PC Glass Jars Question, A21

[Kartan]

Some background for you in case it is news, as this was a hot topic of discussion in the A21 release about a year ago...

None of the other consumables has a container. Gasoline, for instance, the gas can icon just represents the liquid, not a container. So, water is just depicted as a glass jar but they're not really trying to have a container that gets filled. Thus, while the "empty glass jar" was what we had, the issue of carrying around water doesn't really depend on having empty jars.

Instead, I focus on the ability to carry water away from a water source. If the game is just going to assume containers are always available for things like gasoline, then to me the assumption is also true for water. Thus, I think the best outcome is that when you're at a lake, you should be able to drink (currently possible) or carry away some water which would look like a jar of water.

However, TFP wants some early game survival challenges and struggling for potable water is part of that. I can embrace the goal. I love the goal, actually. I just don't share much enthusiasm over the implementation. They would have you go into POIs and find water as loot, and that is currently a viable method of play. Once you find a cooking pot, this quickly evolves into purifying the water you find. Once you get a little knowledge about workstations (2 magazines) you unlock a Dew Collector which produces water. Over time, you'll likely develop a number of Dew Collectors (and improve the features of your existing Dew Collectors) and eliminate water scarcity from your challenges.

It isn't a bad minigame once you know how to play it. Its just that they way they deal with water sources (pools, lakes, rivers) and the initial sources of water (POIs) isn't realistic enough to align with a player's real-world experiences, so it is confusing.

Yeah, I can see the “nothing else is a container so why should water be one” argument except for the fact that it’s…. Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

 

[meganoth]

mean your first 2 examples are totally irrelevant lol, games that start you with a pistol and you can’t take other enemies weapons? They have to maintain a level of challenge somehow there’s 1 goal in those fps games shoot the enemy.

TFP wants to make water a small struggle <-> The shooter wants to make ammo and weapons a struggle.

Very comparable, though in TFP it is on a smaller scale while ammo and guns is central to the shooter. Still I don't see why they are not comparable.

Both this and the second example show that players accept unrealistic limitations because there are reasons for it or because they don't even notice them. The reasons may be big or small, the players may not even really accept the reasons, but most of them don't even think about those limits when they play the game. They would only notice if the game changes those limits, either removing them or setting them up. Other missing containers in 7D2D show that if it isn't changed under your feet you don't even notice that they are missing.

So this is a result of being part of Early Access. If the game had water like this from the start nobody would have complained.

I saw madmole in another thread talking about jars and water being leftover engine work previously from when it was more “Minecraft” like. What are they doing with the game then? What’s their final visions? I was always under the impression that this game was just that: Minecraft with zombies. That’s what it played like that’s what I introduced it to my friends as and they agreed. That’s not a bad thing? It’s unique and fun im not sure what their final vision of the game is. It seems playing this new version from the old Xbox one that it’s taken more of an FPS/Action genre, are they trying to make it more like dead island/ left for dead?? If so what a terrible idea. Minecraft zombies is what makes it unique and that’s what me and my friends will always appreciate it for. 

Their vision seems to be to create a new game in many respects and not simply copy stuff from other games. At least thats what I get from their experiments with all sorts of features where they always tried to find new ways instead of giving the player stuff they found in all the other games. If you only wanted Minecraft with Zombies, that is a rather meek goal wouldn't you say?. That could be done by a minecraft mod much better.

If you want the hundredth copy of some existing games like dead island, look around. Steam publishes dozen of uninspired copies of successful games each month

Yeah, I can see the “nothing else is a container so why should water be one” argument except for the fact that it’s…. Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

This is part of learning the game. To find out how it works, how to improve your chances to survive. I can tell you that no veteran player has a problem getting water and dew collector on day 1. Do you want to find out yourself or do you want us to tell you how it works?

 

[Treb]

Yeah, I can see the “nothing else is a container so why should water be one” argument except for the fact that it’s…. Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

Have you visited the trader? I would be very surprised if you didn't find a single forge ahead magazine in their workstations.

