PC Hard-core survival description on Steam store

Rotor said:
A simple way to look at it is:  If the game mechanic does not dictate a change, i.e. Snow blizzard in your tidy whities no repercussion, then is just window dressing...aka casual.
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I agree that weather survival right now is window dressing but that isn’t the intended final state. Weather survival is gone back and forth over the years and right now the pendulum is on the “not functioning” side. That’s part of development and I believe the Early Access label should be factored in if at any given moment the survival aspects are non functioning. 
 

Bandits are tied in with the new outfits and clothing which is tied in to weather survival. It’s a tangle which should get sorted once bandits are in and clothing and outfits finalized. 

 
Roland said:
I agree that weather survival right now is window dressing but that isn’t the intended final state. Weather survival is gone back and forth over the years and right now the pendulum is on the “not functioning” side. That’s part of development and I believe the Early Access label should be factored in if at any given moment the survival aspects are non functioning. 
 

Bandits are tied in with the new outfits and clothing which is tied in to weather survival. It’s a tangle which should get sorted once bandits are in and clothing and outfits finalized. 
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Looking on bandits models -- > probably not.  bandits will just be working like zombie ( i mean clothing) so outfit here are probably not conneted with them

 
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Roland said:
I’ve not played The Long Dark or Green Hell. Do either of those games start to feel trivial from a survival aspect once you gain enough experience with them and come to know exactly what you should do and where to go in order to overcome whatever might be threatening your life at a given moment in the game?  If not, why not?  How do those games remain hardcore survival for the fan with 1000+ hours? @theFlu brought up the point about gameplay loops that trivialize survival and that the gameplay loop that does that in 7 Days involves the trader and is easily discernible after not too many hours playing the game. 

In these other games that deserve the title hardcore survival, what is it that makes survival difficult no matter how experienced you are with the game?
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I think you hit the nail on the head here.  Many games are hardcore to me when they are brand new and im trying not to die during my first, and usually only, play thru.  Can anyone post screenshots of their 2k or 5k plus hours in The Long Dark?  If so, congrats, really lol.   

 
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Roland said:
I agree that weather survival right now is window dressing but that isn’t the intended final state. Weather survival is gone back and forth over the years and right now the pendulum is on the “not functioning” side. That’s part of development and I believe the Early Access label should be factored in if at any given moment the survival aspects are non functioning. 
 

Bandits are tied in with the new outfits and clothing which is tied in to weather survival. It’s a tangle which should get sorted once bandits are in and clothing and outfits finalized. 
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Not to be left out, is food going spoil?  After that, I am good :).  If they throw in sliders at 25/50/75 for these two items, you have the perfect solution......for me :).

 
SnowDog1942 said:
I think you hit the nail on the head here.  Many games are hardcore to me when they are brand new and im trying not to die during my first, and usually only, play thru.  Can anyone post screenshots of their 2k or 5k plus hours in The Long Dark?  If so, congrats, really lol.   
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When focusing on the main objectives, The Long Dark is about 20½ Hours in length. If you're a gamer that strives to see all aspects of the game, you are likely to spend around 182 Hours to obtain 100% completion.

So.... there is no point to play 2k hours in this game

 
Roland said:
I agree that TFP shouldn’t factor in modding capability into their claims of what the game is or is not.
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Weeell.. depends on the claim ;) - "moddable" is a good claim to factor that in. (I'm just intentionally annoyingly nitpicky .. )

Roland said:
My 0-xp mod is not all xml edits which is why it lies broken and abandoned.
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Darnit; but it helped me make my point anyway. That's one game mode I'm looking forward to try, didn't get around to it when it was current.

Roland said:
If Mega’s criteria was an industry standard for the official technical jargon of “hardcore survival” then I agree it would have to be removed. But we aren’t there yet so companies can claim it as long as most consumers don’t care or agree and I think that is exactly where we are at present. 
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This is the part that I think is mostly "temperamental". For me, words having boundaries and actual meaning is important; it doesn't need to be a "definition by a standard body" before a word is worth defending. Others have no regard for the words, use them as you wish. It's something in the division between "exploratory potential" vs "known and effective"; both are useful, but an individual brain seems to tend towards one more than the other.

