PC Glass Jars Question, A21

[zztong]

Is yours working in 1.0?

Yes. I do recall making some changes, but I don't recall what they were. My github would probably have the details if you went back through the changes.

The only quirks I'm aware of are:

• It still says "Drink" in the UI.
  
• It still shows the drinking animation rather than a taking animation, and
  
• It makes it impossible to get the achievement for drinking from a river, lake, etc.
  

None of those have bothered me enough to look into them.

 

[Krougal]

Yes.

The only quirks I'm aware of are:

• It still says "Drink" in the UI.
  
• It still shows the drinking animation rather than a taking animation, and
  
• It makes it impossible to get the achievement for drinking from a river, lake, etc.
  

None of those have bothered me enough to look into them.

Thanks, I'll have to fiddle with mine, it is really the same code, I just removed some of the extra things you do.

The config between A21 and 1.0 for the hand in items.xml looks the same still so I'm a little puzzled why it didn't work, but then I found a water filter on day 1 (that really should be a t3 mod) so I was lazy about fixing it. Although I think I'd still rather keep the bottles and just go the extra step of not drinking out of the river.

 

[zztong]

I just removed some of the extra things you do.

I removed a number of things related to the Dew Collector since TFP's V1.0 Dew Collector has a filter-less option, like I had added. That modlet got smaller for V1.0.

 

[Krougal]

I removed a number of things related to the Dew Collector since TFP's V1.0 Dew Collector has a filter-less option, like I had added. That modlet got smaller for V1.0.

I just put the mod back in and it is working properly.

I feel like I have had mods fail to load for no reason from time to time.

Mine gets water with the stock 1 second delay and I added a snowball to water recipe.

 

[zztong]

I added a snowball to water recipe.

I've thought about doing this, though I worry it makes water too easy. I'm all for having to go harvest snow. I tend to keep a few thousand snow around to make Yucca Smoothies. I worry that it could become a high capacity glue factory. How is it playing out for you? What recipe are you using?

 

[theFlu]

I worry that it could become a high capacity glue factory.

Hmm, asking since you're actually modding it, and might've given it more of a test than I have: do you feel you're limited by the "water for glue production" at points in the game? What are those points? From A21 I never felt limited because of water past d1/d2, and while my experience with A22 is solely from YT, I don't think it changed much. If anything the collectors are more effective now. (?)

 

[Krougal]

I've thought about doing this, though I worry it makes water too easy. I'm all for having to go harvest snow. I tend to keep a few thousand snow around to make Yucca Smoothies. I worry that it could become a high capacity glue factory. How is it playing out for you? What recipe are you using?

<append xpath="/recipes">
<recipe name="drinkJarRiverWater" count="1" >
<ingredient name="resourceSnowBall" count="10"/>
</recipe>
</append>


I don't get a lot of use out of it, since I usually keep my main base in the grass biome and collect water. Considering it still has to be boiled I don't think either are too OP, but yes, the extra water sources are exactly that; a high capacity glue factory w/o spamming dew collectors.

Hmm, asking since you're actually modding it, and might've given it more of a test than I have: do you feel you're limited by the "water for glue production" at points in the game? What are those points? From A21 I never felt limited because of water past d1/d2, and while my experience with A22 is solely from YT, I don't think it changed much. If anything the collectors are more effective now. (?)

In A21 I felt very limited. While I abuse the traders as much as the next guy, I still prefer to craft my own gear. Before 1.0 added them, I also had modded QL6 crafting but my recipes were fair and balanced (I think it was pahbi's mod I went with) and used a ton of glue. 2 junk turrets and a drone was a few hundred glue right there. I also like to use a full mix of weapons for different situations and I like the best. Late game, it is not unusual for me to have 5 or more firearms on me at a given time.

It might make it a little too easy, but the main thing is otherwise it is just tedious. 

I am not too far into 1.0 playthrough, so I haven't had a chance to update my sole dew collector yet. Considering it is pretty easy now to spam dew collectors I think it's more or less just a preference thing to have other options.

Afterthoughts:

I'd still consider glue the issue and not drinking water. My guess is the pimps see it that way too. The water filter being pretty common (I feel like I almost always have one in the first few days for several alphas) makes drinking a non-issue. If you don't have a filter, unless you're having trouble finding a pot, drinking is solved easily. Now even having the helmet filter, I still prefer to make red tea, especially since food seems to be an issue for me the first couple weeks, the slow digestion helps.

I also had tried the delay and stack limits but I feel like adding tedium would still not stop mass collection. Any power-gamer worth the title is going to sit there and get RSI clicking repeatedly and suffer through the mind-numbing boredom. I guess I just don't want to spend as much time thinking about making glue or do I save this glue or make it into duct tape as the pimps seem to want us to ever since they made everything duct tape based back in what? A20?.

I also think at vanilla that it makes certain other parts of the game not get used. Frequently I would go without things until late game rather than wasting precious duct tape that I will need later. Why blow a bunch on a low-tier gun or piece of armor, tough it out until you can make the ql 5/6 and also skip most tiers. Those t1 weapons may suck, but at least they don't require a repair kit to fix, which requires duct tape.