 

[ElCabong]

Water is more valuable now and that's a good thing. I can be a little short the first two days but after I get my dew collector, it's not a problem. After it is fully modded and with what you loot, you have in excess of water to make all the food and drink you need. There's always enough left over to make glue

 

[Kartan]

Have you visited the trader? I would be very surprised if you didn't find a single forge ahead magazine in their workstations.

Yeah I found there’s a broken down forge at the first guy trader rekt and it seems to spawn there. I started a  solo game and I found the forge my first trip to the trader so I went and got it with my buddy in multiplayer

TFP wants to make water a small struggle <-> The shooter wants to make ammo and weapons a struggle.

Very comparable, though in TFP it is on a smaller scale while ammo and guns is central to the shooter. Still I don't see why they are not comparable.

Both this and the second example show that players accept unrealistic limitations because there are reasons for it or because they don't even notice them. The reasons may be big or small, the players may not even really accept the reasons, but most of them don't even think about those limits when they play the game. They would only notice if the game changes those limits, either removing them or setting them up. Other missing containers in 7D2D show that if it isn't changed under your feet you don't even notice that they are missing.

So this is a result of being part of Early Access. If the game had water like this from the start nobody would have complained.

Their vision seems to be to create a new game in many respects and not simply copy stuff from other games. At least thats what I get from their experiments with all sorts of features where they always tried to find new ways instead of giving the player stuff they found in all the other games. If you only wanted Minecraft with Zombies, that is a rather meek goal wouldn't you say?. That could be done by a minecraft mod much better.

If you want the hundredth copy of some existing games like dead island, look around. Steam publishes dozen of uninspired copies of successful games each month

This is part of learning the game. To find out how it works, how to improve your chances to survive. I can tell you that no veteran player has a problem getting water and dew collector on day 1. Do you want to find out yourself or do you want us to tell you how it works?

They haven’t made a new game whatsoever? The game is literally Minecraft with zombies no matter how you want to look at it lol. As for the other games I still don’t get how you can compare not being able to enter certain buildings to changing a whole water system in a game? They had water containers and jars and now they don’t. For a survival game to take that away and force you to make dew collectors and make rivers/ponds obsolete is ridiculous.

 

[rateds2k]

 Water? I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems. The fact they want me to run away from the lake to a random house to loot for dirty water to purify just doesn’t make any sense at all.

That is normally a day one problem, I have had two playthroughs on 1.0 and had two dew collectors up and running both the 1st night. You can also drink directly from water

 

[Kartan]

That is normally a day one problem, I have had two playthroughs on 1.0 and had two dew collectors up and running both the 1st night. You can also drink directly from water

Yeah I missed the magazine at the traders’ forge, still ridiculous I have to find a magazine at this dudes forge to be able to learn how to make dew collectors to then wait on dirty water as opposed to utilizing the bodies of water on the map. I mean what is this? Dune spice wars??

 

[Riamus]

So this old thread was resurrected again?  Fun.

Not everything has to make logical sense in a game.  There are design choices that are made for gameplay reasons that trump realism.  You can still drink water from a water source.  You just can't carry it around.  Water was far too easy to get with jars.  I would have 100s in the first couple of days just from looting.  You could then fill those in a few seconds and never need water again for a very long time.  Nothing good about that, regardless of any realism.  I wasn't really a fan of the dew collector choice when it first came out, but they've improved it in 1.0.  You no longer need to buy a part to craft it and you have the option to buy and install 3 mods to make it much better.  The current version of dew collectors works really well, imo.  Could there be other options?  Sure.  Could some be better?  Probably.  But this is what we have, so rather than beating a dead horse over what has been in the game for a year already, just learn the new system and enjoy the game.  Being upset over it will just make the game less fun.  Even if you don't like it, accepting that it is how it is will make the game more enjoyable for you.  Just my two cents.

