PC Fundamentals of Survivor

Hellox said:
I seen some people saying it makes game harder cause no infinite water with jars. In some regards I guess that may be true.

Yet, I think it is almost as easy if not easier than before with "magical water dispensers" that give you more than enough water each day that you don't even have to purify.

This game doesn't have much of a survival aspect of food or water , besides having the numbers.

Both food and water are plentiful in this game. Even if you play on day 200 multiplayer with everything ranshacked... the amount of food and water you get is enough to feed an army.

To jar or not to jar... I could careless, I like the idea of trying to get rid of infinite water and make game harder but could have been done by just making water finite as well..

Honestly think game really lacks the "hardcore" survivor feeling and isn't really going to change unless a lot of things do.
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Not a lot of things. Just one actually. 50% loot setting. Give it a go because it really makes a big difference. 

 
7D2D isn't a survival game in the first place.

It's a looter-shooter that has also some - rather basic - survival aspects to it.

People who would rather like to see its survival aspect being more predominant are disappointed by the water changes,

because they see the "real life survival logic" being cut from the game.

Especially in an "urban postapocalyptic suvival situation" - which obviously is exactly the theme of 7D2D - there should be an overabundance of empty ( or reusable full) containers which could be found all over the place, and you'd have no problem to get these (emtpy bottles and alike) and use them to collect water, fuel, and whatever other fluids you want and take it with you.

That obvious break of logic is what bugs people.

They're not really complaining that the game doesn't work anymore, in fact many people say that water is still too easy to get. It doesn't matter.

So yes, the decision that TFP decided to get rid of emtpy containers does work gameplay wise, but with said downside.

Making water scarce is...questionable and may still be subject to further balancing.

But really there is no need to try and explain these people from end to end why their opinion that there should be empty containers in the game is (allegedly) bad/wrong/logic breaking/...

When somebody says he wants to fetch water from a lake and doesn't like that this is gone,

just tell him: YES! In that aspect, that decision totally sucks! Basic survival logic was taken away from a game that claims to (also) be a survival game.

But it was for the good of other aspects that profit from that desicion. And yes it works smooth overall, despite the "stupidity" that...and many other things too if you think carefully.

This is not The Long Dark...and I'm glad it isn't.

...well, considering the length this post has reached...the long dark might apply somehow to it...sorry...

 
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meilodasreh said:
When somebody says he wants to fetch water from a lake and doesn't like that this is gone,

just tell him: YES! In that aspect, that decision totally sucks! Basic survival logic was taken away from a game that claims to (also) be a survival game.

But it was for the good of other aspects that profit from that desicion. And yes it works smooth overall, despite the "stupidity" that...and many other things too if you think carefully.
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This is a good point.  The debate over immersion and realism relating to empty jars and/or getting water from lakes and similar sources isn't ever going to go anywhere because 1) It isn't realistic, and 2) It doesn't make sense (unless you focus only on whether or not it makes water more difficult).  It is a change that is going to feel stupid to players.  There's no way around that and no explaining how it is better just because all containers are now gone or that water is more difficult.  That doesn't solve the core problem of it feeling stupid to players.

I am happy to have empty jars gone.  And I have no interest in water from lakes and stuff.  I'm also not at all interested in dew collectors; I think they are dumb and a poor choice for gathering water.  Yet I still feel that preventing gathering water from a water source is stupid regardless of gameplay.  The only way to fix that is to make that water deadly to drink and impossible to purify.  This would require that you make it deadly to swim in as well for it to make sense, of course.  You can't fix it by talking about making water more difficult or making all containers gone even if you want them gone like I do.

So, in short, there's no reason to get into these debates beyond simply saying something like you suggest - "Yes, it's stupid.  Yes, it isn't immersive.  But they don't want the jars and they don't want water to be so easy to get from water sources, so it's what we have."  Then, just leave it at that.  No one is going to change anyone's opinions, so debating isn't going to ever get anywhere.  Besides, I don't think anyone who is on the side of being glad jars are gone and water is less easy to access doesn't agree that it really doesn't make any sense even if they like the change.  :)

 
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Urban Blackbear said:
Can we talk about shell casing and how they disappear when I fire off bullets? A lot of survival games out there let you pick them back up. Free the brass!
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yeah I like that too. Good thing I play a mod that adds a mod ("brass catcher") that does exactly this.

I only wonder what imaginary/simulated container there is to catch all the casings...oh wait, that is not vanilla, so screw it! 🤣

 
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If I had to guess I'd say at least 80% of the people play 7D2D modded, because vanilla has so many things that are easily fixable via mods (e.g. lockable inventory slots, although this has found its way into vanilla now).

But from those lil qol features to complete theme-changing overhauls, there's so much to find.

Is there a way to see/distinguish how many people play it vanilla vs modded, maybe in the steam statistics?

 
meganoth said:
What you seem to miss is that the terms are used differently in the US and elsewhere (so it seems). If we regard the info on that UK website as somewhat accurate then at least in the UK a bolt is just a sub-category of screw and one that isn't exactly defined. So a bolt is a screw as well, but a screw might not be a bolt. 