 

[theFlu]

Considering it is pretty easy now to spam dew collectors I think it's more or less just a preference thing to have other options.

That's kinda what I'm worried about; all the hubbub of the water changes and they've mainly managed to add some heat to your base and some polymer farming. Could've reached roughly the same spot just by making the murky take a minute (or fifteen) to boil; polymer being replaced by the fuel.

 

[Krougal]

That's kinda what I'm worried about; all the hubbub of the water changes and they've mainly managed to add some heat to your base and some polymer farming. Could've reached roughly the same spot just by making the murky take a minute (or fifteen) to boil; polymer being replaced by the fuel.

Well, it takes 50 seconds now, so close. If they made the time ridiculous, the answer would be to just spam campfires (or just mod it back to 50). Make your crafting base a horde base to deal with the non-stop screamer horde and reap the rewards.

We shouldn't give them anymore bad ideas though. It always feels like they try to punish the players who will go to any length to game the system, but they just wind up punishing everyone.

One thing I will give them though, it is very difficult to balance everything in a game such as this. Even having the knowledge and ability to edit the configs, I still waffle back and forth a lot on what feels right. Take the limited inventory size vs the ever increasing variety of items that won't stack. I've used larger inventory mods frequently but have gone back to using the default and dealing with the gameplay style that arises from it. Granted late game with the endurance run POIs it feels cramped again, even with the fully upgrade drone and copter around. Part of it is to make yourself stop collecting everything you don't need like a magpie. When you've got stacks and stacks and stacks of polymer, it is time to stop bringing more home.

 

[Javabean867]

You could add a glue recipe that creates glue from a bucket of water.  I'd think 10 glue per bucket.  you might be able to have it return the bucket as well.  That way the glue production is still limited to "10 per backpack slot" and thus keeping the balance of water to glue.

But honestly i get can get 20 to 30 murky water from looting and having dew collector or 2.  I just don't see the need for additional water sources.  Especially once you have the yucca smoothie recipe, or even the purified water recipe)  you barely use the clean water for anything other than glue.

 

[zztong]

Hmm, asking since you're actually modding it, and might've given it more of a test than I have: do you feel you're limited by the "water for glue production" at points in the game? What are those points? From A21 I never felt limited because of water past d1/d2, and while my experience with A22 is solely from YT, I don't think it changed much. If anything the collectors are more effective now. (?)

With and without my mod I don't feel constrained by glue production. Maybe, sometimes, I need to wait a day longer to make some glue or gather water. I used to need glue early to make Padded Armor. Usually I just need some duct tape and these days I'm equally likely to run out of cloth and need to go rip down curtains in a POI. This is likely a result of my crafting habits and my early willingness to stick with primitive tools. I tend to craft what I call "break point" things. I won't craft an Iron tool until I can make a Tier 5. I won't craft a steel tool until I can make a T5 or T6.

But in the discussions a year ago, (IIRC) some people lamented the difficulty of mass production of exploding arrows which they used in large numbers on horde night. I've kept that in the back of my mind as something that is important to the debate for one reason or another.

Yes, to me, in A21 three Dew Collectors was effectively infinite water and the "break even" point for being able to carry water away from a water source. In V1.0, that would be either 3 Dew Collectors or 1.5 Dew Collectors with the component that makes the Dew Collector gather water faster.

In the end I can't really understand or reconcile while TFP continues not letting people carry water away from a source, jars or no jars. It isn't a huge factor in the game. Making water harder to purify is more interesting and affects play longer, at least to me.

 

[zztong]

I also had tried the delay and stack limits but I feel like adding tedium would still not stop mass collection. Any power-gamer worth the title is going to sit there and get RSI clicking repeatedly and suffer through the mind-numbing boredom.

To some extent I agree. I can (and do) AutoHotkey things like mining and breaking into safes. I can get up and walk around, stretch my legs, take a drink, make a sandwich. But I don't need that much water, so having to invest a minute of play to get 10 waters means I'm not raiding a POI. It short enough I don't have a macro for that.

Make your crafting base a horde base to deal with the non-stop screamer horde and reap the rewards.

We shouldn't give them anymore bad ideas though. It always feels like they try to punish the players who will go to any length to game the system, but they just wind up punishing everyone.

I get what you're saying, but that's not their perspective. They're making a game. There's suffering, reward, and interesting decisions to be made. It's their job to complicate our game lives in interesting ways.

Also, a number of players look at screamers as bringing the player experience points. I've played with folks where we'd have a whole bunch of campfires to attract screamers and have a continual horde going. Yes, V1.0 caught me unprepared for the pair of screamers that showed up when I was running a forge and a campfire. I felt miffed at first, but Improvise! Adapt! Overcome!

 

[theFlu]

I also had tried the delay and stack limits but I feel like adding tedium would still not stop mass collection. Any power-gamer worth the title is going to sit there and get RSI clicking repeatedly and suffer through the mind-numbing boredom.

Yeh, guilty.. I'd incorporate water into my base one way or another (beach or bucket), so I can gather it while waiting for other stuff to craft.

