PC Game direction? Is it now intelligent mutants or will bandits take over

[JasonX]

Hi,

Whilst there are many things I like about 17.x, there is one thing thing (a game direction) that I can't reconcile with.

17.x and its new AI/pathing code has fundamentally changed this game from an open world survival sandbox dealing with mindless zombies.... toward a more arcade-like experience with intelligent mutants (I really can't call them zombies anymore) that have engineering knowledge and can explore multiple routes.

To give you an example: the last time my group played 17.x (we now play 16.4 only) our base that we built on the second floor of the hospital POI had zombies coming up a stairwell and rather than come for us through a rows of traps and a single line of 50 inch columns... they backtracked down a corridor, passed through two rooms in order to exploit a weak wall on the side of the fortified area we were defending.

Now I get that the pro players want more challenge (I love challenge too)... but what is the game direction?

I figured bandits would have been introduced in A16: smaller groups with smart AI, and they would deal with underground bases through sapping, or above ground bases through RGPs/catapaults/C4. I would expect them to go up stairs, avoid traps, and find alternate routes to exploit alternate entrances.

But zombies now sensing people under 100 feet underground?

And intelligently seeking out structural weaknesses and complex paths?

I guess what I am hoping for is a definitive statement from a dev that 7DTD is going in a direction that I think is true to the genre:

-that 7DTD will make zombies mindless again, and move the intelligent AI into bandits.

- that 7D2D will not be made into a heavy arcade experience (every POI a guided scare tour, bullet sponge zombies)

- that 7D2D will continue to cater to those that want a more realistic survival experience (build bases where you want, play how you want)

One last comment, and it's a bit of a feature rollback request but it is related to the third statement above: can't we just keep the old learn-by-use skill system... add some perks to augment it... and use daily XP capping to prevent power levelers? i.e. take the best of both worlds and address the exploits in a way that doesn't add artificial gates?

Thanks for reading.

 

[RipClaw]

The official statement of the AI is that it is currently under development and will serve as a base for both bandits and zombies with varying degrees of intelligence.

You can adapt to the current AI but you have to test a lot. For example, I have a savegame where I build bases in creative mode and test it against a bloodmoon horde. If the design fails, I analyze the problems and adapt my design. This is a process that can take a lot of time.

What makes it more difficult is that the AI is currently adjusted with each patch and you have to make modifications over and over again or even give up a base and build a new one.

One problem I have with the current development is the area destruction mode the zombies now have. This is apparently used as a solution every time the developers run into a problem. In the last patch they gave the zombies more random behavior but also in combination with the destruction mode.

I'm afraid in the end it will all come down to the players standing on a big concrete block surrounded by trenches filled with spikes and shooting at the zombies with the AK47 or the SMG and throwing Molotov cocktails. No more sophisticated and creative basic designs and no more real tactics. Just more and more firepower until you run out of ammo.

 

[OzHawkeye]

17.x and its new AI/pathing code has fundamentally changed this game from an open world survival sandbox dealing with mindless zombies.... toward a more arcade-like experience with intelligent mutants (I really can't call them zombies anymore) that have engineering knowledge and can explore multiple routes.

To give you an example: the last time my group played 17.x (we now play 16.4 only) our base that we built on the second floor of the hospital POI had zombies coming up a stairwell and rather than come for us through a rows of traps and a single line of 50 inch columns... they backtracked down a corridor, passed through two rooms in order to exploit a weak wall on the side of the fortified area we were defending.

One last comment, and it's a bit of a feature rollback request but it is related to the third statement above: can't we just keep the old learn-by-use skill system... add some perks to augment it... and use daily XP capping to prevent power levelers? i.e. take the best of both worlds and address the exploits in a way that doesn't add artificial gates?

Thanks for reading.

To address the two main points, and mostly in agreement with RipClaws answer to you:

1) What you're getting in A17 is Zombie AI that is more or less omniscient, with full knowledge of the map, and the structural integrity of every block between themselves and you. TFP have said that it was simply easier for them to make it "as good as it can be" and then dumb it down for the Zombies later on. There's TFP posts on the subject, which strongly infer we'll end up with a range intelligent entities with zombies concentrating mostly (but not entirely) on the "dumb as post" end of that spectrum and bandits more towards the "carries their own perfectly accurate map plus slide rule" towards the end of that spectrum.

