PC From a passionate fan, I'm disappointed

Can you give specific examples of where you believe they’ve gone off the rails of their original vision?
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Well, not to beat a dead horse - though I need the glue - can you tell me where in their original kickstarter "baseball bat parts" fits?

Or what happened to the 5x5 grid crafting system?

It's also true that they've added a WIDE range of items that aren't in their original kickstarter - the scope creep that I mentioned.

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I'd like to hear any specifics of what you mean, though, you may have a point; but nothing raised in this thread is in it's "finished" state; and almost all of it has been stated by the devs as under work to improve and restore lost greatness and improve past and present shortcomings - so it's a little dramatic to be declaring judgement when things are still in flux.
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Of course it's not in a finished state. That's alpha for you.

But I'm referring to the stated "roadmap," such as it is, and where the game is now. They've gone a bit far afield...

True, technology changes. But that doesn't mean they haven't changed course. Just because you can use a jet instead of a propeller plane doesn't require you to go over the north pole instead of east-west....

 
the scope creep that I mentioned.
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Scope creep for project managers is bad.

Scope creep for people like me who bought the game is good.

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can you tell me where in their original kickstarter "baseball bat parts" fits?
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Probably where it mentions crafting?

 
Well, not to beat a dead horse - though I need the glue - can you tell me where in their original kickstarter "baseball bat parts" fits?
Or what happened to the 5x5 grid crafting system?

It's also true that they've added a WIDE range of items that aren't in their original kickstarter - the scope creep that I mentioned.
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Well for one the kickstarter goals aren't a list of every feature the game is planned to have. It's a rought outline of what was planned and main features they want to incorporate. Hence why it actually lists it as CORE game features.

They will always add more stuff then whats listed.

As for the grid crafting system it was removed because it was arbitrary and limiting. To make a bullet you had to arrange items in a nonsensical shape in the grid for it to work, and it restricted the recipes. I mean it made no sense that I could make 3 different bullets by putting the exact same bullet tip, gunpowder and casing in the grid but I had to memorize where each item had to go in order for it to work.

All it did was make people reference 3rd party sites to show it vs trying to play guess where an item goes to try to make a bullet.

 
I have been playing the game off and on since alpha 1.

I backed the kick starter with no regrets.

I have thousands of hours played though I have skipped many of the alphas too.

I have bought the game for friends as gifts with no regrets.

That said I am a little bit frustrated with the pace of development.

I wanted NPC's in the game years ago but I don't even know where that sits on the roadmap anymore.

I wanted zombies to be more like the walking dead (100's or 1000's of shambling zombies) but I don't think the client will support that ever.

I didn't want zombes to be like left 4 dead (alien like super mutants) but I doubt that genie is ever stuffed back into the bottle.

I did expect the game to be finished by now even after madmole explained they decided to not hardcode the game for faster release.

I had hoped by now there would be a finalized framework for the game and we'd just be talking about new assets using existing framework.

 
Hi @SylenThunder!
I have a cool idea on this. At least I think my idea is cool;)

Joel once wrote that it would be nice if, in the presence of transport in the backpack, the character could experience maximum overload. If this is realized, it can also be applied to other subjects.

My idea:

It is necessary that any heavy building blocks give the character a complete overload. Put a block of concrete in a backpack, get a complete overload, and so on.

This overload should not work in the scope of the claim block and the sleeping bag.

In the task execution zone, if the task has not been completed yet, the effect of the “zone without overload” should not work either.

Also, such an area, let's call it the "area without overload", can be added for each transport. And for an early game, you can add a simple hand wheelbarrow, which can be created simply from wood.

This simple hand wheelbarrow will also have an “area without overload”, and it can be pushed in front of you, taken to mines, and so on, to drag any building materials to the construction site or to transport for subsequent transportation.

What do you think about such an implementation of realism in the game? :)
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You didn't ask me, but a) I like the enthusiasm for trying out new ideas and b) people from Ukraine need a little love from people in the U.S., given <ahem> recent events. Sorry about the mess, we're working on cleaning it up.

I think your idea is very realistic, but probably would not be an improvement to gameplay. If I understand correctly, this "complete overload" condition would mean total (or near-total) inability to move, correct? And that vehicles would be immune (can carry as much as they can fit) and also an early-game materials-only transport - the wheelbarrow - would be added.

While that is very realistic, I think it would make mining (for example) a frustrating nightmare. Instead of digging down and following the ore vein wherever it goes, using a ladder on wood frames to climb back out, we would now need to build a (perfectly realistic, in real-world terms) gentle sloping ramp into the mine so we could push our wheelbarrow up and down full of ore. (Or to ride our minibike down into the mine and back).

The realism vs. gameplay argument applies to all sorts of game mechanics, but in general "carrying stuff" has been hand-waved in almost all games which have inventory. You can always carry at least 10x more than an actual human could carry. 7D2D is a game which takes it sort of to an extreme - 12,000 concrete blocks? AND a 4x4 truck? In the backpack? Uhh, sure, okay. Unfortunately, more realistic options would probably not make the game any more fun, just more realistic.

