PC Game level based spawns make the game predictable and removes a sense of discovery

[bdubyah]

For the record, I would love zones of greater and lesser difficulty and more randomness in what we might find in each POI.

This. There needs to be some areas, hell at least just certain POIs that are way harder, even on Day 1. Like, you can't possibly get through it on Day 1 hard.

I also think more zombie types, along with limiting what can be in each POI would be nice as well. Seems weird that you can get zombie strippers and cheerleaders coming out of both a Shotgun Messiah factory and the basic cabin at the same time. Lol.

 

[meganoth]

This. There needs to be some areas, hell at least just certain POIs that are way harder, even on Day 1. Like, you can't possibly get through it on Day 1 hard.
I also think more zombie types, along with limiting what can be in each POI would be nice as well. Seems weird that you can get zombie strippers and cheerleaders coming out of both a Shotgun Messiah factory and the basic cabin at the same time. Lol.

The strippers and cheerleaders were in the Shotgun Messiah factory for the shooting of a weapons commercial when the apocalypse came. Totally legit.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the top of that factory and the skyscrapers proof of harder areas already in the game? If you go there in mid game you will get glowing while down in the factory ground floor you will get mostly workers.

So the ability is there, just maybe a little too subtle.

 

[FA_Q2]

The strippers and cheerleaders were in the Shotgun Messiah factory for the shooting of a weapons commercial when the apocalypse came. Totally legit.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the top of that factory and the skyscrapers proof of harder areas already in the game? If you go there in mid game you will get glowing while down in the factory ground floor you will get mostly workers.

So the ability is there, just maybe a little too subtle.

Go to the top on day one. Don't think you are even going to get a feral let alone a radiated.

There are some spawns that are more likely to be stronger enemies but as far as I can tell they are also all tied to game stage.

 

[meganoth]

Go to the top on day one. Don't think you are even going to get a feral let alone a radiated.
There are some spawns that are more likely to be stronger enemies but as far as I can tell they are also all tied to game stage.

Sure, but that is a result of the effect being too weak and a small number of zombie difficultiy steps. And on day 1-2 even reaching top levels would be very difficult for the average player. Probably TFP will not invest much time to surprise experienced players on a speed-run. :smile-new:

 

[FA_Q2]

Sure, but that is a result of the effect being too weak and a small number of zombie difficultiy steps. And on day 1-2 even reaching top levels would be very difficult for the average player. Probably TFP will not invest much time to surprise experienced players on a speed-run. :smile-new:

The point is that it is not difficult to reach the top on day one - it is a walk in the park because there is noting but standard zeds. They do not pose a threat to a sleeping player - low levels against them are not all that relevant.

A SG HQ should be impossible to scale in the early game. Of course, changes would need to be made on leveled loot as well - it retains the same issues that leveled difficulty does.

 

[dex314]

I don't disagree with you dex but I do wonder how much of the problem is simply because of our knowledge about how it all works.

Hey Roland, thanks for pitching in! I understand what you mean, but the issue isn't limited to our knowledge of the system. The concept of gamestage based spawns will continually result with emergent issues. I've listed two minor ones here and then will address the biggie:

1. In early game, pairing up with a high level who is teaching you the ropes or just a friend you want to loot with will scale the enemies too high, rendering you useless. A higher level player should be able to HELP a lower level player. By entering the poi with them, you do more harm than good and place them at greater risk. This is noticeable and destroys immersion that what you find inside was predicted, rather than explored.

2. You can accelerate your game stage disproportionately to the game's algorithm for increased difficulty. I may be a high level, and may have looted really good gear, but that doesn't mean i have the production capabilities to sustain the high ammo drain of 20 green ferals in every house. This is definitely noticed, and in general is a flawed way to generate difficulty since it mandates complete combat readiness for any player wanting to enter even the easiest of pois.

I admin two of the larger PVE servers (30-40 player caps) and keep track of how long it takes before people stop playing post-end game. I understand that scaling difficulty was meant to prolong game time, but it is having the exact opposite effect. Our servers cleared out faster in a17 than any other time (I started in 11.5). The reason is because at end game you have house after house after house of 20 green ferals that are absolute bullet sponges. Not only is it predictable, but it is monotonous, grindy, and overall frustrating. Games like LFD2 and KF2 are great because there are hard zombies, but there are lots of weak ones you can pop for your personal satisfaction. Hordes of greens everywhere you go renders late game very taxing. Furthermore, since the decreased barter sale prices, we can't maintain a strong wallet like in a16 that we typically used to complement our ammo supplies--that combined with other changes and it becomes excessively costly to explore the map (but as to my other point, it doesnt feel like exploration because you know what will be in every house) and deal with looting. It's far more work than play, and while work is part of a survival game, it's proven too much for our casual players.