2) LBD (Learn by doing), isn't likely to come back. TFP seem pretty keen on the perk system.

 

[webskorpion]

Look for "wikipedia List of zombie films". The trend has been moving towards smarter zombies in the movie world. For example "The Girl with All the Gifts" or "Resident Evil".

A journey through time to the beginnings of "7 Days to Die":

please refer: „kickstarter projects 7-days-to-die-zombie-survival-game description“

Quote: „Nobody knows for sure if it was the radiation, the biochemical weapons or an act of god but an unknown virus soon transforms the surviving humans into an army of the animated dead, acting as a single-minded being.“

Quote: „Relentless and Special Enemies - Enemies will claw, jump, climb and break their way through the world in order to get to you. They can see, smell and hear the player and can work in a group.“

A virus can have very different effects on cognitive abilities. The developers have a lot of freedom.

The behavior of zombies can be explained by instincts. You do not have to be a professor at a university for their behavior.

(Unfortunately, I can only speak very little English. I have used translation program German – English.)

 

[open6l]

To address the two main points, and mostly in agreement with RipClaws answer to you:
1) What you're getting in A17 is Zombie AI that is more or less omniscient, with full knowledge of the map, and the structural integrity of every block between themselves and you. TFP have said that it was simply easier for them to make it "as good as it can be" and then dumb it down for the Zombies later on. There's TFP posts on the subject, which strongly infer we'll end up with a range intelligent entities with zombies concentrating mostly (but not entirely) on the "dumb as post" end of that spectrum and bandits more towards the "carries their own perfectly accurate map plus slide rule" towards the end of that spectrum.

So basically, stop playing with zombies enabled since their AI is completely broken until TFP finish up the AI code. Much like RWG. Got it.

 

[OzHawkeye]

So basically, stop playing with zombies enabled since their AI is completely broken until TFP finish up the AI code. Much like RWG. Got it.

Lol. Yeah, that's what I said..........

 

[RipClaw]

So basically, stop playing with zombies enabled since their AI is completely broken until TFP finish up the AI code. Much like RWG. Got it.

You don't have to turn off the zombies but you shouldn't expect the old designs to work unchanged. As I wrote before, for an efficient base you have to test what works and what doesn't. Or you can use bases that you have seen on Youtube or Twitch and that work.

In general, the destruction mode and higher block damage in combination with random behavior makes me worry more than any intelligent behavior. Intelligent behavior can always be predicted but random behavior cannot be predicted. Therefore it is not possible to plan for it.

 

[open6l]

You don't have to turn off the zombies but you shouldn't expect the old designs to work unchanged. As I wrote before, for an efficient base you have to test what works and what doesn't. Or you can use bases that you have seen on Youtube or Twitch and that work.
In general, the destruction mode and higher block damage in combination with random behavior makes me worry more than any intelligent behavior. Intelligent behavior can always be predicted but random behavior cannot be predicted. Therefore it is not possible to plan for it.

Yeah I fully understand what you're saying. My point (albeit somewhat sarcastic) is that there's no point trying to figure out the zombie AI since its currently just a basic framework for all AI ingame. Once TFP finish it up, then they can actually focus on what they want the zombies to do. Yeah you can build defenses/bases but its going to possibly change with every minor patch as they enhance the base AI first. So obviously, any old design will most likely fail with each update. I just hear players say daily that the zombie AI is broken, or it changed since 17.1, or it changed since 17.0 etc etc etc. It's 'almost' like why even bother playing with zeds until they are stabilized.

 

[RipClaw]

So obviously, any old design will most likely fail with each update. I just hear players say daily that the zombie AI is broken, or it changed since 17.1, or it changed since 17.0 etc etc etc. It's 'almost' like why even bother playing with zeds until they are stabilized.

