PC Getting rid of level gating

We had tried incremental costs in A16.
All it did was making progression more complicated, not deeper.

Gaining a new level, then being able to buy nothing with that reward because you are still saving for that one special OP perk - that's no fun.

We have toyed with many different approaches and ideas, like picking one core attribute and everything in "other" attributes costs 2 points. In the end we went with letting players decide what they want to do or be.
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Actually I love that every level gives you something to purchase. I think that works very well, that part of it.

I do feel like early/mid game I'm struggling to find points to put into things I want, as there's so many out there. I get to level 50, and I feel like I'm still a newbie, because even perking up "ok" in some areas, it means I can't delve into others at all. But this is not due to the way the system is setup, that's more because I feel we need some extra points.

What I would consider, is to maybe start the player off with an extra 10 skill points compared to now. Let me get some into the direction I want to go and not be a full green horn from the start, as the way I look at it, I start the game, I see all these cool perks, but it's gonna take me ages to progress down them to make any use of them at all. Giving me an extra 10 points I think wouldn't unbalance, but it would enhance as Icould make my "initial build" rather than be totally untrained in everything.

/V -

 
We had tried incremental costs in A16.
All it did was making progression more complicated, not deeper.

Gaining a new level, then being able to buy nothing with that reward because you are still saving for that one special OP perk - that's no fun.

We have toyed with many different approaches and ideas, like picking one core attribute and everything in "other" attributes costs 2 points. In the end we went with letting players decide what they want to do or be.
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Unless they want to craft thier tools or more advanved items earlier in the game. If somebody wants to spend thier points on unlocking crafting recipes they should bloody well be able to, thats specialisation and choice, not 'you cant have this untill level 20/50/100'

 
WHY dont we make Attributes not 10 lvls but 100 levels, and give 5 points per levelup, perks costing 5 points every time.

this means progress is half the speed its now (even slower to compensate specialisation) but you dont have levelgates anymore, only attribute gates.

So you still need 30 intelligence for the forge, but you can reach that by lvl 5 (with starting 5) and lvl 6 is the forge itself.

OR you go for packmule. Or whatever YOU feel is your priority.

If I want the forge day 1 and it is locked, I stray around the first day until i find a working forge or restart the game. But even then its not my favourite POI so my fun is gimped without reason. I still need leather and two iron pipes. I don't care if you lock me away out of 20% damage (I still think levelgates are annoying though but that is not something I would take that serious). But if you gimp my progress by saying "Nah not yet!".... I am honestly tempted to mod/edit the xmls... and I have never done that in all my alphas... because I wanna play multiplayer and liked the basegame.

 
WHY dont we make Attributes not 10 lvls but 100 levels, and give 5 points per levelup, perks costing 5 points every time.
this means progress is half the speed its now (even slower to compensate specialisation) but you dont have levelgates anymore, only attribute gates.

So you still need 30 intelligence for the forge, but you can reach that by lvl 5 (with starting 5) and lvl 6 is the forge itself.

OR you go for packmule. Or whatever YOU feel is your priority.

If I want the forge day 1 and it is locked, I stray around the first day until i find a working forge or restart the game. But even then its not my favourite POI so my fun is gimped without reason. I still need leather and two iron pipes. I don't care if you lock me away out of 20% damage (I still think levelgates are annoying though but that is not something I would take that serious). But if you gimp my progress by saying "Nah not yet!".... I am honestly tempted to mod/edit the xmls... and I have never done that in all my alphas... because I wanna play multiplayer and liked the basegame.
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May seem messy, but this concept has merit - you are essentially gated by points that you lack, instead of having points and not being able to spend them at what you want. It's obvious why this technical difference would change how negatively players would view gating.

However, I can't agree with the "forge at level 6" because I do enjoy the current progression rate.

 
However, I can't agree with the "forge at level 6" because I do enjoy the current progression rate.
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You DO realize, that ALL I have on lvl 6 is a forge and Iron tools right? While I wasn't the quickest (because I dont exploit zombie xp), level 6 should be day 4-5 so on day 4 you could have:

packmule, better bargaining to get better stuff at the trader (like iron tools weapons or armor), WAY more damage and knockdown to zombies, more staminaregen/10%less stun and hp or whatever you like!

What do you have with the forge? NOTHING! That is the tradeoff you have to make. It is a descicion. Can you keep up with 2 rows of inventory? I know I cant. So there are 6 skillpoints (right now not in my version) gone. 6 levels (well 1 level and 5 questreward points) to get back the rows of inventory.

I bet nobody will actually do this except for those who REALLY want a forge... and why stop them? They have to deal with a lot more trouble then those without a skilled forge (maybe a found one).

*edit* I still have a forge day 1 in my games. I just need to wander around aimlessly and find a stupid poi with a forge in it. Not much fun, but I want a forge.

 
You DO realize, that ALL I have on lvl 6 is a forge and Iron tools right? While I wasn't the quickest (because I dont exploit zombie xp), level 6 should be day 4-5 so on day 4 you could have: packmule, better bargaining to get better stuff at the trader (like iron tools weapons or armor), WAY more damage and knockdown to zombies, more staminaregen/10%less stun and hp or whatever you like!

