PC Game feels like its punishing me for levelling up

As far as I know Legendary items will not be craftable. They are items that already have a permanent mod attached to them that gives them a special ability or extra damage etc. Neither the mod nor the weapon will have a recipe in the game. You just have to find it or get it as a quest reward.

 
I like what you posted but I don't believe that it applies completely to 7 Days to Die. True, this game is heading in an RPG direction but it is in no way an RPG. It is a hybrid game that includes RPG elements. It is also a survival game and a survival game needs to have elements that can legitimately threaten survival so that risk of death is real. Progressing in such a way that you can remain ahead of the threat curve makes for a very boring survival game.
The way I see the balance needing to be is a leapfrog model between player and game. The player starts weak and the game starts strong. then the player progresses and catches up and maybe surpasses the game threats for a short time. But then the game leapfrogs ahead in difficulty so the player must once again be wise and careful because they can again die. The player once again progresses to the point of meeting the game threats and then surpassing them but then the game jumps ahead again. And so on.

I think this sort of model would agree best with the RPG/survival hybrid game we are playing. You get to progress to meet the threats but then new threats once again put your survival into jeopardy so you must continue to progress.
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Roland,

I like your points and you have some good points as well. I completely agree that in any stage of the game you should have threats capable of wiping you out, its just that maybe we slightly disagree on the progression path. That said, some of my ideas I've posted here and there which actually basically agree with you in other topics. Here's an example progression path for a fun experience of 7D2D as I envision it (hey who knows, I can dream)

-> Starting off. Difficult. everything is hard

-> progress, regular zombies easy. green rads popping up, difficult to kill them.

-> further progress - now green zombies are pretty easy.

-> You're now well established. All POI's are easy, even greens rads.

-> Next progression path is start clearing all towns in preparation for large scale bandit raids. you must build up your colony and be smart in planning. Bandit raids are tough, harder than blood moons, even at level 300 with best equipment you could easily die if you didn't hire the right / sufficient NPC's, or have a good enough defense.

-> After a while on this path you get more upgrades, then this starts getting easier. you'll also starting raiding their bases soon to clear them off the map.

-> Now (if this is Story Mode) you progress to the "radiated" zone. Now, you face new threats. These threats are zombies even worse than radiated (Mutated, due to being at ground zero). You also now face worse than bandits... Military troops, possibly even with vehicles and attack choppers etc.. (Hey, now the RPG will get some love).

-> Once again, lots of good new loot, POI's, upgrades. Eventually ev en these guys are easy

-> Last part of story - find ground zero, clear the source, find the cure. The zombies near here are even HARDER, and give even end-game loot players some difficulty at least until you find yet even better upgrades. Also possibly one more upgrade to the "human" enemies. This would be the most brutal zone capable of wiping out the most geared of players especially on Insane but would also boast the best loot and upgrades.

-> If you choose to continue on "story mode" maybe they could have an "epilogue" mode which is now you start trying to colonize the radiated area, and now defend your colonies against the brutal zombies there or something

This would basically follow your "Leap Frog" progression that you speak of, and yes, many games follow this path of progression, which does make the most sense IMO, so I'm on board with it, at least depending upon how it is executed.

My vision for "Sandbox Mode" which is the free play / RWG, would simply be infinite progression (hey I can dream once again right?) with progressively difficult zombies and progressively better loot ad - infinitum.

Perhaps it would almost be like New Game Plus. Like, you "Clear" the map, and start over... but keep your loot and levels, and the next map is harder. And harder. And harder. Infinite replay value... mmm :p To "clear" a map you would have to colonize most or even all the towns, and defeat most or all the bandits in that map.

 
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Ya know... It'd be pretty cool to have a Int Spec item for around lvl 5 int, that can only be built, not purchased, that was a gas powered turret. Not super high damage. Uses arrows or maybe an alternative craftable. But adds to a builder/crafter DPS output. That automatically only targets zombies and animals. Maybe does 15 damage and shoots roughly as fast as a bow.

Or maybe gun mod that only works if the user had 5 or 6 in Int. like a shock mod or something.