One way to inch towards your idea would be to make the carrying of any vehicle larger than the Bicycle result in full encumbrance. Doesn't matter how many inventory slots are free, if you pick up a minibike - or a truck - you are max encumbered until you put it down. And also, no big vehicles in smaller vehicles! No storing your truck in your bicycle basket!

 
Well for one the kickstarter goals aren't a list of every feature the game is planned to have. It's a rought outline of what was planned and main features they want to incorporate. Hence why it actually lists it as CORE game features.
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By that answer, ANYTHING can be done to the game, and there IS NO ROADMAP. Because "it's only a rough outline."

 
By that answer, ANYTHING can be done to the game, and there IS NO ROADMAP. Because "it's only a rough outline."
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So u want every agonizing detail stated in the Kickstarter in about 1500 pages, and they should do exactly that, no more? No less?

 
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It is necessary that any heavy building blocks give the character a complete overload. Put a block of concrete in a backpack, get a complete overload, and so on.

What do you think about such an implementation of realism in the game? :)
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ARK and Empyrion use a similar system already. They use "weight" of items. You can only carry very limited amount of blocks as they are heavy. Depending on your stats and weight of item you may not be even able to carry one item.

You can (in Ark) use tamed dinosaurs for carrying but then you need to place them in range to access their inventory while you standing in range where you want to build, as you can't move since you picked up one item. That might be very realistic but it's overally anoying to build in such a way.

I guess that's why both ARK and Empyrion introduced a system where you can pull (or iirc even directly use) items from a nearby storage crate into your inventory. So the items are magically beamed from somewhere else into your inventory. In ARK this is some kind of magic, in Empyrion it could be explained because of its sci-fi-setting. Anyway, it's somehow anti-immersive, and just a clickbloat which makes simple things awkward without adding any meaningfull complexity.

So finally: No. I don't want to have such a system in 7d2d. It's a game, it's a zombie shooter, not a real-life-simulator. Somehow it should stay a game, it doesn't need to be overall realistic and that is not limited to this issue.

 
So u want every agonizing detail stated in the Kickstarter in about 1500 pages, and they should do exactly that, no more? No less?
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That might not be a bad idea, but no. Agonizing detail isn't needed - consistency of the world is. That's what makes a memorable thing differ from a punchline.

 
That might not be a bad idea, but no. Agonizing detail isn't needed - consistency of the world is. That's what makes a memorable thing differ from a punchline.
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I guess we just have to agree to disagree as we view the current stage of the game differently. I know they aren’t done yet and more is to come so total consistency isn’t something I demand. I hope for consistency by time the game goes gold and from what I can tell they are on track to make it happen.

They had Duke tokens in the game for a long time before traders were added. People posted at the time wondering what the devs were thinking adding such a useless item to the game. Now they are internally consistent because the development of the game has progressed to the point where they make sense.

 
The problem I was trying to emphasize is how very basic stuff is still missing from the game, while the developers seem concerned with really marginal and unimportant stuff. Whenever I read "feature X is a problem because it's too hard to do, and you shouldn't complain" my jaw drops to the floor, honestly, because it should take you 2 seconds to see how absurd it is to justify incompetence with claims of "difficulty", the world wouldn't work anymore if we all reasoned like that. We all love the fun pimps, but we should start holding them accountable for their mistakes and not just praise them for the many good things they've done, that's what I am doing and the reason I am disappointed.

This game doesn't need zombie AI, quests, "balance", that's not what this game is about! this is essentially a sandbox, and the only thing that makes it even superior to games like fallout is its potential for creativity and total immersion, the real interesting thing about 7DTD is how boundless it feels, how deep and interesting it can be. When I see developers working on NPCs, or trying to "balance" the game via the addition of grinding (like some kind of MMO) and level gating, and making the gameplay more repetitive, my heart drops and I feel sad. Such a waste of potential for a game that could have been regarded as one of the most creative and enjoyable videogames ever, instead turn into a "zombie" of different genres, with many incomplete ideas and amateurish execution of brilliant concepts..

How much time did you sink into creating the M60, or creating the horrible repetitive and soulless"quests" that this game offers at the moment, or how much time did you lose creating a new pathfinding for zombies that is to this day useless work as there will ALWAYS be a way to cheese them and make them a non-issue. How much time did you lose on useless stuff, while disregarding basic things such as deepening the crafting system (with NEW items and mechanics, not level gating stuff behind meaningless exp gathering), making the maps actually interesting and fun to explore, upgrading the technical systems to make the game presentable in 2020, and on and on and on..

I hope they refocus, and turn it around completely, but in the last year I've seen no improvements in the actually important stuff and a lot of decisions not centered about fun but around the vague concept of "balance", like this is some kind of PVP shooter with an e-sports community.. this is a small single player sandbox game, where immersion and creativity are the actual focus, not what you're doing right now.