Overall, or all in all, which ever, the player scaling system is creating a very boring and repetitive endgame that forces us to live a grindy lifestyle in order to maintain it. We only were able to circumvent the attrition rate by adding copious amounts of mods.

I feel like you might suggest lowering the server difficulty to make the end game less bullet spongy, but then it renders the early game too easy.

I have complained about things in the past, but i sincerely mean it when I say that keeping the gamestage player scaling for spawns is a serious long term mistake. Please please take this to heart. At the very least, increase the quantity of normal walker zombies, rather than the difficulty of every spawn. By that i mean, make late game have 2x more zombie spawns, and fewer greens. THey're boring and grindy to fight over and over and over again, especially in close quarters. I hope this all made sense. thank again for sticking with all of our posts throughout these years. Please make us proud

 

[meganoth]

The point is that it is not difficult to reach the top on day one - it is a walk in the park because there is noting but standard zeds. They do not pose a threat to a sleeping player - low levels against them are not all that relevant.

Well, people have wildly different skills. When our co-op group started a new game about 2 weeks ago I cleaned a single 2 storey building on the first day after having done the initial quests. I nearly got killed and finished a few minutes before night-fall (i.e. 22:00). Now nearly getting killed was probably because I was still used to sledgehammer reach and not getting the right distance for the club at that moment. Combine that with being out of stamina immediately in melee combat and you will understand that I had to draw them out instead of battling with them in close quarter inside.

With that in mind I don't think I would be able to get through dishong tower in one day as a lvl1 player, with all the close quarter combat and low stamina. I probably would need two days and the chances to get killed before reaching the top wouldn't be negligible. Mmmmh, maybe I should make a real test to find out exactly how difficult it is.

I believe you if you say it is a walk in the park for you. I doubt it would be for a lot of players.

 

[FA_Q2]

Well, people have wildly different skills. When our co-op group started a new game about 2 weeks ago I cleaned a single 2 storey building on the first day after having done the initial quests. I nearly got killed and finished a few minutes before night-fall (i.e. 22:00). Now nearly getting killed was probably because I was still used to sledgehammer reach and not getting the right distance for the club at that moment. Combine that with being out of stamina immediately in melee combat and you will understand that I had to draw them out instead of battling with them in close quarter inside.
With that in mind I don't think I would be able to get through dishong tower in one day as a lvl1 player, with all the close quarter combat and low stamina. I probably would need two days and the chances to get killed before reaching the top wouldn't be negligible. Mmmmh, maybe I should make a real test to find out exactly how difficult it is.

I believe you if you say it is a walk in the park for you. I doubt it would be for a lot of players.

Valid point. I doubt I would be able to *clear* the HQ that fast at that level. Just to many zeds. Of course, you can just scale the side of the building

 

[asmosnuts]

Numbers and types of zombie are the biggest detriment atm by day 30ish when the greeny spitty fest begins, its a war of attrition that few can be bothered with. As stated it just becomes a grind and the game is done.

Much rather have a "clear the map house by house scenario" with proper hordes of mostly norm zombies than face yet another radiated bullet sponge showdown.

How about find or make a rare rad suit to escape the map? A rad proof gyro to fly away?

There have to be better ideas for longevity/ending than increased numbers of radiated/special dull grindy foes.

 

[Morloc]

I don't often agree with RIP, but when I do he says this:

The world feels more artificial and predictable with level scaling. We would be better off with a multi-layered zone scaling system with large RNG fluctuations.

+1

-Morloc

 

[Damocles]

I also agree that the game should determine difficulty and loots-quality by regions.

Basically: easy suburbs (houses), medium difficulty small towns, hard citycenters and military installations. Dangerous areas and more resources when far from the road in the outback.

The horde night itself probably needs some kind of scaling independent of region. But that can be considered kind of plausible, as its a special event.

 

[Khulkhuum]

Changing the difficulty to region would be pretty interesting and at the same time tough to push into the game. Spawning would have to be limited to specific locations (maybe it IS easy to change how it generates to make it pop up only in tier 1 regions) and any higher tier regions should be further from the spawn or placed in a manner you have the option to travel to a tier +1 region instead of only having +2 or more around you. On the other hand, it could always be easy to run through the higher tier regions (if you don't want to stay in them), yet looting POIs or indulging Zs in them would be fatal.

