PC Guns

[OneManStanding]

Other than the pump and auto shotguns, I pretty much swear by assault rifles/machine guns because as I see it you are going to want that M60 once things heat up. Besides, needing to make only one type of ammo - 7.62 - makes things easier.

Other than the pipe pistol - which is pretty nice in a pinch early on - I don't use pistols, SMGs, magnums or the vulture; I don't think they do enough damage or hold enough ammo, especially later-game. I would think that if I put points into handguns to make the SMG that I'd end up underpowered in a horde night or infestation map; needing to reload too often or using too much ammo to kill a zombie, versus a burst from the M60 which can take most down.

For those who might perk into it, what are your experiences with the various pistols and the smg versus the assault rifles and M60? Do you consider them weaker or disadvantageous?

 

[theFlu]

I play mostly Agi builds; have for a long time. Warrior difficulty. Atm, clearing a T6 infestation with a machete is a joke due to the OP stealth mechanics. There's about 10-20 things that will know you were ever there, and those are trivially dispatched from the crowds with a few rounds from an SMG / Deagle. You'll be drowning in 9mm and .44 from the quests, to try and throw away on horde nights.

Even before maxing out, the pistols dispatch of things decently; you can go for a high headshot percentage with precise fire, and while a single mag on an SMG won't stop MANY rads rushing you, it seems well sufficient for most situations. Plus you'll get run&gun and parkour for more mobile fighting style, so the guns don't have to be quite as quick.

Unloading an M60 into the swarms of zeds is roughly as effective, and way simpler. But once you're out, you're a bit more stuck with the crowd.. they're different, but I wouldn't say pistols are significantly weaker.

 

[RipClaw]

I'm currently playing a stealth build and use an SMG and a Desert Vulture alongside the crossbow. In my opinion, there are two advantages of the SMG and the Desert Vulture that get little attention.

One is the completion bonuses of the Pistol Pete and Magnum Enforcer book series. With Pistol Pete, 9mm weapons ignore all armor at close range. This is a great advantage, especially against demolishers and soldiers. And with Magnum Enforcer, even regular .44 ammunition will pierce a zombie and do damage to the zombie behind it.

The second advantage is that 9mm and .44 ammo stack up to 300 and the bundles up to 10, so I can carry up to 1300 bullets per ammo type and only need a total of 4 inventory slots.

 

[TWORDY]

I see balancing gets traction finally after a few posts. M60 all the way is no.1 and should stay this way.

Any SMGs in practice shall have higher Rounds Per Minute and stay very accurate in close-range combat while hip-firing. Perhaps SMG should gain 20%-50% to RPM (fire rate) and 10-25% lower damage (DPS) per round compared to AK and Tactical Rifle. I would say with stealth SMG and D-Vulture plays fine. SMG with Pistol has to stay easy to operate with. More might be done with Personal Defence Weapons for them to feel even more unique to other categories. In reality (not a gaming chair survivor), AK and Tactical Rifle blow the enemy head off with one round, but for balancing purposes, Damage Per Shot with Rounds Per Minute must be narrowed down, it is a game, right?

Automatic Shotgun could be 2x faster (right now feels extremely slow/unresponsive) but deal way less damage than Pump Action Shotgun instead. Pump Shotgun should be more accurate at range than the Automatic one. T1 Pipe Shotgun is an atrocity and a complete abomination to reload with on time in a horde zombie game. 

Sniper Rifles... I believe we shall have a completely separate ammo type, why, well swimming in the 7.62 as I presume. The economy for Sniper Rifles must differ from Assault Rifles simply because of shots fired per damage and time to kill to a chest. Damage must be 50% higher on day one and bonuses to consecutive landing shots up to 25% for Sniper Rifles. This is obvious in higher difficulty levels and co-op games. Sniper Operators become annihilated faster due to insufficient ammo spam vs spammy enemies in cramped rooms. Ammo for Sniper Rifle shall be 3-4x times more scarce than 7.62 automatic guns. .308 or whatever but not the same as automatic rifles. You are better off with any automatic weapon or a shotgun simply because of statistics, not because of the ultimate sloppiness of the operator. The basic Pipe Rifle takes forever to reload without perks. And yeah, one shot from Sniper Rifle should have penetrated up to 2 enemies by default, with buffs up to even 5 or 6. Final Sniper Rifle must be slightly more powerful than the M60 because it is a skill weapon, not a general direction trigger-happy gun.