 
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Ya know... It'd be pretty cool to have a Int Spec item for around lvl 5 int, that can only be built, not purchased, that was a gas powered turret. Not super high damage. Uses arrows or maybe an alternative craftable. But adds to a builder/crafter DPS output. That automatically only targets zombies and animals. Maybe does 15 damage and shoots roughly as fast as a bow.
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I'd be interested in a "modular" turret. One which you can install ANY gun of your choice. Yes, even rockets. Why not? Lol

Also, be nice if we can upgrade turrets. They seem pretty weak against greens. Probably because I'm pretty sure turrets are basically "un upgraded" shotguns and rifles, like the damage you would do at level 1. So in order to really get the damage output you'd like to see (at least on higher difficulties) you have to build an obscene amount of them. We actually did that with a friend of mine and it was somewhat effective (With high loot count so we could craft the ammo for it), but the problem is, the LAG. Even with a high end PC, too many turrets (especially auto turrets) make your FPS go to single digits.

 
I'd be interested in a "modular" turret. One which you can install ANY gun of your choice. Yes, even rockets. Why not? Lol
Also, be nice if we can upgrade turrets. They seem pretty weak against greens. Probably because I'm pretty sure turrets are basically "un upgraded" shotguns and rifles, like the damage you would do at level 1.
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I edited my post a bit but maybe Int Gated Mods are a way to go. Though when it comes to turrets, even in A16 I'd typically use at least 4 to cover an area. Course. Paper was a little easier to come by. 🤷🏻

I don't know about modular though. Seems like a balance nightmare.

 
As far as I know Legendary items will not be craftable. They are items that already have a permanent mod attached to them that gives them a special ability or extra damage etc. Neither the mod nor the weapon will have a recipe in the game. You just have to find it or get it as a quest reward.
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hmm... well, I can live with that, -if- (please, please rnjebus) they're _repairable_!!

Empyrion went down the ugly rabbit hole of making their Legendary Weapons -non-repairable, and frankly, that just sucked o_0

One thing I think is worth mentioning is SP vs MP balance for these.

In SP if I find/earn one, yay, I've got X, wee!

But in MP there are always gonna be a handful of folks with the green dragon in their blood (jealousy). Now I get that TFPs can't & shouldn't let that single factor be a significant factor; we're all supposedly adults right?

(sry, let me catch my breath... hehehehe wheezzee!)

Point being that, just guessing of course, the abundance needed to satisfy MP could result in the more hard core SPs winding up with a lot of extras.

Anyway, appreciate the info Roland :)

 
1) I just -really- hope they don't put themselves in the same fugly Legendary Loot/Weapons box that Empyrion did.

2) I personally think that Legendary Recipes would be a solid reward. So Shotgun Factory might have a wicked semi-auto, Legenday shotgun recipe.

3) Definately do -not- want to see Tier 5/6 Schematic's as rewards/requirements for Legendary Weapons; that's basically #1, but would be much worse in 7dtd due the point cost required to make a T5/6 schematic.

But full disclosure; I really don't like Schematics as a single-use, must have to make X item.

This is the perfect emoticon for how I feel about being able to make something, then, as -soon- as I finished making it, I -completely!- forgot how!! :frusty:

heh :party:
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As far as I know Legendary items will not be craftable. They are items that already have a permanent mod attached to them that gives them a special ability or extra damage etc. Neither the mod nor the weapon will have a recipe in the game. You just have to find it or get it as a quest reward.
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True it doesn't make sense. Single-use schematics might as well be a rare material.

As for legendary items, even if the game really needs more rare chase items, I don't really think they would offer much. Eventually, they will become the new standard, the novelty will wear off, complaints would come up about enemies not being able to keep up or the game being too easy (considering leg. items are more powerful version of already existing weapons), enemies will have to be adjusted further etc etc... There are many more possibilities for chase items that can also be utility/qol/survival-related.

As for scaling, what to say. Level scaling, in general, is the devil. What I would enjoy more, is a map with mixed difficulty zones with different lootlists. That would take care of the gating for most items in the game. And exploration tech gating is better than level tech gating. And perhaps some soft level scaling in the form of e.g. more specials, instead of glowing bullet sponge copies. In the case of the BM horde, level scaling is a necessary evil, but I would like it to factor in global time (with a soft cap). I know that these things are never going to happen but oh well.

 
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Another option is to have long-term threats.

