could choose to craft _lower_ Tier items?

Like when you buy high enough Int that you unlock Augers/Chainsaws, but you can only craft the highest Tier, because you're highly spec'd.

Both recent playthroughs I haven't had enough parts to craft an Auger when it got unlocked. I had a few Motor Tool Parts, just not enough for the high Tier.

Just my .02 cents but having an option to 'down-craft' might actually be more of a conundrum than current single option.

Example: this playthrough I was really jonesing for that auger. Think I had 9 parts but needed 12(?). Finally looted a green chainsaw. No-brainer, scrap it & make an auger.

If the option had existed to craft a lower tier, I likely would have done so, then would have regretted it upon looting that green chainsaw... out:

Would also add a wee bit of 'non-critical' complexity. Say you have 18 Steel Tool Parts & have spec'd to make blues; which take 15 parts(?).

Some might decide to down-craft two greens at 9 parts each(?) instead of the one blue, since one of those greens might have high enough stats to be 'better'.

I believe Games4Kickz also asked for this, I think 7 months ago?

The Handbook of Digital Games: *A book I recommend for any developer who wants a better understanding of their player base and what tends to motivate them.

It also shed a lot of light on what self-identified Hardcore players vs Casual players were.

Surprisingly, Myers-Briggs tests run on both groups found the "Hardcore" player to be more introverted and yet more imaginative, but the play styles were similar!

Knowing the truth is fun, right?

My opinion is that it doesn't matter if you have 5000 hours in a game or 5 minutes, the only real "hardcore" players are influencers. (ie streamers, YouTubers, etc.) In terms of importance, business wise and rep wise, it goes Developers > Influencers > Players. I'm not against hardcore fans, just the stereotypical egotistical hardcore player, none of which I'm sure exist here. Without devs, there would be no game. Without influencers, there would be much more limited advertisement and hype-build for said game. Without the playerbase, there would be no game to succeed (or fail). I'm only against people who put themselves on an imaginary pedastal above other players, believing themselves to be "superior"; again, I'm sure none of which exist here. Hardcore fans are fine, I like to think of myself as a "hardcore fan", but in terms of importance, I know my place: I'm just a random player. Just my thoughts to wrap this up.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Not to get to involved in this. When I want a Hardcore experience I turn the setting to a harder style of play. If I want breezy and light I play default. If I want insane I use the dirty word we don't mention here in this thread. Mostly YOURs @JaxTeller718 js. We as player of 7dtd HAVE options supported by the developer of the game. My 2 cents is that you can CHOOSE to make the game as hard or easy as YOU and YOUR style want it to be. But thats me

I feel the exact same way. Id never force anyone to us the dirty word, I know my options and what they are. I see such a pushback though for people who suggest things to be a bit more difficult. Scan these forums and they are chock full of requests and suggestions for things to make play easier. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. We all are allowed to voice our opinions. And I am thankful for that.

But you get these comments whenever someone even hints they want something to be tuned up a bit. Maybe they are the voices who shout the loudest but it almost feels dirty when you dont like a change lie the quest icons or if you want to suggest zombies being more difficult or if you LIKED food poisoning. At least certainly way more comments from those who favor changes that move away from survival more so than those who want survival to mean something.

I stopped participating here for two very good reasons. 1 was the fact we keep being reminded how small we are and how little we really mean to the overall success of 7 days so why bother and 2 anytime I see discussions asking for more difficult survival we get posts from people who feel like they are being attacked because of our suggestions, like we are infringing on their right to enjoy the game when that is not what  hardcore players are trying to do.

Bring on more settings for harder play. Keep default where it is because I think its perfect for beginners. But we need a 7 or 8 setting on difficulty for those of us who prefer it.

I'm only against people who put themselves on an imaginary pedastal above other players, believing themselves to be "superior"; again, I'm sure none of which exist here. Hardcore fans are fine, I like to think of myself as a "hardcore fan", but in terms of importance, I know my place:

Thats not what you said earlier and you are moving the goal posts. You did say those hardcore fans exist here. Or it would not have come up. I ask you this if hardcore players seem to not know their place because they think they know what is best, or they somehow infringe on others enjoyment of the base game then where does that leave the more casual player who suggest mechanic removal or simplifying game elements. Surely that pendulum of self importance swings BOTH ways, does it not? Just by us commenting here we are all placing a certain level of self importance on our opinions by thinking people even care to read them.

There is no imaginary pedestal here other than two differing opinions on what constitutes fun and you will never see eye to eye on that with others. Just because you disagree doesnt mean anyone is being arrogant or elitist.

 

[MechanicalLens]

I feel the exact same way. Id never force anyone to us the dirty word, I know my options and what they are. I see such a pushback though for people who suggest things to be a bit more difficult. Scan these forums and they are chock full of requests and suggestions for things to make play easier. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. We all are allowed to voice our opinions. And I am thankful for that.