A similar concept is in Terraria, where different biomes are way more difficult at the start. You spawn in regular forest, going underground is a bit more difficult, but snow biome is on par as underground with enemies hitting harder and being more diverse. Evil biome (crimson or corruption) is way more difficult, bringing harder enemies and ones that pester you in new ways, at the same time giving new items you could use for crafting (and new loot in various "pots" and chests). Similarly the desert introduces fast and deadly enemies. Jungle is even more dangerous, enemies poisoning you at every corner, most of them flying around and shooting, yet if you wade yourself through it and gather necessary materials fast you can get the best gear at the time. Ofcourse, if you progress with making gear through each biome and go to the jungle last, it's easier yet still posing a threat, so the progression is still there regardless how fast you explore. Additionally, if you're skilled enough you can just run past each of those difficult areas.

I have already posted in another thread how i would like 7DTD to shift from gamestage calculated based on level and instead change to something else. My suggestions focused on substituting level number with a time counter, zombie kills counter or any mix between the three (time, kills and level).

P.S. Love the suggestion about min and max gamestage per POI. This would solve a great deal of problems, including loot, too weak and too strong zombies, as well as allow players to decide where to explore with the current mechanics - if you don't kill the sleepers and they despawn when you run away, you could get back there at a later time when you're stronger, but also explore weaker POIs late game, craving some basic supplies and easy challenge.

 

[Deadalready]

I find myself strongly agreeing with OP, one of the major problems I've had with 7 days is late game is essentially the same as early game - despite the fact the player has more tools and better ones too.

In contrast to other games, the attraction of late game is the amount of options and the freedom of choice allowed. You go from extended fights using with a club to using a lightning storm to insta fry dozens of enemies or perhaps pull out the sniper rifle and can one shot dozens of enemies, or perhaps pull out one of many other dozen tools for a cathartic release to enjoy the power/finances you've worked so hard to unlock.

7 days however seems to believe that players want early game to feel exactly the same as late game, never allowing us to "eat our cake".

It seems stupid to me, that the higher level I am - the longer and more difficult it is for me to clear an area. If I could compare to Minecraft - there are distinctive points of personal advancement in that game that become so rewarding. You go from terrible tools and manually having to deal with each survival issue, to eventually automating some of those processes and instead being freed to pursue other aspects of the game, to eventual full creative freedom to explore, play and build wantonly just for the sake of it. Personally I've always had problems with 7days early game being the pretty much the same as late game. There's very little to no automation, which would free us up to evolve our pursuits in game.

I had MAJOR PROBLEMS with 16.4's spawning more than 17 personally. I reached a point where every location was filled with dozens of respawning radiated policemen and seemingly it didn't matter how many times I shot them in the head, it became impossible for me to kill them before they blew up the building. The additional salt in the wound was because you HAD to back off from them (who the hell is going to stand near a policeman) was many policemen would respawn once they blew up or were killed. So I had infinite respawning policemen destroying the buildings pushing me out of the POI.

 

[beHypE]

The biggest gripe overall for me isn't the fact that the zombies toughness scales with my own power (even though it's probably over the top), but moreso that location/POIs don't affect it nearly enough.

This isn't an issue that is specific to A17 though. There has ALWAYS been a problem (and it has been voiced a lot over the years) with the way zombies get populated throughout the world, and how biomes had different difficulty settings (think plains versus wasteland) but litterally the same rewards.

I really think the game would be in a much better state if it were closer to the vision of one of the first posts of this thread; basically, looting small and/or isolated shacks should be "easy" but pack small rewards on average (with the occasional god-tier find to keep it interesting obviously, RNG is king even if we hate it sometimes), and should become harder as you move towards more crowded/specific places. There really isn't enough of a difficulty ramp-up between looting a basic house in the middle of nowhere filled with sleepers, and looting the hospital of Diersville, and that is a big problem in itself. All the stores that contain specific loot (Shamway food, Shotgun Messiah, Working Stiff Tools etc) should be extremely well guarded because those are actual gold mines compared to random houses, especially ever since the dungeon system (which is a nice addition don't get me wrong) made looting houses 10 times slower and more dangerous.

And also, each biome should have a meaningful purpose. There's literally no reason for me to go to the snow biome or the burnt forest right now, and there never has been. And it's a huge gameplay issue.

Oh and yeah, obviously, I miss my first ever playthrough (I think it was A11) where I entered a huge city and got absolutely demolished by cops, dogs and bees. Right now, cities are a walk in the park, there isn't nearly enough threat going to one early game. It makes the progression of scavenging meaningless because the best strategy Day 1 (unless you play nomad) is to setup close to a big city where you have a lot of supplies at hand. That shouldn't be a viable strategy early game, or at least at the cost of very defavorable odds.

 

[Aerial]

The biggest gripe overall for me isn't the fact that the zombies toughness scales with my own power (even though it's probably over the top), but moreso that location/POIs don't affect it nearly enough.
This isn't an issue that is specific to A17 though. There has ALWAYS been a problem (and it has been voiced a lot over the years) with the way zombies get populated throughout the world, and how biomes had different difficulty settings (think plains versus wasteland) but litterally the same rewards.