Yeah I missed the magazine at the traders’ forge, still ridiculous I have to find a magazine at this dudes forge to be able to learn how to make dew collectors to then wait on dirty water as opposed to utilizing the bodies of water on the map. I mean what is this? Dune spice wars??

Every broken workstation in the game (except dew collectors) has a good chance of giving you forge ahead magazines.  See a construction area?  Look for a cement mixer.  Look through garages and you'll likely find some workbenches.  These are some of the easiest ways to find forge ahead magazines.  But every trader has one of each broken workstation (except dew collectors), so you're almost guaranteed to get at least one forge ahead magazine from any trader, and potentially up to 4.

 

[zztong]

I’m on day 6 and still haven’t found the forge ahead magazine so I’m stuck with no dew collector it seems.

Yes, I agree it is not a natural way of thinking, thus confusing. As I said, the current water play isn't my favorite, but if you know what you're doing in the TFP version of reality it is quite playable.

Look for Destroyed Workbenches, Destroyed Forges, Destroyed Dew Collectors, Destroyed Cement Mixers, and Destroyed Chemistry Stations. You're likely to find 3-4 of those at a Trader out in their yard. Construction sites are good. Laboratories, for instance. Sometimes a garage. You only need 2 of those books to unlock the Dew Collector.

 

[meganoth]

The game is literally Minecraft with zombies no matter how you want to look at it lol.

I have played minecraft for an evening before losing interest. Does that mean that a few zombies are the only reason I played 7d2d for >2k hours?

And does that mean that minecraft is an "open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. The definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG"? Are there RPG elements in minecraft, is it first-person shooter, with tower defense?

Seriously, what do you expect when you ask about the vision of the developers? That they have to create a totally new genre with their game? 7days has a lot of unique elements, like the horde defense on every 7th day, a perk system you have never seen anywhere else, a weapon and armor system I have not seen anywhere else, lots of genres combined in one game,.... If you zoom out so far that 7d2d is just minecraft with different skins, then Skyrim is literally Borderlands with dragons

As for the other games I still don’t get how you can compare not being able to enter certain buildings to changing a whole water system in a game?

It is called an analogy. If you gloss over the details that may be different certain concepts are identical. In the mentioned cases the player is unrealistically hindered at doing something (entering a building, looting guns and ammo, getting water from a lake) for external reasons (costs, introducing difficulty, introducing difficulty). Ok, the gun analogy is better because the reasons are also similar.

 

[Verdigriss]

Yes, I agree it is not a natural way of thinking, thus confusing. As I said, the current water play isn't my favorite, but if you know what you're doing in the TFP version of reality it is quite playable.

Look for Destroyed Workbenches, Destroyed Forges, Destroyed Dew Collectors, Destroyed Cement Mixers, and Destroyed Chemistry Stations. You're likely to find 3-4 of those at a Trader out in their yard. Construction sites are good. Laboratories, for instance. Sometimes a garage. You only need 2 of those books to unlock the Dew Collector.

Oh, of coooourse, silly me, I was trying to get water by living near water, I should have known that in a survival game, to get water, you find a *magazine* in a *broken cement mixer*, and reading said magazine allows you to build a *dew collector*

Do you all really not realize how insane this sounds?

 

[Kartan]

I'm not convinced it's going to be received well even after players actually try it, having the jars just disappear and not be able to be used to fill up is the kind of thing that will just pull players out of the experience. Every time they go to drink it's just going to be like "Oh here's that thing the developers are making me do" rather than just being immersed in the survival aspect. In real life I can fill a jar or cup or whatever and boil it to make it drinkable, having the game literally bend reality to make that impossible won't feel good even if it functionally still works. 

IMO there are more simple, believable ways to achieve the dev's goals;

Make a glassblowing pipe required to craft jars and make it as rare/expensive as desired, like on par with a crucible. Now a forge + sand no longer equals infinite jars by day 3. Making the jars take longer to craft also would make bulk crafting take more commitment.