 
The problem I was trying to emphasize is how very basic stuff is still missing from the game, while the developers seem concerned with really marginal and unimportant stuff. Whenever I read "feature X is a problem because it's too hard to do, and you shouldn't complain" my jaw drops to the floor, honestly, because it should take you 2 seconds to see how absurd it is to justify incompetence with claims of "difficulty", the world wouldn't work anymore if we all reasoned like that. We all love the fun pimps, but we should start holding them accountable for their mistakes and not just praise them for the many good things they've done, that's what I am doing and the reason I am disappointed.
This game doesn't need zombie AI, quests, "balance", that's not what this game is about! this is essentially a sandbox, and the only thing that makes it even superior to games like fallout is its potential for creativity and total immersion, the real interesting thing about 7DTD is how boundless it feels, how deep and interesting it can be. When I see developers working on NPCs, or trying to "balance" the game via the addition of grinding (like some kind of MMO) and level gating, and making the gameplay more repetitive, my heart drops and I feel sad. Such a waste of potential for a game that could have been regarded as one of the most creative and enjoyable videogames ever, instead turn into a "zombie" of different genres, with many incomplete ideas and amateurish execution of brilliant concepts..

How much time did you sink into creating the M60, or creating the horrible repetitive and soulless"quests" that this game offers at the moment, or how much time did you lose creating a new pathfinding for zombies that is to this day useless work as there will ALWAYS be a way to cheese them and make them a non-issue. How much time did you lose on useless stuff, while disregarding basic things such as deepening the crafting system (with NEW items and mechanics, not level gating stuff behind meaningless exp gathering), making the maps actually interesting and fun to explore, upgrading the technical systems to make the game presentable in 2020, and on and on and on..

I hope they refocus, and turn it around completely, but in the last year I've seen no improvements in the actually important stuff and a lot of decisions not centered about fun but around the vague concept of "balance", like this is some kind of PVP shooter with an e-sports community.. this is a small single player sandbox game, where immersion and creativity are the actual focus, not what you're doing right now.
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Exactly.

 
The problem I was trying to emphasize is how very basic stuff is still missing from the game, while the developers seem concerned with really marginal and unimportant stuff. Whenever I read "feature X is a problem because it's too hard to do, and you shouldn't complain" my jaw drops to the floor, honestly, because it should take you 2 seconds to see how absurd it is to justify incompetence with claims of "difficulty", the world wouldn't work anymore if we all reasoned like that. We all love the fun pimps, but we should start holding them accountable for their mistakes and not just praise them for the many good things they've done, that's what I am doing and the reason I am disappointed.
This game doesn't need zombie AI, quests, "balance", that's not what this game is about! this is essentially a sandbox, and the only thing that makes it even superior to games like fallout is its potential for creativity and total immersion, the real interesting thing about 7DTD is how boundless it feels, how deep and interesting it can be. When I see developers working on NPCs, or trying to "balance" the game via the addition of grinding (like some kind of MMO) and level gating, and making the gameplay more repetitive, my heart drops and I feel sad. Such a waste of potential for a game that could have been regarded as one of the most creative and enjoyable videogames ever, instead turn into a "zombie" of different genres, with many incomplete ideas and amateurish execution of brilliant concepts..

How much time did you sink into creating the M60, or creating the horrible repetitive and soulless"quests" that this game offers at the moment, or how much time did you lose creating a new pathfinding for zombies that is to this day useless work as there will ALWAYS be a way to cheese them and make them a non-issue. How much time did you lose on useless stuff, while disregarding basic things such as deepening the crafting system (with NEW items and mechanics, not level gating stuff behind meaningless exp gathering), making the maps actually interesting and fun to explore, upgrading the technical systems to make the game presentable in 2020, and on and on and on..

I hope they refocus, and turn it around completely, but in the last year I've seen no improvements in the actually important stuff and a lot of decisions not centered about fun but around the vague concept of "balance", like this is some kind of PVP shooter with an e-sports community.. this is a small single player sandbox game, where immersion and creativity are the actual focus, not what you're doing right now.
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This game was only ever purely sandbox because it was so completely unfinished when it was first released. It was always meant to be a game with rules and balance-- and over the past 6 years bit by bit those rules have been added making it more and more into a game and less and less a formless sandbox. It sounds like you mistook the unfinished simple frames and scaffolding as being the actual building somehow.

If you don't care about balance or rules then simply enable the creative menu and do whatever you like without any restrictions. The creative mode is the pure sandbox mode because you have all the toys available to you at all times. No need for "soulless" quests as you put it. All the "useless" work as you say is also the normal creative process of development. You bought into this process and if it is less DLC-esque than you were hoping I can only say that it is probably because very few companies actually treat Early Access as a true development process. The Fun Pimps could've saved themselves quite a bit of criticism by doing all their experimentation, iterating, cutting, and re-implementing completely behind closed doors before they released to Early Access but I'm glad they have allowed us to be part of it.

You bought this thinking it was supposed to be a single player sandbox. But you should know the developers are making this to be a survival, crafting, looting, base defense, character developing, zombie apocalyptic GAME that is NOT a serious simulation nor a pure unbounded sandbox.

 
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