What do you have with the forge? NOTHING! That is the tradeoff you have to make. It is a descicion. Can you keep up with 2 rows of inventory? I know I cant. So there are 6 skillpoints (right now not in my version) gone. 6 levels (well 1 level and 5 questreward points) to get back the rows of inventory.

I bet nobody will actually do this except for those who REALLY want a forge... and why stop them? They have to deal with a lot more trouble then those without a skilled forge (maybe a found one).

*edit* I still have a forge day 1 in my games. I just need to wander around aimlessly and find a stupid poi with a forge in it. Not much fun, but I want a forge.
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Note - would be the same if the player still got 1 point, with perks costing 1 point and attributes having 20 levels (everything /5). Concept is needing more points to get the attributes for a perk so that you are gated by points/attributes.

You do have a point that the player will have to spend all of his points towards the forge without getting any other very helpful perks. I can't really argue with that, but I think that it's still much more beneficial compared to other perk tree choices and that everyone (at least in SP) would probably rush it. Perhaps adding a schematic requirement for smithing iron (not rare), that will also slightly gate players (through some exploration) might be a decent idea, so that the choice of other perk trees is more lucrative at first but not essential. May be wrong about this though, haven't thought it through too much.

 
What if instead of attributes only unlocking perks, they actually provided a bonus? Like strength increase would increase damage in melee, agility increase would increase ranged damage, intelligence increase would increase crafting speed. And actual perks stay limited by attribute level, but there's no actual character level gate.

Put all your points into melee and unlock melee-based perks to become a brawler that can't build a forge or workbench, but can OHK weaker zombies with a club, and can power-attack OHK mid-range zombies like Bertha and Edgar.

Or go full intelligence and unlock various engineering perks but remain weak with weapons.

Or go full agility and have Deadeye's aim but be fragile when in melee range.

Or mix and match to have the current A17 experience.

I'll make a mod for this.

 
What if instead of attributes only unlocking perks, they actually provided a bonus? Like strength increase would increase damage in melee, agility increase would increase ranged damage, intelligence increase would increase crafting speed. And actual perks stay limited by attribute level, but there's no actual character level gate.
Put all your points into melee and unlock melee-based perks to become a brawler that can't build a forge or workbench, but can OHK weaker zombies with a club, and can power-attack OHK mid-range zombies like Bertha and Edgar.

Or go full intelligence and unlock various engineering perks but remain weak with weapons.

Or go full agility and have Deadeye's aim but be fragile when in melee range.

Or mix and match to have the current A17 experience.

I'll make a mod for this.
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The attributes already DO provide bonuses as far as im aware...

Specialisations is a cool concept but the game still needs to be playable on single player regardless of perk choices, personally i consider the ability to craft items and tools a core part of the game. To fit the description of a 'survival horde crafting game' atm it feels more like 'sometimes survival, horde, sometimes crafting game'

 
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I wonder how an extra specialization layer on top of something like this existing system would play? From just thinking about it, it seems like it would alleviate a lot of the play-style related complaints with it.

To throw out an example of what I mean:

When you start the game and after you finish all the starter survival quests - you get some specialization points and can create a specialization profile for your character. These points are different from the current skill points in that they affect the XP rate, level-related unlocks, and possibly some unique (but relatively minor) bonuses of that particular specialization.

So as an example - a builder who prefers building very early - could specialize as a builder. This would grant him building-related unlocks faster than someone who picked zombie slayer or miner or ninja or looter, etc

A builder's skill tree may only need to be level 5 to unlock a forge, while a zombie slayer may need to be level 20 to get that forge. Specialization could potentially have a positive effect on allowing various playstyles to play how they want earlier while also providng more unique playthroughs and character builds.

Everyone could still get to the same place and have the same things (aside from maybe some minor specialization bonuses) but each character can get to specific areas faster and earn XP most efficiently at least at first in that selected specialization.

I don't know - just throwing it out there.

 
I wonder how an extra specialization layer on top of something like this existing system would play? From just thinking about it, it seems like it would alleviate a lot of the play-style related complaints with it.
To throw out an example of what I mean:

When you start the game and after you finish all the starter survival quests - you get some specialization points and can create a specialization profile for your character. These points are different from the current skill points in that they affect the XP rate, level-related unlocks, and possibly some unique (but relatively minor) bonuses of that particular specialization.

So as an example - a builder who prefers building very early - could specialize as a builder. This would grant him building-related unlocks faster than someone who picked zombie slayer or miner or ninja or looter, etc

A builder's skill tree may only need to be level 5 to unlock a forge, while a zombie slayer may need to be level 20 to get that forge. Specialization could potentially have a positive effect on allowing various playstyles to play how they want earlier while also providng more unique playthroughs and character builds.

Everyone could still get to the same place and have the same things (aside from maybe some minor specialization bonuses) but each character can get to specific areas faster and earn XP most efficiently at least at first in that selected specialization.

I don't know - just throwing it out there.
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Not bad suggestions, never made much sense to me that our charcters have skills ect and yet everyone starts equally dumb as tree stumps (cant boil an egg in this alpha without leveling up)

Some starter attribute points make for more intresting choices for the player to make, even fallout has you making major charcter decisions at the start of the game as well as each level up.

These sort of choices give more replay value to the game too, which all these mechanics to slow the game down left us with a crippling lack of. Going through the same leveling grind each game isnt fun, somthing unquie and dynamic each time a new game gets started? Im on board.

 
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