I already had to give up one base when I switched from 17.0 to 17.1 and rework another one when I switched from 17.1 to 17.2 to make it work as intended. Unfortunately this is unavoidable at the current development speed.

However, in 17.2 we now have the option to switch off the blood moon horde completely. I've already thought about doing this because I don't enjoy it that much since the zombies don't give so much loot anymore and they can't be harvested for bones anymore. And it was always nice to see those big fields of corpses at the end of a horde.

I will probably decide if I want to switch off the bloodmoon horde when the next version comes and I have to test again if my base still works.

 

[JasonX]

Thanks for the responses. So basically, the general view is that the AI is somewhat broken now... but intelligent radiated mutants will exist in addition to bandits in the future.

And there is a belief that the mindless Walking Dead zombies will return, and that we can "mod out" the intelligent mutants to suit the gameplay experience we want.

At least we can keep enjoying 16.4, and one day 18.x might restore the game we loved.

That's not a bad idea (disabling the blood moon horde) until the AI is "fixed".

But you've got me thinking that it's not just the AI that's the problem, but also the looting that comes with the hordes. Sure there was too much loot in 16.4 by default, but there was fun and reward in building your defenses to withstand the mindless horde and looting when you got the chance.

I hate to be the die hard "old version was better" guy... but there is just too much I miss about 16.4.

 

[Damocles]

Different types of zombies (visually distinguishable) should have different levels of intelligence.

Could be indicated by their level of decomposition.

Such that the player is move afraid when spotting a certain type, that the zombie can follow him, whereas others would be easy to trick when hiding behind an obstacle or jumping up a level.

Some are dumb and slow, but strong.

Some are fast but dumb and weak.

Some a smart but weak.

Some a fast, smart and strong (the most dangerous kind).

 

[RipClaw]

Different types of zombies (visually distinguishable) should have different levels of intelligence.Could be indicated by their level of decomposition.

Such that the player is move afraid when spotting a certain type, that the zombie can follow him, whereas others would be easy to trick when hiding behind an obstacle or jumping up a level.

Some are dumb and slow, but strong.

Some are fast but dumb and weak.

Some a smart but weak.

Some a fast, smart and strong (the most dangerous kind).

As long as none of them act purely randomly, I have nothing against it.

What worries me the most would be the thought of a bloodmoon hordes that just randomly hit through the walls of my base. Even the stupidest zombies should not touch the walls if it is not necessary to come to me. I am the bait in the cage and the one the zombies are after. Accordingly, they should at least have the decency to come through the tunnel to me and run into my traps.

 

[AlyssaFaden]

Different types of zombies (visually distinguishable) should have different levels of intelligence.Could be indicated by their level of decomposition.

Such that the player is move afraid when spotting a certain type, that the zombie can follow him, whereas others would be easy to trick when hiding behind an obstacle or jumping up a level.

Some are dumb and slow, but strong.

Some are fast but dumb and weak.

Some a smart but weak.

Some a fast, smart and strong (the most dangerous kind).

it would be kinda cool to have intelligent zombies (like Bub!) that others followed; would give a reason to take out the "lead". Do so and the others become dumb as a post.

Personally though I'm okay with watching the development of the AI and just rolling with it. Game is in development, I'm having fun playing it, things will get noodled and changed, so I'm not going to lose any sleep in the interim.

 

[Damocles]

it would be kinda cool to have intelligent zombies (like Bub!) that others followed; would give a reason to take out the "lead". Do so and the others become dumb as a post.
Personally though I'm okay with watching the development of the AI and just rolling with it. Game is in development, I'm having fun playing it, things will get noodled and changed, so I'm not going to lose any sleep in the interim.

The problem is: no matter how smart or dumb an ai actor acts, if they all behave exactly the same, the player can predict their behavior and toy with it.

With the ai having a range of behaviors, it gets more unpredictable, and thus more scary.

The player might build a perfect trap to block of the standard path ai zombie take, but one of them sneaks up a different route, making an unexpected attack.