I'm not accusing you of being willy-nilly here, the hardcore case isn't clear in any way - especially with an uncertain dev direction.

Just, I dunno, thinking out loud? :)

 
Matt115 said:
When focusing on the main objectives, The Long Dark is about 20½ Hours in length. If you're a gamer that strives to see all aspects of the game, you are likely to spend around 182 Hours to obtain 100% completion.

So.... there is no point to play 2k hours in this game
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My point, exactly.

 
I really have no idea what playing time has to do with this topic. If a new player compares 7 days to The long dark not knowing both of them before, he will perceive 7 days as the game with the easy survival part. Same for Green Hell, Project Zomboid, Subsistence and propably more that i didn´t play so far. Even in Raft, wich by no means can be considered hardcore survival, hunger and thirst have way more drastic consequences and you die really fast by them. (And those people who say 7 days is hardcore because they are new, also exist in Raft and say it´s hardcore)

The people Roland talked about that say 7 days is hardcore are surely not players with 2K hours. Hours played isn´t relevant in this discussion.

Also you can play the long dark for 2k hours. There is people who have done that.

 
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SnowDog1942 said:
My point, exactly.
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other hand : project zomboid - probably such high number don't even 7DTD have. Maybe only still active gameS with so high number of hours ARE Heroes of might and magic 3 but in modded version because now standards is  HOTA mod - this  is connected with endless updates because turnaments using mostly this mod. (this complicated but long story short - ubisoft failed so HOTA group is treat by Heroes community as "offical" even if  laws to this game belong to ubisoft. What's more? metroid - hardcore for many, this same thing with few firsts mega man games. So yeah speedrunning is still alive but this game are pretty hardcore.  

pApA^LeGBa said:
I really have no idea what playing time has to do with this topic. If a new player compares 7 days to The long dark not knowing both of them before, he will perceive 7 days as the game with the easy survival part.

The people Roland talked about that say 7 days is hardcore are surely not players with 2K hours. 

Also you can play the long dark for 2k hours. There is people who have done that.
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Well honestly i think this guys who is talking Roland are casual who will stop playing 7dtd after 25-50 hours and change game for more newer/popular

 
pApA^LeGBa said:
The people Roland talked about that say 7 days is hardcore are surely not players with 2K hours. Hours played isn´t relevant in this discussion.
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It’s relevant because all that matters for a marketing pitch is perception. If the majority of players never play the game for 2k hours so the description seems apt, then it is a good description. That’s why there is a difference between industry standard terminology and just words that make the game sound badass. 7 Days can’t claim to be a racing game because that term has become standardized for the industry. But it can call itself “extreme hardcore survival” because it is survival and the adjectives are brags to make it sound badass and most people are going to have less than 2k experience and agree. 
 

When they play The Long Dark or Greem Hell they will think that those games are even more hardcore but they most likely won’t think that all of a sudden 7 Days was casual. 
 

Players in this forum are survival game nerds. That’s what I meant by the adults in the comic book store arguing about the details of the newest issue. Nerds are never happy and always critical about details that nobody else ever notices or cares about. Nerds would rage that a particular issue should be recalled and erased from the current cannon. Their demands never come to anything other than them enjoying the activism they feel talking to their fellow nerds and agreeing with each other. 
 

All of us are nerds about whatever we are passionate about so I’m not exempting myself from the condition. :)

 
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Roland said:
enjoying the activism they feel
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I get what you're saying overall, but "activism" feels quite off here - what does activism feel like?

But, I wouldn't have posted just that - What bothers me is that I can't come up with a good replacement to capture the same idea. "Comradery" could be used, but it would change the idea. You're talking about the "act of agreeing with someone", or "being right in group (according to the prevalent groupthink)"... or something like that.

"enjoying the activity of talking.."? That's a little different still, right?

"tribal...ity"?

Anyone with good suggestions? :)

 
Roland said:
Players in this forum are survival game nerds.
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Truth of the matter is, I hate survival games.  But I don't really consider 7D2D a survival game.  You couldn't pay me to play something like The Long Dark or Green Hell, yet I have over 1000 hours in 7D2D.