Cripple Em-All mod should rather be a specialized ammo type. Easy ammo conversion should be a thing in late-game. My gut feelings.

Players need a bigger inventory by +5 slots because of LBR book system and new items.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I barely ever use guns anymore. Horde night i use pipe bombs and grenades only and the new armor sets are so OP that i can stand in between 10 radiated Z´s  that got me cornered, wearing my raider set, and i don´t need to use a gun and still will come out with at least half my health, (ofc pain tolerance and the brawler books do play a role here  but the set bonus and being immune to stun is the main part here)

Desert Vulture is a freaking beast if perked that also reloads super fast. Getting there is kinda meh compared to using AK and the tactical AR, but i don´t like the slow fire rate of the AR. M60 is unmatched when talking pure fire power, but the SMG5 does the job good enough for me.

@TWORDY Last thing we need is additional ammo types. It´s enough. I don´t need anymore stuff cluttering up the inventory. Because we won´t get new inventory slots just because they introduce a new ammo type and/or item. The inventory size is chosen like it is so that you have to make decisions. And a new ammo type plus more slots will just lead to people scrapping unwanted ammo and profit from the extra inventory slots for other things.

 

[OneManStanding]

I barely ever use guns anymore...

See, I'm probably playing differently to you -- I feel I'm at a point that melee is getting useless. I'm perked into blades and clubs and they're fine for regulars, but the radioatives and the sheer numbers require an M60 and an auto-shotgun. I don't understand much about the armour sets, so going to have to look into that.

Last thing we need is additional ammo types...

My only view here is that AP and HP ammo aren't really all that worth it. The additional damage is minor for the extra time spent making either gunpowder or bullet tips. Alternate ammo should cost more resources, but stand out more. More like fire arrows and explosive arrows.

 

[TWORDY]

@TWORDY Last thing we need is additional ammo types. It´s enough. I don´t need anymore stuff cluttering up the inventory. Because we won´t get new inventory slots just because they introduce a new ammo type and/or item. The inventory size is chosen like it is so that you have to make decisions. And a new ammo type plus more slots will just lead to people scrapping unwanted ammo and profit from the extra inventory slots for other things.

I am not saying to keep on adding stuff for the sake of adding. My only wish is to have items that better reflect effectiveness and cost in terms of balancing. Already devs added another category of books but not as much space in the backpack as the main inventory. You do have also additional storage that comes with vehicles and mods. I doubt that a separate ammo category dedicated to Sniper Rifles might heavily impact the storage-related issues in the long run. Plus other players might easily drop ammo they don`t use for their specialization. What we are missing is probably quick ammo conversion. I was opting for the removal of piles of bodies after Horde Night, Glass jars are gone (not my idea), and scraped iron is limited. Now is the time for balancing and more functional stuff to be added. 

 

[theFlu]

My only view here is that AP and HP ammo aren't really all that worth it.

HP is rather weak, but the proper use for AP is on multiple targets, that alone doubling the damage output; the armor penetration itself is only really great on demos, other things like rad soldiers die to regular ammo just the same.

Ofc with demos, the multitarget feature is also a real risk, somewhat even after one learns to aim at the demos behind the mass of others.

 

[Riamus]

I use spears throughout the game and only swap to a gun if I need distance (like a zombie that fell off a building and I don't want to chase it) or in certain situations where I'm just getting swarmed.  But those I can usually handle with the  spear just fine even in infested quests except with a few POI that are particularly difficult in spots.  With a full set of spear books and maxed spear perks, I can hit multiple enemies at once before they can reach me, and I can regen stamina after every kill.  As long as I can keep getting headshots, even the radiated zombies die quickly and almost always get knocked down from the first headshot using a Q6 steel spear with a full set of mods.  If you're playing at max difficulty, that probably won't work so well, of course.  I just play default.