Its this psychological element of the unexpected happening what makes those situation scary. It should not just be the zombie getting stronger or having outer-worldly abilities.

An example of a special ai behavior in terms of the horde night:

the zombies drop loot-bags randomly. Those bags should stay long enough to be able to snatch them during horde night, but not so long as to allow the player to wait till the morning.

Now if a few "sneaky" zombies hide behind cover (some position out o the line of sight of the player), and the player would try to loot one of those bags, the zombies would suddenly charge at the player (now having a free path).

This would make this situation interesting: the player could choose to stay in the safety of the base, or risk getting the loot from a seemingly empty battle-field.

Even if there are no zombies hiding, the player would not 100% know that. Any "loot-run" would pose an unpredictable risk.

 

[RipClaw]

The problem is: no matter how smart or dumb an ai actor acts, if they all behave exactly the same, the player can predict their behavior and toy with it.With the ai having a range of behaviors, it gets more unpredictable, and thus more scary.

The bloodmoon horde is the tower defense aspect in the game and it's not about it being scary. It's about the zombies trying to overpower you with their numbers and you have to defend yourself against them. And to do so you have to be able to plan.

In POIs you have scary moments but the zombies are already hiding in walls, cabinets and the ceiling. They don't need to hide anymore.

And so besides I can build a base so that there is no possibility for the zombies to hide or surprise me while I collect the loot.

 

[FA_Q2]

As long as none of them act purely randomly, I have nothing against it.
What worries me the most would be the thought of a bloodmoon hordes that just randomly hit through the walls of my base. Even the stupidest zombies should not touch the walls if it is not necessary to come to me. I am the bait in the cage and the one the zombies are after. Accordingly, they should at least have the decency to come through the tunnel to me and run into my traps.

This.

Random behavior means that base building will become untenable. It is interesting to me that many people asking for dumb zombies are also upset that they bust through their base with such ease due to focused attacks. You cant fix this by making them less intelligent - that exacerbates the issue for the most part.

 

[OzHawkeye]

This.
Random behavior means that base building will become untenable. It is interesting to me that many people asking for dumb zombies are also upset that they bust through their base with such ease due to focused attacks. You cant fix this by making them less intelligent - that exacerbates the issue for the most part.

There has to be some degree of randomness to Zombies. Absent that, whatever AI is put in place for them, dumb, smart or somewhere in between, will, by its very predictability, be cheesed almost as soon as it's released.

Randomness will force the player to defend their whole base, not just the AI-exploiting death-trap setup.

 

[meganoth]

I already had to give up one base when I switched from 17.0 to 17.1 and rework another one when I switched from 17.1 to 17.2 to make it work as intended. Unfortunately this is unavoidable at the current development speed.
However, in 17.2 we now have the option to switch off the blood moon horde completely. I've already thought about doing this because I don't enjoy it that much since the zombies don't give so much loot anymore and they can't be harvested for bones anymore. And it was always nice to see those big fields of corpses at the end of a horde.

I will probably decide if I want to switch off the bloodmoon horde when the next version comes and I have to test again if my base still works.

That really depends a lot on the base design and whether it uses maybe too much knowledge about zombie behaviour. I have a base that is basically very primitive, a cage with thick walls on west and east sides and long entrances with traps on north and south side. No change to the AI yet has made this base obsolete or made it necessary to change anything.

I agree though that more random behaviour of the zombies might provide a danger to the side walls, but I already have put spike traps all over the sides to prevent single zombies attacking there becoming a problem.

The best design anyway is redundancy. Always have a secondary base (or secondary levels in one base) around for the case that your primary base doesn't hold off the horde long enough.

I agree with Oz that randomness is a necessary part of the zombie behaviour. If zombies get too good to breach our defenses because of this then a balancing step will have to decrease block damage or group damage bonus to counter that. Zombie behaviour that might surprise you every 5th horde night makes a good game. The player should never feel secure in the knowledge that his base holds under ANY circumstances.

 

[RipClaw]

That really depends a lot on the base design and whether it uses maybe too much knowledge about zombie behaviour. I have a base that is basically very primitive, a cage with thick walls on west and east sides and long entrances with traps on north and south side. No change to the AI yet has made this base obsolete or made it necessary to change anything.