But you get these comments whenever someone even hints they want something to be tuned up a bit. Maybe they are the voices who shout the loudest but it almost feels dirty when you dont like a change lie the quest icons or if you want to suggest zombies being more difficult or if you LIKED food poisoning. At least certainly way more comments from those who favor changes that move away from survival more so than those who want survival to mean something.

I stopped participating here for two very good reasons. 1 was the fact we keep being reminded how small we are and how little we really mean to the overall success of 7 days so why bother and 2 anytime I see discussions asking for more difficult survival we get posts from people who feel like they are being attacked because of our suggestions, like we are infringing on their right to enjoy the game when that is not what  hardcore players are trying to do.

Bring on more settings for harder play. Keep default where it is because I think its perfect for beginners. But we need a 7 or 8 setting on difficulty for those of us who prefer it.

Thats not what you said earlier and you are moving the goal posts. You did say those hardcore fans exist here. Or it would not have come up. I ask you this if hardcore players seem to not know their place because they think they know what is best, or they somehow infringe on others enjoyment of the base game then where does that leave the more casual player who suggest mechanic removal or simplifying game elements. Surely that pendulum of self importance swings BOTH ways, does it not? Just by us commenting here we are all placing a certain level of self importance on our opinions by thinking people even care to read them.

There is no imaginary pedestal here other than two differing opinions on what constitutes fun and you will never see eye to eye on that with others. Just because you disagree doesnt mean anyone is being arrogant or elitist.

You're right. I've taken a bit of time away from the screen and I realize that indeed you are right. I'll try to be the better person (compared to my previous self) and keep my mouth quiet regarding this topic from now on. (From now on = this comment.) I have to learn not to jump to conclusions, overthink things, and make irrational decisions.

 

[SnowDog1942]

I stopped participating here 

While I agree or at the very least see your side of most of your post, I disagree with the quoted section above

 

[MechanicalLens]

Also @JaxTeller718 I just realized you're THE Jaxteller718, as in the JaxTeller718 who has made quite a few good mods on the 7D2D Mod Launcher by sphereII, no? If so, keep up the good work. 

(Note: I am not bringing in modded discussion in this comment. I just made a connection.)

 

[Aurelius]

Also @JaxTeller718 I just realized you're THE Jaxteller718, as in the JaxTeller718 who has made quite a few good mods on the 7D2D Mod Launcher by sphereII, no? If so, keep up the good work. 

(Note: I am not bringing in modded discussion in this comment. I just made a connection.)

The one and the same. He's got his own E3 booth front and center of the main conference hall.

-A

 

[Operator_Death]

Also @JaxTeller718 I just realized you're THE Jaxteller718, as in the JaxTeller718 who has made quite a few good mods on the 7D2D Mod Launcher by sphereII, no? If so, keep up the good work. 

(Note: I am not bringing in modded discussion in this comment. I just made a connection.)

Yep that's him.

 

[Khalagar]

I stopped participating here for two very good reasons. 1 was the fact we keep being reminded how small we are and how little we really mean to the overall success of 7 days so why bother and 2 anytime I see discussions asking for more difficult survival we get posts from people who feel like they are being attacked because of our suggestions, like we are infringing on their right to enjoy the game when that is not what  hardcore players are trying to do.

Yeah, I definitely empathize with this. TFP has to walk the fine line between hardcore players (which is not a slur) and casuals. The hardcore already *have* the game so we aren't making them any more money until TFP starts making new expansions and DLC, which IMO should be the model TFP aims towards like Ark. ATM they are trying to target the casual market to get more sales, as they don't make money from the people who are actually playing the game every alpha because we've already paid, so it's understandable when they are like

"You've already paid, we aren't catering to you, we want to know what features will make John Doe buy the game instead of what features Randy Random Diehard wants that will make the game harder on noobs"

At the same time, the existing player base is the lifeblood of the game and are the main thing that spreads the game via word of mouth. The first thing most people will do when they see a semi interesting game like this on sale is go check reviews and read forum threads on it to get a quick idea if it's an Early Access scam or "one of the good ones".

Hard line to toe, pissing off your existing base will just get you review bombed and shoot your game in both feet instantly, but not being able to appeal to new players means no more money coming in until you find a way to actually make money off the people who already bought it 20 years ago for $7 on a Steam sale.

The only real solutions for this stage are optional difficulty settings and appealing to the hardcore base when it's feasible and cheap, while mainly just making the game more appealing to the general audience. Eventually when they can start making money off expansions and DLC they will likely care a lot more about what the existing base wants rather than focusing on what the potential base might prefer

 

[Roland]

For example, a child's word should never be treated with as much weight as the word of an adult

What if the child is Haley Joel Osment and the thing he says is, "I see dead people"?