For the jaded more proof TFP are listening

K

Kyoji

Scavenger
https://www.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/comments/1md8xbo/why_did_you_like_jars

They are genuine in trying to find solutions to problems people seem to have. Whether you like or dislike jars I think it's reassuring and nice to see the interaction between the players and developers.

Should they do this with all criticisms? No. I don't think everything demands attention. But it's nice to see them looking at all options when there is enough outreach whether they make changes or not.

I know there are some along you who think they shouldn't be doing this but I disagree. I think any game that doesn't listen to the fans is doomed to die in an echo chamber of their own affirmations. There are plenty of games, movies, etc to support that train of thought as well including Dead by Daylight, Star Wars Battlefront and even with new titles that added features requested in the first game from players like with mounts in Grounded 2.

Foe those who think they aren't listening. How many points on a map do you need to see that they are genuine in their concerns. Stop your crying and offer constructive and positive feedback for things you wish to see.
 
Kyoji said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/comments/1md8xbo/why_did_you_like_jars

They are genuine in trying to find solutions to problems people seem to have. Whether you like or dislike jars I think it's reassuring and nice to see the interaction between the players and developers.

Should they do this with all criticisms? No. I don't think everything demands attention. But it's nice to see them looking at all options when there is enough outreach whether they make changes or not.

I know there are some along you who think they shouldn't be doing this but I disagree. I think any game that doesn't listen to the fans is doomed to die in an echo chamber of their own affirmations. There are plenty of games, movies, etc to support that train of thought as well including Dead by Daylight, Star Wars Battlefront and even with new titles that added features requested in the first game from players like with mounts in Grounded 2.

Foe those who think they aren't listening. How many points on a map do you need to see that they are genuine in their concerns. Stop your crying and offer constructive and positive feedback for things you wish to see.
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It's definitely on step of many they need to take to lean back towards survival. However, I believe it's more about immersion. I'm not of the opinion that jars are inherently bad or good, but the replacement dew collectors illustrate exactly where the devs get things wrong. It's like a weird vending machine that looks like a rain collector but doesn't collect rain, and somehow manufactures the glass jars inside. Examples like this are all over the game. In the case of gas cans, I I would be ok if they made fillable cans. But at least don't go the other direction and make it even LESS realistic.
 
Immersion? Now we need plates for stews, too. Etc.

To me, the biggest immersion breaker is when I find a second Rekt. Or how quickly my character can become super good at something.

This suggests to me that it is somewhat arbitrary what we feel breaks the immersion, possibly influenced by what we are used to in other games or versions. We have obviously all agreed that we can build an impressive physique in a few days but that glass jars can't disappear like plastic wrappers, plates, etc.

As for jars, I don’t really have strong opinions. I can live with either solution. But I fear a situation where emotionally invested players can influence developers through social media campaigns. I like my games to be niche and based on thorough visions, not games developed to be liked by as many people as possible.
 
RyanX said:
I believe it's more about immersion
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Bingo. I wasn't around when organic water collection or LBD were things, but tried out the return of the bottle mod in the face of the controversy. Honestly, I think when people say "realistic" they actually mean something more along the lines of natural as opposed to artificial or, in gaming terms, gamified. The less natural it feels to do something the less immersion in the game world.

Of more import to TFP, I would think, is that their removal rendered the wilderness pointless. Wilderness now is just a whole lot of space to traverse to get from one town or city to another. *yawn* The number one advantage of organic water collection and LBD is that they made the entire map viable whereas now everyone heads straight to those towns and cities to find magazines and books. If you want to camp out in the woods or play Mountain Man, you're sol or, at least, you won't be leveling any time soon. You must spend the vast majority of your time in those towns and cities.

The no. 1 reason, I think, peeps don't think TFP are listening is because forum and other outlet visitors aren't listening and, in fact, dismissing the concerns of others out of hand.
 
I'll give them half props for going into the lions den, but let's not pretend it's not cause of the negative videos and the dropping reviews. Anyway, I like they are considering bring the Jars back. IMO the problem was always the amount you found and could craft. It just needed balancing. Either gate crafting them to late game or remove crafting them altogether. Personally I think I would prefer the former. They should be much more rare in loot as well.

As far as the Dew Collector goes, maybe it should just collect liquid now that you need a Jar to fill. Maybe also consider adding a reusable Military Canteen of various sizes that you could use to fill with clean water. I would give the Dew Collector the ability to generate just clean water as a buff and the purifier mod would have to be different item / function for that slot.
 
Personally i dont get the whole jar thing... But i do love how you used it in this post...
I 100% believe TFP's are listening. Its a shame it took a hit to their steam status for it to happen. Dont be fooled its always about the money.

Really want this game to survive the brutal reality check its currently going through. With the number of long term players that constantly turn back to 7DTD there is real hope. But its slim.

Lets hope this forum can become a place of feedback for TFP's not just an echo chamber it has been.
 
Charger265 said:
Its a shame it took a hit to their steam status for it to happen
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Why do think that is? I think it's because the feedback wasn't getting through in the first place. There are even two (and certainly not all) moderators who are in touch with the developers on these very forums who insist that any and all concerns about system mechanics can be attributed to "bitterness" or nostalgia or resistance to change and that "whining" and "crying" won't change a thing. Honestly think they could use some moderation themselves. Then, too, there are those streamers and YouTubers who are so afraid to lose their invitations to streamer weekends and the like that they sugarcoat every change whether it's actually a change for the better or not. "It is what it is," they say. But you can bet that if they desire a change, it will most likely be implemented. Example: a prominent YouTuber mourned the loss of vehicles falling apart when wrenched. The change was likely made for performance reasons. And guess what? It was reinstated the very next patch.