I'm an RPG nerd.  And I definitely disagree with whatever definition of RPG Meganoth was talking about before (there are 2 things that define an RPG...can the ruleset be converted directly to be playable on tabletop, even if it would suck to actually play, and are you given choices that have consequences), even though he didn't give specifics. 😛

 
Roland said:
When they play The Long Dark or Greem Hell they will think that those games are even more hardcore but they most likely won’t think that all of a sudden 7 Days was casual. 
 

Players in this forum are survival game nerds. That’s what I meant by the adults in the comic book store arguing about the details of the newest issue. Nerds are never happy and always critical about details that nobody else ever notices or cares about. Nerds would rage that a particular issue should be recalled and erased from the current cannon. Their demands never come to anything other than them enjoying the activism they feel talking to their fellow nerds and agreeing with each other. 
 
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if typical person would play in Sniper elite 1 then sniper elite 5 - probably this person will say thay sniper elite 5 is casual game.  If you give arma 3 then battlefield -this person will say that BF is casual game.  If you show dwarf fortress and then oxygen not included - this person will say that oxygen is pretty casual game. And more and more. 

If you would show someone MC and 7dtd - probably this person would say 7dtd is hardcore but after that you would show project zomboid- this person would probably say that 7dtd is just " a little bit harder minecraft" ( well not hardcore anymore - well MC is pretty complexed now - maybe even 7dtd tier).

Honestly? this depends rolands - some comic are just classics - dead in family ,  kiling joke, flashpoint, marvel zombie - you know what i mean. And then series change in something medicore - like DC's NEW 54 --> this is logical that people will complain. 

Nerds can be happy - warhammer 40k is on of the most..... controversial community but some things are common thing to agree --> Infinity and divine is funny book,  Space wolfs were change vibes from space vikings into space furry,  Erebus and Leandros are hated characters. 

This same thing here - i think 99% people are happy about smooth terrain, water overhaoul,  how lighting was fixed, new zombie gore, New POi's etc. 

So yeah we can be happy - from my point of view. There is one big mistake that TFP done on early stage of development . They never told who is there targer - casual players or hardcore ones. Because then - casuals were complaining now hardcore players are complaing. Yes ofc probably TFP had to gain experiences but such information is critical to know what to expect in future

 
@Roland Your whole argumentation in this thread is based on new players that struggle, every survival game is hardcore for a person that never played any survival game. Wich is shown with Raft. I think we all agree that Raft isn´t a hardcore survival game. Yet people who are new to survival games do struggle a lot and it has been called hardcore due to hunger/thirst issues mostly.

From that standpoint the whole genre is hardcore. No matter wich game. And that doesn´t make any sense.

Just because new people struggle with something doesn´t make that hardcore. Toddlers struggle when walking for the first time. Is walking hardcore?

The whole marketing scheme with overusing terms is getting more and more riddiculous over time. If every survival game deserves the hardcore tag because players new to the survival genre struggle, it is as meaningless as the ads for laundry detergent where every year your laundry will be even whiter than before.

 
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Jost Amman said:
Someone on Steam noticed that on the Steam store page there's a list will all the main 7D2D game features, and among those there's this one:

Survive – Experience real hardcore survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't survival elements in 7D2D, but to be honest, calling them "hard-core" seems a bit of a stretch.

Especially when the cold/hot and weather effects in general are close to irrelevant.

@Roland: wouldn't it be more appropriate to write something like "Survive – Experience a wide range of survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival." ?

This game is, after all, more like this: "7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games"

We wouldn't want people to think this is like (e.g.) Green Hell, wouldn't we?
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At first start in early Alphas, it was hardcore survival mechanics - I actually starved -  thirst to death, your health max decreased as well as stanima where you could die...  I think if you were infected for too long you just died - It was GREAT !!

Now after whining and crying and complaining of broken bones and starving to death - those hardcore survival mechanics are gone to the point that it's a minor annoyance and if you don't like to bother drinking and eating just jump of a cliff to respawn or eat glass and you are good as new.

Oh well, it is EA and mechanics are subject to change.  Maybe TFP might add the Legacy True Surval Mode ?  I would love that.

 
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