PC Hard-core survival description on Steam store

[Jost Amman]

Someone on Steam noticed that on the Steam store page there's a list will all the main 7D2D game features, and among those there's this one:

Survive – Experience real hardcore survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't survival elements in 7D2D, but to be honest, calling them "hard-core" seems a bit of a stretch.

Especially when the cold/hot and weather effects in general are close to irrelevant.

@Roland: wouldn't it be more appropriate to write something like "Survive – Experience a wide range of survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival." ?

This game is, after all, more like this: "7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games"

We wouldn't want people to think this is like (e.g.) Green Hell, wouldn't we?

 

[ElCabong]

You can pick settings to make it as hard core as you want. But you want to make description like this simple so that's probably the best way to say it. I think it's a mistake because not everybody wants to make the game as hard as it possibly can be

 

[Jost Amman]

You can pick settings to make it as hard core as you want. But you want to make description like this simple so that's probably the best way to say it. I think it's a mistake because not everybody wants to make the game as hard as it possibly can be

Hard doesn't translate into "hardcore survival" though.

I'm fully aware the game has settings to make the game as easy or as difficult as you like, but has nothing to do with the survival mechanics (for now).

 

[Melange]

I'll agree, perhaps the description in Steam is a bit over the top. But, its how we have interpreted it, because we have spent a lot of time with this game. No harm intended I suppose. For the neophyte, it may be exactly as described (think first ever experienced horde night).

After that, they'll never think about the Steam wording again. Ever.

Green Hell its not (though I love it). Nor is it Sunken Deep. Nor Subnautica. Nor Mist. Nor Raft...I have spent many hours in all of them. 7dtD is in a league of its own.

 

[Maharin]

Also understand that to people that have not played the game before I'm sure it feels pretty hard core and survival can be rough.  We all have to understand the lens through which we see the game as veterans.

 

[Roland]

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

 

[Maharin]

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

A bit harsh, but I agree that some need daily affirmation. 

 

[Roland]

Hard doesn't translate into "hardcore survival" though.

I'm fully aware the game has settings to make the game as easy or as difficult as you like, but has nothing to do with the survival mechanics (for now).

This is probably a good point and I'll admit I was thinking more of difficulty to survive more than realistic sim-like survival settings. The devs do spend a lot of time (more than I would if I was at the wheel) trying to make sure death loops don't happen and you could probably point to other games that are more on the sim side of things where survival is concerned. Our game is definitely not a simulation and Joel is fond of reminding people about that.

But, I think it still is a fine description since there are also games that are a lot more on the arcade side of things survival-wise. I know I wouldn't spend the time necessary to go and edit it at this point. And who knows, there is still some tweaking to be done, bandits to be added, and a random event manager to destroy our routines. Maybe by the final version it will edge over a bit more to the hardcore side of things.

 

[Maharin]

No matter how difficult they allow us to make it through options there will always be a group of people claiming it isn't hardcore enough (be it general difficulty, survival difficulty, or whatever).  Thankfully, mods can fix this problem for the people with a hardcore fetish.

EDIT:  Maybe that group of people put the CULT in difficult?

 

[Rotor]

Edit: deleted, missed it.

 

[Adam the Waster]

No matter how difficult they allow us to make it through options there will always be a group of people claiming it isn't hardcore enough (be it general difficulty, survival difficulty, or whatever).  Thankfully, mods can fix this problem for the people with a hardcore fetish.

EDIT:  Maybe that group of people put the CULT in difficult?

i agree but once consoles ports come in, they won't have that option lmao 

once it fully comes out to console im switching cuz most of my friends are on xbox, plus busy with life and such lmao

 

[Pernicious]

Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. 

I'm glad of that. I have never chosen my clothes based on the biome I was going to. If I am going to the desert, just take more water. To the snow, more food. 

But heat stroke and hypothermia are real despite how much water people drink or food they eat. And I've never really been anywhere colder than about 2 or 3 below, but ever tried to touch a piece of metal after an hour or two in the Australian sun? Ain't nobody going to be wearing a full steel suit in that temp and surviving long. Honestly since I like light armour, i wouldn't object to light armour being more temperature favourable than heavy.

Its not so much whether it's hard core or not... it's really whether it's even relevant or not. As it is, weather has close to zero impact on the game at all. By the time you can even change biomes, generally you have unlimited food at water so you just accept it as a cost of going somewhere higher level and don't think about it.