As far as the pistol group of weapons, SMG works really well in most cases if you need lots of ammo unloaded quickly.  With a mag extender, you get enough ammo in a clip that you should be able to kill whatever is coming unless it's a large group and then, if you're backing off and using run & gun maxed, it's very quick to reload and avoid being hit, so not really a big deal.  The vulture has great damage and even though it has a smaller magazine, you can usually kill zombies very quickly with it.  But these are a different style of fighting from what you'd be used to if you're always using machine guns.  It's just like someone who always uses shotguns will fight differently.  It doesn't necessarily mean one type is better than another.  But what works best for how you play will likely be either SG or MG or HG rather than any of them.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@OneManStanding You should look into armors and probably perks and book series. You can do this game nearly all melee. Yesterday we just did the Last sunset POI as a T6 quest and didn´t fire a single shot (currently at warrior difficulty but after that was so easy we are going survivalist from now on). And that quest was full of rads. We have a whole steel chest full of 7.62mm and never crafted a single bullet.

It saves you a lot of time if you melee whenever you can.

 

[Javabean867]

I actually like all of the guns.  At the various levels of play.

I even love the pipe rifle for hunting deer, and the occasional zombie sniping session from a rooftop.

I think people aren't giving the sniper rifle enough credit in endgame.  Paired with the penetrator perk and ap ammo it is amazing.  It's got a decent rof, reload speed and tons of damage.

Difficulty plays a major role in the game.  And I think some players see glock 9 and jawoodle at end game, see that melee isn't doing a lot, and don't realize they are playing highest difficulty at that point.

 

[stample]

I also mostly play AGI builds, and while SMG does less damage than an M60, it has the same chance to decap.  I rarely kill a zombie with the SMG through sheer bullet hosery, I just fire 2-3 shots into their head and it explodes.  As said above, being able to carry 2x the ammo per slot more than makes up for the pure damage loss.

I switched it up this time and used the M60 and Auto-shotty, but still using Assassin build.  Its not really that different to me.  Most things are dying from a single shot while still asleep, some rads get up and take a 2nd round in the face.  Almost nothing takes a 3rd round unless my aim is bad.  And if it really, really mattered, I'd use the compound crossbow with steel arrows.  That seems to always 1-shot a sleeper.

I think a fundamental problem here is that higher-powered ammo doesn't provide a better decap chance.  A 9mm vs a .44 vs a 7.62 vs a 7.62 HP should not have the same decap chance.  I would love to see 7.62 and .44 have an inherent +10% chance to decap, and all HP ammo provide another +10%.  (so 20% for 7.62 HP/.44 HP).  Or 5%, I don't know.  Or maybe 9mm is -10%, and HP is +10% and .44 and 7.62 are baseline.  Depends how high we want decap to be able to get.  Balance it however you like, but ammo known for blowing holes in things, should blow holes in things.

 

[Syphon583]

In my latest playthrough, I played agility. The Vulture and SMG packed plenty of punch (playing on Warrior) for my needs (no traps except for electric fences. While I carried an assault rifle with me on horde night, it was purely to use up all of the 7.62 I had laying around. I would have rather rolled with an extra SMG or Vulture. The Vulture has surprisingly good penetration once you've perked appropriately and found the right books.

 

[BFT2020]

FYI for agility build players, pistols are really great against ferals and radiated zombies once you find the perk book with increase chance of crippling legs.  I did a T5 POI in the wasteland (army base) and I just kept kiting them once I pulled them out of buildings.  Eventually I had them slowed down with crippling effects which made them easy to pick off then

 

[theFlu]

you find the perk book with increase chance of crippling legs. 

Hmm, it might be great with the masses of zeds we have now, I haven't tested to say .. as I've always looked at it as "I'd rather just cripple the head tbh" ...