For example, there could be radiation damage that is hard to avoid getting in small amounts, but you can't heal from it. Once a player get to the point where they can reliabliy survive a fight with zombies, avoiding hard-to-avoid radiation would become a priority, keeping the player from getting complacent without actually making the game harder.

The seven-day horde works as a great long-term threat; I was well-equipped to survive today, but I need to proactively become stronger if I want to survive the blood moon. The issue is that after the first few, the seven-day hordes become routine and it becomes less a question of survivial and more a question of resource efficency. That's why I think the blood moon difficulty spikes should be fractal; Every 7 horde nights, you get a super blood moon, the difficulty of surviving it compared to a regular blood moon, being what a blood moon is compared to surviving a regular night.

I hope tying the game's difficulty directly to the player level is a quick-fix sort of mechanic that will be replaced as the game gets improved.

 
Another option is to have long-term threats.For example, there could be radiation damage that is hard to avoid getting in small amounts, but you can't heal from it. Once a player get to the point where they can reliabliy survive a fight with zombies, avoiding hard-to-avoid radiation would become a priority, keeping the player from getting complacent without actually making the game harder.

The seven-day horde works as a great long-term threat; I was well-equipped to survive today, but I need to proactively become stronger if I want to survive the blood moon. The issue is that after the first few, the seven-day hordes become routine and it becomes less a question of survivial and more a question of resource efficency. That's why I think the blood moon difficulty spikes should be fractal; Every 7 horde nights, you get a super blood moon, the difficulty of surviving it compared to a regular blood moon, being what a blood moon is compared to surviving a regular night.

I hope tying the game's difficulty directly to the player level is a quick-fix sort of mechanic that will be replaced as the game gets improved.
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No to that idea of radiation damage that cannot be healed. Would become annoying very quick. If you can't heal from it even after dying doesn't it just become a timer to a guaranteed death everytime? If it can be removed by death, won't someone just kill themselves to remove it?

I hear horde night settings can be modified in an upcoming patch so if you want more frequent horde nights (eg, daily) you can have them. I can assure having daily horde nights will deplete your resources quicker and force you back into survival mode.

No need for a super horde night. They could however add a boss-like zombies like in the Starvation mod. There is a boss/super unique zombie that rezzes dead zombies (a very fun idea) and one that has some an aura that debuffs you.

 
Give me some of the original Dayz bandits that spawn in random spots, are tough as hell, and drop great loot. Bandit bases, etc. Oh, and I still want LBD back.

 
I didn't miss the point I just disagree with it. It's simply not my experience, and I am nearly level 200 current play-through. I felt progression was, and is, completely linear and has been from level 1. I never felt a spike in difficulty or number of rads, it all felt linear to me. Who's right?
Having said that, I play co-op mostly and thus have been combat-specced since level 1. Of course it felt linear to me. If you are actually saying the problem is the poor sod that has to spec Int or the poor sod playing solo - and it is their difficulty that is V-shaped, then yes I agree, always have, but that is a completely different balance issue from "too many rads too soon, wah wah". There are not too many rads too soon for me. Not by a long chalk. Difficulty progression is just fine - and linear - for a combat-specced character.
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The issue is that you have to play game a certain way - at least the beginning part. I really enjoy the game's sandbox feeling. In A16, I explored POIs by day, and built my base at night. The A17 approach, at least at the starting to mid game stage, feels more like a straitjacket. I don't need to lower the difficulty, but I do need to follow a specific plan. I play on my friends server, but this playthrough I did my own thing and my base is 2 KM away from theirs, so it was pretty close to solo play. When my friends reset our server, I'm probably going to do a nomad style playthrough. I probably won't put any puts in intelligence to start off with and instead rely on traders to get stuff I can't craft. Instead i'll put points into making myself a tank first, exploit the fact that most loot is on the rooftops of POIs, nerdpole up, get the goods, kill the zombies, rinse and repeat. Do horde night on roofs of POIs. Once I've reached a certain level, then I can finally put points in int, throw down a base, and then go back to explore POIs by day, base build at night. So the game is definitely doable and now I know what I need to do, but dislike the lack of freedom (at least in the early to mid game)