 

[Jost Amman]

No matter how difficult they allow us to make it through options there will always be a group of people claiming it isn't hardcore enough (be it general difficulty, survival difficulty, or whatever).  Thankfully, mods can fix this problem for the people with a hardcore fetish.

But currently there aren't settings to make specifically survival harder (unless you consider loot % as one).

You can't change hunger and thirst rate, you can't change how much weather affects you or how serious injuries and infections are.

Roland got it right, I was referring to the true "survival" part, meaning struggling for your basic needs (hunger, thirst, general health, and shelter).

My point is that the description I quoted from the store page could be misleading for people looking for a true survival experience. But I can accept that since the game is not complete yet, the devs may revise weather survival later, which, at this point, is the only part really missing for a complete survival struggle.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

Compared to games like The long Dark, Green Hell, Project Zomboid, Subsistence there is nothing hard core about 7 days. Everyone who plays those games for the first time will tell you that. Did i struggle when i started 7 days to die? Yes ofc. Did i struggle WAY more when playing the other games i listed for the first time? Definitly yes and i started 7 days right after steam release in 2013 when it was harder than now.

And despite of what TFP wants in ways of survival, those are the hardcore survival experience and not 7 Days and as we are talking about a description about the survival part, comparing to those games is legit. And all that i know of that is planned for the future in 7 days has nothing to do with survival, besides the water changes. Bandits aren´t the survival part of the game. No matter how hard they will be, they won´t make 7 days a hardcore survival game, they are part of the FPS genre in the genre mix that 7 days is.

Sadly the survival tag is used very wrong for many games. It might be a minor issue for TFP, as a customer there is nothing more annoying when looking for a survival game than using that tag wrong and a misleading description is as annoying aswell.

 

[RipClaw]

Now, I'm not saying there aren't survival elements in 7D2D, but to be honest, calling them "hard-core" seems a bit of a stretch.

What are you talking about? 7 Days to Die is at least as hardcore as surviving in a hotel without room service.

Let's see if there is more of a survival feeling in A21.

 

[Uncle Al]

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

I've always assumed that a weather/temperature balance pass was on the cards, but dependant on doing the clothing overhaul first. Nice to have it confirmed temperature is definitely due to be looked at, though.

Temperature effects seem fair game to be reasonably punishing, as they're something that doesn't really kick in until the player is ready for them. You choose to go to other biomes so completely new players aren't going to get destroyed by punishing temperature effects. There should be only so much harm the forest is going to do to you.

Having a temperature system that's mildly impactful at forest temperatures, but gets very significant in extreme biomes, seems perfectly feasible and desirable. So a new player feels good about getting their first real clothes because they aren't cold at night, but aren't being shoved into death spiral by temperature effects.  Equally I feel that getting full body immersed in a lake in the snow biome should kill you pretty quickly, unless you very rapidly find shelter and a heat source. That seems the sort of difficulty it's fair to throw at players because by the time they're wandering the snow zone they're not completely new.

 

[Matt115]

Someone on Steam noticed that on the Steam store page there's a list will all the main 7D2D game features, and among those there's this one:

Survive – Experience real hardcore survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't survival elements in 7D2D, but to be honest, calling them "hard-core" seems a bit of a stretch.

Especially when the cold/hot and weather effects in general are close to irrelevant.

@Roland: wouldn't it be more appropriate to write something like "Survive – Experience a wide range of survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival." ?

This game is, after all, more like this: "7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games"

We wouldn't want people to think this is like (e.g.) Green Hell, wouldn't we?

Well i wish that people demand to be as Green hell because it's writen hardcore in describtion but no chance... damn live is sad

You can pick settings to make it as hard core as you want. But you want to make description like this simple so that's probably the best way to say it. I think it's a mistake because not everybody wants to make the game as hard as it possibly can be

Hard=/= hardcore.

Let say FPS as example =

Hard : you have low HP enemy a lot of hp

Hardcore: no cross, manual reload, minimal hud, you have to play very slow

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

"the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival." WHAT.THE..... 7dtd too hardcore sounds like the best joke ever. Maybe years ago when people were much younger that now. But because they had lower skills.  Project zomboid is hardcore even for veterans - i remember guy who spend a +-200 hours in this game and just die because he done something stupid ( if i good remember he bleed because he ignored this).