^That's not healthy.^ It may be the norm for the vast majority of game development, but that self-reinforcing, bubble of ignore-ance has been building for years in TFP's case. Of course, most of us are not going to be able to resist the urge to come up with theories, true or no, why TFP has done something -- to appeal to a larger audience; because profit is their only motive; etc. and so on. But this not a triple A game designed by corporate executives who don't know the first thing about video games despite how many choose to treat it as such.
 
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InfiniteWarrior said:
Why do think that is? I think it's because the feedback wasn't getting through in the first place. There are even two (and certainly not all) moderators who are in touch with the developers on these very forums who insist that any and all concerns about system mechanics can be attributed to "bitterness" or nostalgia or resistance to change and that "whining" and "crying" won't change a thing. Honestly think they could use some moderation themselves.
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Oh i have been sure to make that point in my thread "Time to reflect"
I wont claim i know the inner workings but it sure does have the feel of gate keepers and bullying mentality in complete denial.
You are right to be disgruntled about the situation and how its been handled. Lets just hope our voices are being heard and things change for the greater good of 7DTD as a whole.
 
Charger265 said:
Oh i have been sure to make that point in my thread "Time to reflect"
I wont claim i know the inner workings but it sure does have the feel of gate keepers and bullying mentality in complete denial.
You are right to be disgruntled about the situation and how its been handled. Lets just hope our voices are being heard and things change for the greater good of 7DTD as a whole.
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I didn't see that thread before this one, but I think the conversation is at least headed in the right direction. It's the game and its appeal that will be of most import to TFP. Community squabbles? Not so much. And there is some good conversation going regarding possible hybrid systems, etc.

I'm sure he doesn't want anyone to get their hopes too high, which is something he has no control over, but that Joel is actually brainstorming is a good sign. I'd just caution they're in the home stretch and major changes aren't likely to be made at this point.
 
Probably because they make sense at least that´s what many will say, i reckon it´s because people struggle with the dew collector or simply don´t want to waste a lot of space for them. Problem with jars is that there is too much water from day one.

There is a split in the community between people wanting more and harder survival, but jars aren´t good for that and the people simply wanting jars back because they make more sense and the people who want it to be easy.

If they bring back jars, they will ■■■■ off another part of the community.

I am part of the wanting more survival. I still have no clue why people struggle with the dew collector it´s easy af to have a ton of water early on. 3 Dew Collectors on day 2 is no problem at all. You need 1 book for that and not getting that at your first trader visit is very unlikely. The materials are also easiily collected. Still not a fan of the dew collector.

Water should be harder early on imo, no matter the method. If they bring back jars, they could do what DF does and gate keep the jars behind the anviil which can´t be crafted until a certain level.
 
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pApA^LeGBa said:
If they bring back jars, they will ■■■■ off another part of the community.
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I don't imagine they will if the balance issues can be worked out. Running both systems side by side as they were and are isn't an option, but balancing them with one another I wouldn't think would "■■■■ off" anyone. I can see collecting water organically and dew collectors working in tandem. Out in the wilderness and away from your dew collectors? Collect drinking water from available sources. You can still drink from available sources now after all. Only issue would be purifying it without the handy-dandy purifying helmet mod available.

I've tested out various ways people have said they play. The most enjoyable by far was to take up residence in the blue A-frame and make runs into town for things not readily available in the wilderness and that, of course, is a lot -- too much as it stands.

Walking Dead. Remember Rick Grimes, the newbie, riding into the largest city around on a horse and immediately being surrounded by zombies while he panicked atop a bus? What an idiot. Didn't he know the zombies would mostly be concentrated in the big city? Some want to play more organically; some want to play more mechanically (min-maxers). Simple as that, imo.
 
Seems everything has been written all over again, except this time on reddit with a dev name first poster to it, I guess we can call it progress if it actually does more than just ask a question and ignore and never do anything about it. Ive seen other game developers do it all the time. Ask a question and then after several weeks or months just say "we appreciate the feedback but the thing is .... we just dont like it so we wont add it back" and end of story. If jars get back I will be astonished. Jars for president!
 
OgreSlayeR said:
As far as the Dew Collector goes, maybe it should just collect liquid now that you need a Jar to fill. Maybe also consider adding a reusable Military Canteen of various sizes that you could use to fill with clean water.
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I don't think dew collectors need be changed. Just make murky water less prevalent in towns and cities. Eliminate murky water jars from toilets, for example. You want water? Work for it. Collect from the natural sources and water purification plants that serve no purpose (aside from rerouting them to fill pits and what not) and upgrade that viciously slow dew collector.
 
zztong said:
My guess is because it has been talked about here quite a bit and we're still talking about it. For Reddit and Steam I'd think stronger outreach could be important.
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It feels like they have a jar with all the platforms they are on and when it´s time to post something they draw 2 or 3 out of the jar and that´s where it´s posted. Sometimes it´s only Twitter, sometimes it´s FB and Twitter. And it´s never here. No announcement is ever posted on here, the offical forums, besides the updates. A user had to post the announcment for the town hall, that´s just sad. It´s so weird that they simply aren´t able to post such things everywhere. It´s not like it takes a lot of time do so. Unless they never heard of copy/paste....
 
pApA^LeGBa said:
It feels like they have a jar with all the platforms they are on and when it´s time to post something they draw 2 or 3 out of the jar and that´s where it´s posted. Sometimes it´s only Twitter, sometimes it´s FB and Twitter. And it´s never here. No announcement is ever posted on here, the offical forums, besides the updates. It´s so weird that they simply aren´t able to post such things everywhere. It´s not like it takes a lot of time do so. Unless they never heard of copy/paste....
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There are post everywhere mods. What's time-consuming is sifting through thousands of responses to find anything relevant.
 
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