Have Tin Cans of water not stack anymore. Can't seal them, can't transport them efficiently. Logical and makes a player have to decide between inventory space or having water for travel without hindering them when rehydrating at base. Gives some player choice in how they want to manage their hydration in the early game.

Make most looted water be in tin cans (for murky) or in cracked jars (for pure) with cracked jars being lost when used, hydrating slightly less, and with a chance to cause a bit of damage. Intact jars could be somewhat rare loot that would be quite valuable for players who have yet to acquire a glassblowing pipe, slowly weaning off the need for inefficient cans of water.

I'm willing to give the new system a fair shake but I can't imagine it not feeling jarring (ha) whenever I need to manage my thirst meter and have to do so in these new somewhat roundabout ways.

Yeah exactly, instead of being immersed in this “survival” game im forced to use this whacked out mechanic the devs want to implement as if we’re on mars or something? They say it’s because water was too abundant early game, as if there aren’t a bunch of other ways to fix that and not be completely immersion breaking and ridiculous.

Oh, of coooourse, silly me, I was trying to get water by living near water, I should have known that in a survival game, to get water, you find a *magazine* in a *broken cement mixer*, and reading said magazine allows you to build a *dew collector*

Do you all really not realize how insane this sounds?

Right lmao? It’s a survival game and they want me to run away from the lake into a house to loot for dirty water that I can purify. You don’t have to play many games to see that’s absolutely ridiculous

 

[Javabean867]

Oh, of coooourse, silly me, I was trying to get water by living near water, I should have known that in a survival game, to get water, you find a *magazine* in a *broken cement mixer*, and reading said magazine allows you to build a *dew collector*

Do you all really not realize how insane this sounds?

You have all the water you can slurp up from the lake/stream/ditchpool.  What are you talking about?

Building dew collectors is the first thing you learn from reading the workbench magazines.  Those are found all over the world.  How could you be on day 6 without reading even 1 of those books?  Then you learn how to make a forge, workbench, etc.  It is easy, simple step that you are actively playing against.  Do you realize how crazy you sound?  "what do you mean i need a lockpick to open a locked safe???????????" or "grass should just teleport itself into my backpack" or "what do you mean i need to hold a button down to move????"  please, you spend more time being upset over glass jars not being in the game, then clicking 2 buttons.  1 to search, and 1 to read and then you can make dew collectors and your water needs will start to be handled.

 

[Kartan]

The initial WTF moment is something that I worry about. When played for the first time after the change was made I had no idea that it had happened. I was confused and a bit lost on how I was supposed to get enough water. At that time you could not drink from a water source yet either. So I asked someone what happened and found out about the change. I went back to the game and started working towards building my dew collector and after about an hour of playing never thought about jars again.

It will be a WTF first moment-- especially for those who don't follow the development announcements and so still have no idea about the change. There will be lots of posts from frustrated people asking how the heck they are supposed to get enough water. But I do have absolute confidence that within an hour of playing once understanding the change, people really won't think about it. The jars still exist but only in inventory to show units of liquid. Our imaginations fill in the rest. I assume there are empty jars but I just don't directly deal with them. They are glossed over. Never do I stop to agonize about a universe in which empty jars don't exist.

So...I think it will be a very interesting first couple of weeks on the forum with lots of posts by people who got used to it and absolutely love the water survival progression over the nonexistent water survival progression of before. There will also likely be every day someone new posting asking how to keep from always being thirsty and how to get water. There will be posts from those who didn't get past the adaptation process and decided right away they hate it and refuse to play it or try to get used to it. Some will call it innovative and unique and a fresh feeling compared to other survival titles they've played. Some will call it tedious and grindy and too long of a process to reach water abundance. Some will mod it back to how it was before ASAP.

This stuff is what makes early access so interesting to experience-- especially with a studio that experiments and iterates using public builds rather than behind closed doors. I'm pretty confident that in the end the vast majority will accept the change simply because the early game is more fun with it and just like everything else, crafting the solution to a problem is rewarding and we've already seen that people can and will bridge that abstraction gap with acid containers, gas cans, and stew bowls

I mean they could have gone the other way and ADDED containers for everything to make things even more immersive and allow us to Interact with more things instead of stripping it down to just barebone systems? And again they say it’s to combat water being too abundant early game as if there aren’t many better ways to do so?