In principle it is a tunnel on stilts to which a 1 block wide staircase leads up. At the end of the tunnel I am in a cage.

I didn't use any stair elements for the stairs but they are just full blocks so the zombies have to jump up the stairs and they get slowed down.

In the walls of the tunnel there are dart traps and in between electric fences so that the zombies are paralyzed and killed by the darts. This eliminates most of the zombies. Only dogs and Spider zombies get through and I take care of them personally.

In the A17.1 at the end of the tunnel there was a gap in the ground through which the surviving zombies fell and returned to the entrance. In A17.2 the behavior changed to the extent that some zombies attacked the part of the base I was in directly.

As a countermeasure I have dug a 3 block deep and 2 block wide trench that surrounds the part of the base where I am. A ramp leads out of the trench and towards the entrance. In addition, I have closed the gap in the ground so that no more zombies can fall through but they then hit against my cage which usually takes only a few seconds until they are dead.

The base is very effective in terms of resource consumption and the damage is very small.

I could have built the base with 4 tunnels and the cage in the middle so it doesn't matter which direction the horde comes from. However, I play on navezgane and the designer of the map is probably a fan of hill landscapes. There is only little flat surface so I had to keep the base compact.

I agree though that more random behaviour of the zombies might provide a danger to the side walls, but I already have put spike traps all over the sides to prevent single zombies attacking there becoming a problem.

The spikes traps are not very durable. If you play with 32 zombies at the same time as me, they are destroyed pretty quickly. The old logspikes did less damage but they were much more durable.

The best design anyway is redundancy. Always have a secondary base (or secondary levels in one base) around for the case that your primary base doesn't hold off the horde long enough.

It's not about holding the horde off. I want to destroy the horde.

I agree with Oz that randomness is a necessary part of the zombie behaviour. If zombies get too good to breach our defenses because of this then a balancing step will have to decrease block damage or group damage bonus to counter that. Zombie behaviour that might surprise you every 5th horde night makes a good game. The player should never feel secure in the knowledge that his base holds under ANY circumstances.

I doubt the block damage will be reduced again. It was significantly increased in A17 and the total HP of the blocks was massively reduced. Therefore, the old melee bases are no longer effectively usable because the zombies break through too quickly.

If I can't be sure if a base will hold or not, I can give up the base building right away. For me a base is the expression for a strategy and a strategy shouldn't be a gamble. And it shouldn't be spray and pray or use a many guns as possible either. If it comes to that, the game is just a stupid zombie shooter that you play and forget.

People who think they can effectively fight random acting zombies underestimate what that means. Even only 8 zombies at a time are hard to keep track of. With more zombies it is practically impossible to keep track of every single one. Accordingly, the zombies will destroy blocks and perhaps even penetrate the base.

Furthermore you waste a lot of ammunition. At some point you reach a point where you run out of ammo and then you are without options.

 

[Roland]

If I can't be sure if a base will hold or not, I can give up the base building right away. For me a base is the expression for a strategy and a strategy shouldn't be a gamble. And it shouldn't be spray and pray or use a many guns as possible either. If it comes to that, the game is just a stupid zombie shooter that you play and forget.

What?

Are you saying you have never had to deal with a breach before and have never experienced the excitement and feeling of triumph of successfully surviving a breach of your defenses? Some of my most memorable moments in base defense was when they got past my defenses and I had to scramble and fall back to a new position. Sometimes it ended in my death because I panicked and sometimes I had narrow escapes and then ultimately victory which felt extremely satisfying.

I would not want to deliberately let them in to have those experiences so zombie AI that is random enough that it will occasionally happen and the threat of it possibly happening being there is something very appealing to me. Being able to build a perfect defense that 100% will always repel a predictable behavior so that I pretty much know a breach will never happen is boring and no thrills.

I want to try my best to survive but I also want for my defenses to have a chance for failure and experience the terror of scrambling to survive in the face of it.