I found multiple websites that had VERY different definitions of bolts and screws and their difference. The encyclopedia britannica seems not to adhere to your definition of screw and bolt as well.
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you can call it a purple nurple if you want to, it really doesn’t bother me.  Get a funny smirk from me, but I deal with people using the incorrect terms all the time.  Important thing is that you use the correct fastener, whether it is a “screw” or a wheel bolt.  As long as that “screw” looks like those wheel bolts in the second picture.

 
meilodasreh said:
Is there a way to see/distinguish how many people play it vanilla vs modded, maybe in the steam statistics?
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It wouldn't likely be very accurate even if you could, though I'm sure you can't.  The reason is that even adding one additional custom POI means the game isn't vanilla.  And although that isn't necessarily a mod, there are mods that are nothing other than additional POI and the game considers them to be mods and so any statistics would include those.  But do you consider custom POI to be mods as far as what you're talking about?  I'm guessing not, and I wouldn't either.  There are also so many different kinds of mods that don't really change the gameplay at all.  For example, is a custom UI really an indication that someone doesn't like how the vanilla game works, or just that they like a different UI?

I play the game mostly vanilla but I include additional POI, I modded a rollup door to offer a powered option, and I increased the durability of vehicles, and I have the UBBE mod to add additional items to the game (doors, windows, lights, etc).  None of that affects the vanilla experience all that much.  Is my game modded?  Yes.  Is it still essentially the vanilla game?  Yes.

On the other hand, you have overhaul mods that can make the game into an entirely different game... at least to an extent.  Where is the line between what still is essentially a vanilla experience even if modded versus something that is a significant change to the game?  You can look at it in a purely black and white light and say that any change whatsoever, including even one custom POI, is modded and compare that to those without any changes to the game.  That comparison probably will get you a very higher percentage of people playing a "modded" version.  But if you look at it more in terms of number of people playing what is still basically the vanilla game versus people playing a game that is significantly different, then that percent of "modded" games will be much lower.

In the end, my estimate is over 80% of players will eventually make at least one change to the game, even if it's just adding more POI.  That doesn't mean the vanilla game is not good enough for 80%+ of players, though.  And besides, it has been said that TFP want the vanilla game to be more of a starter experience with the expectation that players will use mods to increase the enjoyment of the game.  The fact that it is so easy to mod is a plus to the development plans for this game, imo.  They'll never please every player no matter what they do.  Accepting that and making the game easy to adjust to fit what each player might want is a good design choice.

 
meilodasreh said:
So yes, the decision that TFP decided to get rid of emtpy containers does work gameplay wise, but with said downside.

Making water scarce is...questionable and may still be subject to further balancing.
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You know, no one complained that we could loot gas without the benefit of a Jerry Can.

But, we let go of water jars - and now its grown into so many threads that just have gotten repetitive.

And I want to be clear and re-iterate for those that haven't seen the other threads that water is not nearly

as scarce as people make it out to be.   I know because I've tested this over and over again, and I've

really no interest in ruining someone's day by stating so.

If you make a concerted effort to seek out water, its not so bad.   I say this in lieu of 'Git gud',

but I'd be lying if that's not what the issue actually is.  People want water, but they want it easy.  Unfortunately,

some folks always want something easy.  I've read so many hardcores kicking this can around, waxing poetic about

how hard is water to come by in the same thread they talk about playing on higher difficulties with lower

loot percentages and it's like watching people kicking themselves in the shins and blaming TFP for it.

Early game water is an absolutely solvable problem, but it IS a problem.  There's meant to be meaning in that problem.

I mean I empathize that some folks could have a really bad go at it, if RNG goes bad - but that also adds to the

desperation of survival.  I'm kinda over the idea that some folks think this is not a survival game.  Water scarcity is

a defining characteristic of survival gameplay.

 
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meilodasreh said:
Especially in an "urban postapocalyptic suvival situation" - which obviously is exactly the theme of 7D2D - there should be an overabundance of empty ( or reusable full) containers which could be found all over the place, and you'd have no problem to get these (emtpy bottles and alike) and use them to collect water, fuel, and whatever other fluids you want and take it with you.

That obvious break of logic is what bugs people.
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If you really think this is true then you should also find dozens of threads in the Valheim forums where they complain about missing food containers like bowls or plates.  See https://valheim.fandom.com/wiki/Food, you can see that the icons do have containers like cups and bowls. My search for "valheim forum missing containers" got zero applicable results though. And you probably won't claim that valheim is not survival, right?

Can you explain why there seems to be no discussion among valheim players about this?

 
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Ramethzer0 said:
You know, no one complained that we could loot gas without the benefit of a Jerry Can.

But, we let go of water jars - and now its grown into so many threads that just have gotten repetitive.
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Funny but true, this is how slow I play,  I cant even comment on cans.  I have not had a vehicle as of yet, other than a bicycle.

 
Ramethzer0 said:
You know, no one complained that we could loot gas without the benefit of a Jerry Can.

But, we let go of water jars - and now its grown into so many threads that just have gotten repetitive.
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Why do you think I been discussing the correct definition of screw vs bolt in this thread?  😆

 
theFlu said:
I can try: "In Valheim, players are able to get all the water they need from the nearby lake."
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@meilodasreh could simply answer this question: "If TFP changed the game so you would get filled water jars when scooping up water from a lake but you still never found nor could create empty jars, would then ALL of your immersion issues with the water changes be solved?"

If he said yes, then you are right and meilodasreh's post is just (sort of) hitting on a bag of changes without being to careful what he hits. If no, this isn't the only thing meilodasreh thinks is wrong with water in 7d2d

 
meganoth said:
would then ALL of your immersion issues with the water changes be solved?
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There's a difference between ALL and "significant enough to whine about". Plus meilo wasn't even talking about his own opinion, at least by his phrasing he was talking about "people who complain about the break in logic"; so I doubt he can speak for everyone anyway.

But sure, I'd be curious about his own opinion as well. Not that it changes mine; mine is established from the facts of the situation, not a popular poll. Sure he might be able to provide a fact I haven't considered, which could change my mind, but such a thing is in the realm of unknown unknowns for me.

 
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