 

[Kartan]

There are laptops you can't turn on at all (even though you have electricity). There are refrigerators you can't use. There are busses on the road but you will never be able to use or repair one for no reason at all. There are lakes but you can't even make a simple raft float on it. Do you question all that every time you play? I would assume you actually questioned all those limitations at least once. But then forgot about them completely for hundreds of hours of playtime and had no problem at all with accepting that for example there are just 5 vehicles you can build. That you can't have two people ride a minibike. That you can't just take a picture from a wall and move it to your base. That you can't trip a zombie.

There are so many limitations in this game and you will question them from time to time or make a joke about it. And a minute later have forgotten about them and simply accept them for the next hundred hours of playtime.

Another example: You may say (in talk with your friends for example) you filled up your minibike with gas **cans**, not with gas. But lets look at it more closely. To fill a minibike you need (??) 50 or 100 or 500 units of what the game shows as gas cans. It obviously can't be 500 gas cans you fill that single minibike with. Does that constantly throw you out of immersion? Surely not, in actual gameplay you simply think of **units** of gas you fill up the bike with. You don't **think** of there being gas cans, you only think of (units of) gas. 

You will never again notice jars as an existing entity, let alone Schrödinger Jars that disappear. You will simply think of water, just like you only think of gas or acid that you need to operate a vehicle or build a battery.

I am not talking about circumvention by experienced players looking for loopholes. I am talking about everyone simply having no water scarcity at all without any effort.

Maybe you did not specify your ideas in detail. Maybe in your mind you did all the other changes so that one of your ideas could really work to limit water sensibly. Maybe not. Just as listed by you the changes you listed in your first idea for example won't work, not without some other changes, maybe not at all. 

If you want we can make a simple test. Just take your first idea and list all the changes you would do to make it work for A20. If what you would have changed is all listed in that paragraph of yours above, say so. Otherwise add whatever else needs to be changed.

Then if I find something so water is not limited at all, or limited to unplayability, or anything else that does not align with what we know the devs want, I win the argument. If not, you win it.

Whether it will be fun for you that water is made scarce is quite a different matter. Net positive? No idea, that depends on the tastes of the majority of players this game has.

Everything you’ve mentioned has never once been possible in the game lmao. I’ve played this for years (on Xbox) with simple water mechanics like pretty much every survival game. Get dirty water- clean dirty water. Now they have removed this feature because they think water is too scarce? They want to be different and unique so bad they can’t share simple water mechanics with other games? Or a simple small water skin that takes a bunch of leather and leaks over time? Or one of the other dozens of suggestions made that make sense?

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Stop crying. It’s changed. Accept it, mod it, or don’t play.

 

[Kartan]

These two points were talked about/tried before the change. Back in the days of A16 and earlier, this could be done; but this just isn't feasible with the mass amount of POIs/cities/towns we have now. Unless a massive overhaul of removing jarred drinks/empty jar sources (e.g. only X amount of "that makes sense to have drink/jar loot in there" allowed per POI) and reworking the loot tables happens, it just won't prevent anyone from having hundreds of jars, which defeats any sort of survival. Even IF that was done, a 5% or lower chance is still a lot, when considering how many times you can roll to get that loot. It's feasible this way. 