This is probably a good point and I'll admit I was thinking more of difficulty to survive more than realistic sim-like survival settings. The devs do spend a lot of time (more than I would if I was at the wheel) trying to make sure death loops don't happen and you could probably point to other games that are more on the sim side of things where survival is concerned. Our game is definitely not a simulation and Joel is fond of reminding people about that.

But, I think it still is a fine description since there are also games that are a lot more on the arcade side of things survival-wise. I know I wouldn't spend the time necessary to go and edit it at this point. And who knows, there is still some tweaking to be done, bandits to be added, and a random event manager to destroy our routines. Maybe by the final version it will edge over a bit more to the hardcore side of things.

Honestly - only less hardcore surival in sandbox survival  games  that  7dtd is MC.  MD can be rly hardcore because there is tons mechanics, this same thing with Factorio - there is a polish guy that making pretty famous chanel on yt - he was making stuff in Exel to know what to do to be effective. 

7DTD is simple as first mount and blade -no chance to "stuck" because lack of mechanics. Can be hard but not hardcore.  And bandits can't help and REM can't help too - this is not make game more complexed and complicated . Only things like - totaly and more complicated making vehicles, health system ( a lot of types of ilness), very hard "gunplay"( a lot of types of bullets so you have too choice which one you have use to correct weapon) , advance farming and more and more. Only then it can be said that 7DTD is hardcore

Compared to games like The long Dark, Green Hell, Project Zomboid, Subsistence there is nothing hard core about 7 days. Everyone who plays those games for the first time will tell you that. Did i struggle when i started 7 days to die? Yes ofc. Did i struggle WAY more when playing the other games i listed for the first time? Definitly yes and i started 7 days right after steam release in 2013 when it was harder than now.

And despite of what TFP wants in ways of survival, those are the hardcore survival experience and not 7 Days and as we are talking about a description about the survival part, comparing to those games is legit. And all that i know of that is planned for the future in 7 days has nothing to do with survival, besides the water changes. Bandits aren´t the survival part of the game. No matter how hard they will be, they won´t make 7 days a hardcore survival game, they are part of the FPS genre in the genre mix that 7 days is.

  It might be a minor issue for TFP, as a customer there is nothing more annoying when looking for a survival game than using that tag wrong and a misleading description is as annoying aswell.

That's true. 7DTD is just... almost like Minecraft.  I agree about survival stuff. There is big lack of this element.

"Sadly the survival tag is used very wrong for many games." yeah i think now this tag is used everywhere... when evene MG Survival is much more hardcore survival game ( you have spend at least 10-15 to get basic resources food and water in stable number but still you have tons of work to do).

This is soo sad. 

But honestly @pApA^LeGBa : if 7dtd was hardcore like green hell or project zomobid number of players would be much much lower - yes this would be great for many reasons but you know - more casual game ---> more players = more money

 

[theFlu]

There's some signs that the survival aspect might get some love; the incoming water changes as the main one in my mind. As they're fixing infinite water supply, it gets into a state where it could be tuned to become an issue.

But otherwise, I don't think the survival aspect is even planned to be that much of a focus, so sure, improving the description to match wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd prefer some actually punishing weather and whatnot, but I'm also pretty OK with an FPS tower def ...

 

[Matt115]

There's some signs that the survival aspect might get some love; the incoming water changes as the main one in my mind. As they're fixing infinite water supply, it gets into a state where it could be tuned to become an issue.

But otherwise, I don't think the survival aspect is even planned to be that much of a focus, so sure, improving the description to match wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd prefer some actually punishing weather and whatnot, but I'm also pretty OK with an FPS tower def ...

Well unfortunatly you are pretty wrong. On begining this game was pretty hardcore - food spoiling , smell of meat, wellness system, corpse "cleaning" -  so you had a lot "today job" to do to just survive. i think they simplife everything just to make it easier because : easier = more players. And bigger focus on looting etc because some people don't like "doing dirty job" like take care about food or cleaning corpses

 

[theFlu]

Well unfortunatly you are pretty wrong.

Apart from this, it seems we .. agree? I just won't go into guessing TFP's motives for the simplifications as some were apparently performance things and some were more of consequences of tech changes.