I tend to craft what I call "break point" things. I won't craft an Iron tool until I can make a Tier 5.

Overall sounds similar to what I do ... in A21 I usually mostly thought about crafting something; then the trader would toss me something slightly worse or even better, and I never really crafted much. My AGI run was the only where I actually crafted enough to run out of something temporarily, but even that was gun parts (quality 5s of all the 4 weapons IIRC).

 

[Krougal]

To some extent I agree. I can (and do) AutoHotkey things like mining and breaking into safes. I can get up and walk around, stretch my legs, take a drink, make a sandwich. But I don't need that much water, so having to invest a minute of play to get 10 waters means I'm not raiding a POI. It short enough I don't have a macro for that.

I get what you're saying, but that's not their perspective. They're making a game. There's suffering, reward, and interesting decisions to be made. It's their job to complicate our game lives in interesting ways.

Also, a number of players look at screamers as bringing the player experience points. I've played with folks where we'd have a whole bunch of campfires to attract screamers and have a continual horde going. Yes, V1.0 caught me unprepared for the pair of screamers that showed up when I was running a forge and a campfire. I felt miffed at first, but Improvise! Adapt! Overcome!

I'm too lazy to set that up, but I really should. Getting too old for all the clicking.

Sometimes I wonder about the devs. Some of the mechanics just feel punitive. I started listing some points, but I don't want to digress. It also might be an unjustified feeling on my part.

Yes, I generally love the screamer hordes, except when I don't. I think if you are on an active quest they shouldn't come. Or at least they need to adjust the current mechanics a bit (I never really considered it an issue in prior versions). There is another discussion going about that.

Yeh, guilty.. I'd incorporate water into my base one way or another (beach or bucket), so I can gather it while waiting for other stuff to craft.

Overall sounds similar to what I do ... in A21 I usually mostly thought about crafting something; then the trader would toss me something slightly worse or even better, and I never really crafted much. My AGI run was the only where I actually crafted enough to run out of something temporarily, but even that was gun parts (quality 5s of all the 4 weapons IIRC).

Now I haven't even tried lately, can you still make an infinite water source? I thought they took the ability away from us many alphas ago.

I tend to do the same with the crafting, although with the extra water sources I am more inclined to craft more. I never really thought about it, but I hate the dew collector. It only holds 3 water and you have to check it all the time. I want to gather water like once a day or when I need it, not be arsed with checking the thing all the time. I put 1 at every base for emergency drinking water mostly I guess.

I am probably more than a little OCD so these kinda things (something I need to check on all the time) make me nuts and combine with my crappy time management skill and I feel like I waste a lot of time with these things. So I'm ready to get on my bike, but I check the collector and then I have to run all the way back up into the base and put it away. Yes, that is a me problem. If I had a field of the things I'd really drive myself insane. So I guess when I can just go and collect enough water for the week at once and be done with it, it helps me a lot, and I realize having this mod is a lot more important to me than I thought it was at first. 

For a bit of nostalgia and testing a couple things, I am actually playing an A19 game at the moment. It felt a bit weird to go and fill up a stack of glass jars in 1 swipe of my hand. I remember going into the desert to dig up a ton of sand to make 100s of jars at a time, but then I think that was for mass grain alcohol production, another blast from the past.

 

[theFlu]

Now I haven't even tried lately, can you still make an infinite water source? I thought they took the ability away from us many alphas ago.

I did test a bit in A21, I think I was able to duplicate 'some' water by tossing it around from a bucket; but it was just a quick test to see if it's at all possible, never got around to trying to actually make it work properly. I think JaWoodle had a bucket-made "well" to drink from at some point in A21 and it didn't seem to drain by drinking - of course any mechanic, mod or vanilla, to produce portable water might be different in that regard...

 

[meganoth]

am probably more than a little OCD so these kinda things (something I need to check on all the time) make me nuts and combine with my crappy time management skill and I feel like I waste a lot of time with these things. So I'm ready to get on my bike, but I check the collector and then I have to run all the way back up into the base and put it away.

A solution to this might be a storage box that you could place near the collectors. I usually do this for water as well as seeds and it helps tremendously fight the desire to go up into the base again. I usually also have a storage box on an outside wall reachable from inside and outside the base as a temporary storage for anything that eventually should go in or out of the base, like loot or stuff to sell.

 

[Krougal]

A solution to this might be a storage box that you could place near the collectors. I usually do this for water as well as seeds and it helps tremendously fight the desire to go up into the base again. I usually also have a storage box on an outside wall reachable from inside and outside the base as a temporary storage for anything that eventually should go in or out of the base, like loot or stuff to sell.

Haha, yeah one thing I've learned, especially from watching youtubes is I do not place anywhere near enough storage chests in the world. The main reason I am playing A19 right now is I was following along someone's insane/nightmare plathrough-tutorial. Even as long as I have been playing, it has just never been my style, I try to do stuff outside my comfort zone to learn from time to time. Although I still am finding it not for me, I've at least learned some new tricks, and it does give perspective on other playstyles.