Alright well there are many other ways to combat water being abundant in the start? You’re talking about jars in their old form lol they could’ve easily been turned into something else… a very expensive water skin that leaks over time doesn’t hold a lot, delicate jars that break, expensive canteen you need to craft/loot/buy? Getting water and purifying it is an essential part of any survival game and they want to be so unique and different here they have to change up the system completely to where I now have to loot houses for dirty water instead of utilizing the ponds and rivers around me. No matter how you put it, that’s ridiculous. Sure it slows water prevention at the start but so many other non immersion breaking ways could’ve achieved the same. Seems like the easy lazy way out

 

[Kartan]

You still collect water and boil it.  It just isn't collected at a water source like a lake or river.  It isn't meant to be realistic but to help water be more of a challenge rather than having all you'll ever need on day 1.  Considering you can drink right from the water source now, hydration isn't really changed.  It just isn't boiled if you drink it directly.  Water for drinking and cooking is not really a problem past the first day or two.  The only reason there is any issue is for people who use a lot of duct tape.

As far as the containers, I'm glad they are gone.  They were pointless, imo.  Even if you wanted the old method, there wasn't any need for having empty jars.  It could have easily been done without them.

Right, instead of getting water from the water I get water in single units from toilets and buildings. And if it’s meant to be more of a challenge they could’ve done a bunch of other things instead of stripping down the water system to a lazy barebones “unit” based system. Expensive 50-100 leather and a couple skills for a small waterksin? Expensive canteen you can craft/loot? How am I going to get an abundance of those on day 1? Just to name a couple options… so instead of being happy to find a stream, planning to live close to a water source, taking trips to get water and getting excited to find a better container, I have to farm dew collectors i run to and collect from as if that’s sooo intuitive and fun lol. I can have 6 dew collectors next to a swimming pool and have to run to each one and collect individually and the pool is totally useless. Soo groundbreaking and fun

Not necessarily. There is a wide spectrum of hydration survival and how it is represented across many different survival games. There are even survival games where thirst isn't differentiated from food at all. 7 Days to Die has no obligation to be just like any or even every survival game out there. The developers of some games just ignore water survival altogether. Other developers of other games put tons of detail into water survival to the point that it is basically a sim for hydrating the body. 7 Days to Die has chosen to make some aspects of hydration an abstraction. 

You don't have to like it but please just know that "any survival game" is not some bible for how particular survival games must depict thirst and drinking. There is a lot of wiggle room based on all the different ways different games choose to do it.

The game is a survival game set in the USA and they want me farming dew collectors and looting toilets for water instead of somehow purifying the natural water found on the land? Sure the devs don’t NEED to make the game any certain way, but we live on the planet the game takes place in. If they want some weird whacked out mechanics they should come up with some little planet this game takes place on so they can change how the world works. Because water is water. It’s meant to be purified, not harvested in whatever braindead manner the devs currently want us to

 

[Kartan]

I embraced it when it was announced during A21 development that I modded out glass jars (and tin cans) from A20 just to experience it before hand.  Haven't miss them since.

Why does logic only apply to glass jars but nobody had an issue with magical gas cans or oil bottles?  Where did all those plates and bowls go after we eat our food and where are they when we make them?

The thing is, you can make this game as complex or simple as you want through modding.  You can make it as realistically possible if you want to.

But if we are going to argue that something is not logical or realistic, then shouldn't it apply across the board?  How many people really want to plant corn seeds in Spring in game and then turn around and harvest it in the Fall? 

Could’ve implement any number of other suggested changes that make sense. Expensive containers, fragile ones, rare ones, anything. And yeah I agree there should be containers for everything, you should be able to pickup and interact with any item, but that would take a lot of work. Easier to strip away those things and give us barebone mechanics. The problem is water is water. No matter what they want it to be and if you’ve played any other survival game or watched any movie or tv shows that’s what people do. We purify dirty water. Devs are acting as if water in this game is some magic space dust we need to stay alive that can only be produced by certain methods lmao. No, unfortunately water is water so when my dudes thirsty I’m gonna look at the big BODY OF WATER and wonder why I can’t harvest and purify it. 

 

[RipClaw]

Stop crying. It’s changed. Accept it, mod it, or don’t play.

No need to be rude. The OP is apparently a console gamer. That means this is the first time he's encountered it. And it also means he can't mod anything.

I think it's still a valid criticism. Not that we can do anything about it but we can still debate what alternatives there could have been.