LordoftheMoo
Refugee
There have been a lot of discussions, arguments, etc. on here about how a17 plays. Is this viable, is that still valid, is some other thing a bug or "the future". I think one thing that's getting lost is "how does a person define 'Fun' "? I think as the exp build progresses toward a stable, and towards an a18 in the future, how "fun" the game is need to be monitored because in the end that is its true measure of success. How fun it is to those who play it. This is true of all games, board games, card games, video games... each has to be fun in some way or else people will dislike it and not play it. The tough part is that how people define fun is varies from person to person.
In context, some people like a grind-y fps style game and don't think a17e goes far enough. Others are upset that it's impossible to build a defensive building that can fully survive a horde night with little damage, as was possible in a16. Some people think the level of challenge and combat are perfect, and want to see only slight refinements to a17. For me, I define fun in this context as "a cross between entertaining activity, and challenge, and creativity" (the last mostly around building because building can be fun just in itself). How does my definition work into a17? That's my problem, now, as I don't know anymore.
As some examples example of why I'm struggling to find fun in a17, I started a new b208 game Scavenger difficulty (because I'm still trying to feel out the huge amount of deep changes), and spent the first part of day 1 collecting things like wood, a cooking pot from a nearby cabin, etc. Basic stuff. But I've noticed that things move slower now. Not progression, but actual things like "using a stone axe for construction is slower now than a16". This seems to be intentional, though I don't know the reason. Perhaps to just slow down some progression? Definitely makes you feel like you're not making as much progress when performing tasks, that the game is almost lagging on you (though it's not actual lag of any kind).
Regarding stamina, well slowing player activity down using stamina drain, that was in a16. That's fine. The more you do, the more tired you are. You need to stop and rest. Got it. However, having stamina decay both from activity and from just time passing (hunger is a factor of time), slows the game down and makes the early levels just tedious. Remember, getting the perks to improve that requires that the early game be played - "you must suffer through the pain to appreciate the slow eventual reward" doesn't feel like it's very fun. It starts to feel by the second or third time through that the early game is punishment for an eventual "Easy ride" (never made it to that point in a17, this far, but I'll believe those here that it's quite easy once you have around 100 points in). I can see making things more of a chore and challenge in the early game, because that's the stick to the carrot! But something's off, and for me the fun is drained from early game play. It's no longer a challenge, it's just a job.
A little later in that same game (mid-afternoon, day 1 still), I then trucked off the 2.1km to the vendor to complete the last newbie quest. I got there at about 20:00, and wandered outside not long after. Just up the road was another building, another vendor. Yay! I went up there, and went inside. Now it's about 21:00, and getting dark. Shadows in the game are VERY dark now - almost pitch black, to the point of being an issue IMO, but whatever. After checking that vendor, I went to leave. It's 21:15 in game. I open the garage door and a zombie bear, silently waiting just outside the door, mauls me. No warning. The bear wasn't trying to get in, as the zeds do, banging away. It was literally sitting up against the door such that when I opened it, I thought something had gone wrong as the outside didn't become visible. It wasn't until after the thing hit me that it made any noise.
Having one of the toughest enemies in game curb stomp you under 18 in-game hours into the first day, where you can do nothing (and cannot even see it because their texture turns near black in shadow), well, that's not fun. That's not challenge. That's just "here, die now". There is absolutely zero a level 2 player on day 1 can do in that situation. There was nowhere to run - this was the entryway into the Jen vendor complex, and the bear blocked the entire door anyways. Remember, this was on Scavenger, so there is no "lower difficulty" to drop to. I paused the game around 20hp, stared at the screen for a minute, and exited the game. I wasn't having fun.
I *want* to like a17. I have a lot of issues with some of the mechanic implementations (like perks being king, etc.) but I want to try to see this game be fun. This is an experimental build, so things are being tested mostly for functionality, but also to try to work out any issues with the new systems that weren't visible in internal testing. But some kind of balance is off in the game, and posts seem to imply that TFP want the game to play this way. I'm not sure what, though I think the gamestage calculation and resulting zed table contents is a large part of it. I guess it just feels that, instead of everything in the game trying to kill me, the game *itself* is trying to kill me. And that to me just isn't fun. There isn't challenge in that, when the game puts things in your way that you cannot overcome even with luck and skill. There has to be SOME chance for it to be "a challenge". If there isn't, then it's something else, instead.
So, what do the rest of you define as "fun" and "challenge"? Does a17 fit it (I think we can all agree that once you learned the system, a16 had little challenge past like day 3 or 4)? I've seen a lot of posts on individual things within a17, but I think it would be interesting to see how people define "fun in a game" and then compare it to a17 as a whole, and not on the individual mechanic level.