I really think the game would be in a much better state if it were closer to the vision of one of the first posts of this thread; basically, looting small and/or isolated shacks should be "easy" but pack small rewards on average (with the occasional god-tier find to keep it interesting obviously, RNG is king even if we hate it sometimes), and should become harder as you move towards more crowded/specific places. There really isn't enough of a difficulty ramp-up between looting a basic house in the middle of nowhere filled with sleepers, and looting the hospital of Diersville, and that is a big problem in itself. All the stores that contain specific loot (Shamway food, Shotgun Messiah, Working Stiff Tools etc) should be extremely well guarded because those are actual gold mines compared to random houses, especially ever since the dungeon system (which is a nice addition don't get me wrong) made looting houses 10 times slower and more dangerous.

And also, each biome should have a meaningful purpose. There's literally no reason for me to go to the snow biome or the burnt forest right now, and there never has been. And it's a huge gameplay issue.

Oh and yeah, obviously, I miss my first ever playthrough (I think it was A11) where I entered a huge city and got absolutely demolished by cops, dogs and bees. Right now, cities are a walk in the park, there isn't nearly enough threat going to one early game. It makes the progression of scavenging meaningless because the best strategy Day 1 (unless you play nomad) is to setup close to a big city where you have a lot of supplies at hand. That shouldn't be a viable strategy early game, or at least at the cost of very defavorable odds.

+1

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[xXBadDreamXx]

i think everyone is putting great ideas out there . not holding my breath on any of this however because this isnt how fallout works.

 

[Khulkhuum]

I like how Project Zomboid manages loot. I hope some day we will be finding appropriate items in appropriate containers like garbage in garbage, food in cupboards, clothes in drawers, money and valuables in safes, medical supplies in medical cabinets, etc. Sure there are some multi-purpose containers that might have practically anything in them (covering some items that wouldn't fit to be found anywhere else), but that spoils the exploration a bit imho.

In PZ if you want some really specific items, you have to find appropriate buildings: building tools and components in garages, sheds and hardware stores. Car associated tools in car repair stations and sometimes hardware stores. Very rarely will you find in regular houses axes, saws, screwdrivers or car tire pumps. These are very specific items for specific tasks, just like you won't find tools and clothes in a fridge.

Diversifying the loot and making some items specific to a number of POIs (some of which could be found only in specific biomes) would also enhance the gameplay, making players venture further. I have seen mods that try to tackle this problem (A16 ComSenMod specifically sorted out loot under zombies and that found in containers, but surely there are more mods).

I think it's on par as zombie HP/XP gain problem, where some zombies have a lot higher HP but give the same XP as some weaker ones. One of the many things to tidy up at some point.

 

[Damocles]

From the developers side they could offer those things for modders:

#1 offer a game option called “fixed enemy levels”

#2 have an option in the prefabs.xml (rwg output) to set the fixed POIs enemy level and loot quality level

With those two things it would be easy to create a region based difficulty in the game world. .. and let those two design philosophies compete against each other.

I could easily write a world generator that supports region based difficulty scaling.

 

[Khulkhuum]

From the developers side they could offer those things for modders:
#1 offer a game option called “fixed enemy levels”

#2 have an option in the prefabs.xml (rwg output) to set the fixed POIs enemy level and loot quality level

With those two things it would be easy to create a region based difficulty in the game world. .. and let those two design philosophies compete against each other.

I could easily write a world generator that supports region based difficulty scaling.

I think there is another option really. Create a few sets of current zombies with different HP and assign the appropriate sets to specific biomes. A lot of work sure, but coding the zombies (as new entities) and assigning to new groups would be easy. The biggest work would be to assign specific groups in place of the current zombies. The zombies wouldn't even have to look different (have any color tinge or something), simply be easier variants, unless you want to distinguish them somehow.

EDIT: Okay, i take that back, but not entirely. There are quite a lot entity groups and many entities, adding even one set would be a lot of work. It would be easier to simply sort and reassing appropriate zombies according to their "difficulty" among many groups (some of which are associated with biomes through words added to their names like "ZombiesWastelandNight"). First though, they need their HP and XP received adjusted for different progression "tiers".

 

[Pr00ch]

OP has a point, it really does make the game feel a lot less rewarding and satisfying as far as looting goes. The world advancing as the player does also kind of gets you stuck in limbo, nothing really changes. You don't feel that you're becoming stronger, which is kind of a big element in this type of game. If you don't have that, why have stats at all? It's all just nominal changes without anything real behind it.