again, this can all be fixed by removing or reducing level scaling, and replacing it with a system that designates easy, medium, and hard POIs. It can be very intuitive to assign which POIs should be hard - larger ones would obviously be swarming with more difficult zombies. Hard POIs should be like skyscrapers. My favorite moment in A16 was the pharma POI that at the top level had irradiated zombies in experimentation holding tanks - and i thought holy ♥♥♥♥ - and then they bust out and attacked me and it was great - i wasn't complaining about the irradiated zombies at all. In A16 the skyscrapers were an expedition, that I had to plan and prepare for, even to the extent of throwing down an underground forward operating base with chests to store loot and backup gear in case I died. Splints, first aid, torches to light the way in case I died, steel pickaxe and fireaxe, wood in case i needed to make ladders and frames, and plenty of ammo. They truly felt like a vertical dungeon. But it should be up to the player when they want to do such an undertaking. I have no problem if endgame content is swarming with greens, or better yet, new zombies with truly horrific special abilities (they eat your inventory on death for example), but it should be up to the player when they want to experience that

 
Though when it comes to turrets, even in A16 ... Course. Paper was a little easier to come by. 🤷🏻
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Have you gone into the Paper mill POI, with an axe? Once my character is powered up, I leave with over 2500 paper. Once you ammo economy is up and running (mines in the three resources and money to buy all ammo from trader) you are good for 2-3 horde nights. easy peasy. :)

 
True it doesn't make sense. Single-use schematics might as well be a rare material.
As for legendary items, even if the game really needs more rare chase items, I don't really think they would offer much. Eventually, they will become the new standard, the novelty will wear off, complaints would come up about enemies not being able to keep up or the game being too easy (considering leg. items are more powerful version of already existing weapons), enemies will have to be adjusted further etc etc... There are many more possibilities for chase items that can also be utility/qol/survival-related.

As for scaling, what to say. Level scaling, in general, is the devil. What I would enjoy more, is a map with mixed difficulty zones with different lootlists. That would take care of the gating for most items in the game. And exploration tech gating is better than level tech gating. And perhaps some soft level scaling in the form of e.g. more specials, instead of glowing bullet sponge copies. In the case of the BM horde, level scaling is a necessary evil, but I would like it to factor in global time (with a soft cap). I know that these things are never going to happen but oh well.
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Very true. Which I guess is why Empyrion went with the non-repairable idea.

Always been a fan of the 'Distance = Difficulty' &/or 'Zone = Difficulty' gameplay. For 7dtd the supporting piece that would really make it sing would be some kind of mobile base. Maybe a first tier being a full size 4x4 pickup truck w camper; lots of storage and cooking/sleeping, bit of defense.

Tier2 a small motorhome; better defense, able to have a Work or Chem station.

TopTier (assuming they can't/don't add in railroad) Military OshKosh 8x8 tractor w add-ons; mid-size sleeper trailer with one each stations; could also add a trailer to carry Jeeps/Motorcycles. Able to mount a few Turrets for defense.

Pipe dreams for now, but maybe in 7 Days To Die-The Escape! :)

Have you gone into the Paper mill POI, with an axe? Once my character is powered up, I leave with over 2500 paper. Once you ammo economy is up and running (mines in the three resources and money to buy all ammo from trader) you are good for 2-3 horde nights. easy peasy. :)
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Heard those were great and wish I could but rwg only gave me tons of water works, cell & junk yard pois. Haven't figured out how to import pois into the map either; if you happen to know of a vid tut on doing that I'd really appreciate a link!

I would like to see TFPs expand on the Paper Mill idea; POIs where the main draw is a Resource. Shamway/Shotgun/Working etc kind of do that, but the Paper Mill expanded the idea into Resources.

So a Lead Smelter (Trophy Factory?), maybe a Chemical or Fertilizer Plant for Potassium Nitrate?

Could have a Charcoal Plant where you could bring your own wood & use the kiln(?) to make charcoal to use to make Gun Powder.

Ammunition &/or Casing/Bullet Factories. Tire or Auto Repair shops. 6M Factory for Glue & Tape. John Moose dealership where you might get a big ol combine running; that'd make horde night a blast :)

Combine with the 'Distance = Difficulty' and it offers a distinctly different playstyle option. Tired of Mining? No problem.

 
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