In context, some people like a grind-y fps style game and don't think a17e goes far enough. Others are upset that it's impossible to build a defensive building that can fully survive a horde night with little damage, as was possible in a16. Some people think the level of challenge and combat are perfect, and want to see only slight refinements to a17. For me, I define fun in this context as "a cross between entertaining activity, and challenge, and creativity" (the last mostly around building because building can be fun just in itself). How does my definition work into a17? That's my problem, now, as I don't know anymore.
As some examples example of why I'm struggling to find fun in a17, I started a new b208 game Scavenger difficulty (because I'm still trying to feel out the huge amount of deep changes), and spent the first part of day 1 collecting things like wood, a cooking pot from a nearby cabin, etc. Basic stuff. But I've noticed that things move slower now. Not progression, but actual things like "using a stone axe for construction is slower now than a16". This seems to be intentional, though I don't know the reason. Perhaps to just slow down some progression? Definitely makes you feel like you're not making as much progress when performing tasks, that the game is almost lagging on you (though it's not actual lag of any kind).
Regarding stamina, well slowing player activity down using stamina drain, that was in a16. That's fine. The more you do, the more tired you are. You need to stop and rest. Got it. However, having stamina decay both from activity and from just time passing (hunger is a factor of time), slows the game down and makes the early levels just tedious. Remember, getting the perks to improve that requires that the early game be played - "you must suffer through the pain to appreciate the slow eventual reward" doesn't feel like it's very fun. It starts to feel by the second or third time through that the early game is punishment for an eventual "Easy ride" (never made it to that point in a17, this far, but I'll believe those here that it's quite easy once you have around 100 points in). I can see making things more of a chore and challenge in the early game, because that's the stick to the carrot! But something's off, and for me the fun is drained from early game play. It's no longer a challenge, it's just a job.
A little later in that same game (mid-afternoon, day 1 still), I then trucked off the 2.1km to the vendor to complete the last newbie quest. I got there at about 20:00, and wandered outside not long after. Just up the road was another building, another vendor. Yay! I went up there, and went inside. Now it's about 21:00, and getting dark. Shadows in the game are VERY dark now - almost pitch black, to the point of being an issue IMO, but whatever. After checking that vendor, I went to leave. It's 21:15 in game. I open the garage door and a zombie bear, silently waiting just outside the door, mauls me. No warning. The bear wasn't trying to get in, as the zeds do, banging away. It was literally sitting up against the door such that when I opened it, I thought something had gone wrong as the outside didn't become visible. It wasn't until after the thing hit me that it made any noise.
Having one of the toughest enemies in game curb stomp you under 18 in-game hours into the first day, where you can do nothing (and cannot even see it because their texture turns near black in shadow), well, that's not fun. That's not challenge. That's just "here, die now". There is absolutely zero a level 2 player on day 1 can do in that situation. There was nowhere to run - this was the entryway into the Jen vendor complex, and the bear blocked the entire door anyways. Remember, this was on Scavenger, so there is no "lower difficulty" to drop to. I paused the game around 20hp, stared at the screen for a minute, and exited the game. I wasn't having fun.
I *want* to like a17. I have a lot of issues with some of the mechanic implementations (like perks being king, etc.) but I want to try to see this game be fun. This is an experimental build, so things are being tested mostly for functionality, but also to try to work out any issues with the new systems that weren't visible in internal testing. But some kind of balance is off in the game, and posts seem to imply that TFP want the game to play this way. I'm not sure what, though I think the gamestage calculation and resulting zed table contents is a large part of it. I guess it just feels that, instead of everything in the game trying to kill me, the game *itself* is trying to kill me. And that to me just isn't fun. There isn't challenge in that, when the game puts things in your way that you cannot overcome even with luck and skill. There has to be SOME chance for it to be "a challenge". If there isn't, then it's something else, instead.
So, what do the rest of you define as "fun" and "challenge"? Does a17 fit it (I think we can all agree that once you learned the system, a16 had little challenge past like day 3 or 4)? I've seen a lot of posts on individual things within a17, but I think it would be interesting to see how people define "fun in a game" and then compare it to a17 as a whole, and not on the individual mechanic level.
I think though that on such a low difficulty setting that the thing should never have been there, and I think that's part of the overall issue with a17's scaling right now, is that the difference between Scavenger and Insane isn't a survivability level. I think that's what's broken, not that on Insane you are going to get eaten a LOT because you should (You deserve it for playing on insane. 
). Rather, you shouldn't on Scavenger.