PC Food: Survival arcade vs Survival sim

[meganoth]

Grandpa's Moonshine - massive bonuses to combat

Grandpa's Awesome Sauce - 20% boost to bartering

Grandpa's Lernin' Elixir - 20% EXP gain

Pumpkin Cheesecake - 5% boost to bartering

Beer - brawling damage/stun resist

Blackstrap Coffee - stamina regen

Steroids - strength/carrying capacity

Recog - +400% ranged damage

Fort bites - heat/cold/health/armor boost

I first wanted to list these examples too, but I assumed V is after permanent advancements aka progression. Writing this it occured to me that the ability to mass-produce some of these drugs IS a progression, very much in line with progression probably happening in Portia. So you earned a Thanks from me.

 

[Roland]

"This" is all a backdoor entry into talking about LBD....again. It is pointless because LBD is gone and the developers have definitively stated that the current system is the system that the game will release using. Even the current make-up of the system is set at this point. They will not be reconfiguring perks into new or non attribute categories, they will not be getting rid of the attributes. The debate is over and window for trying to convince them has closed. It is time to either adapt and live with it and keep playing or to cherish your memories of the time you had with the game for the price you paid, go give your negative review on Steam, and find your next obsession.

As for interconnectedness there is plenty of that. Eating better foods gives me more energy and time to do other things without having to stop and eat and/or stop and cook and /or stop and hunt/scavenge/farm for more food. Living off of canned food you will be spending a lot of time resupplying your stock. Living off of stew you will be freed up to do other activities needing to replenish yourself much less often. That means you will be able to build more, mine more, pepare more. Temporary benefits are better than permanent benefits when it comes to food and drink because when the benefit is permanent it simply gives players the incentive to spam that food in order to reach the top tier of the benefit progression as soon as possible. If the benefits are on a timer then it removes that incentive. There is no ladder to climb via stuffing your face. You eat because you want to either to assuage your hunger or for the temporary bonus when you need it.

The old wellness system was a joke. People would spam stew while sitting naked in the snow biome to jack their wellness higher in the most artificial way imaginable. It had the very same weaknesses that LBD in general carried. As soon as there is a ladder to climb and there is a repeatable action you can do to climb that ladder faster people will do it and suddenly that becomes the entire purpose of doing that action--reaching the top of the ladder AND being able to post online that you did it by day sooner-than-everyone-else. 

Now your max health and max stamina simply follow your progression as you level up. It isn't ideal because you can still affect how quickly or slowly that happens so it is still gamey-- but not nearly as gamey as the old wellness system. It is why I do prefer progression to be based on time survived rather than linked to specific actions taken. But I'm also perfectly happy letting that be an alternative gameplay option via modding rather than going on a campaign to have it be the norm for the default game. I actually enjoy playing both ways, tbh.

 

[Boidster]

Funny fact: the shortcut for the animation below is :LBD:

:deadhorse:

 

[Spider]

THE HORSE LIVES!- LBD is Back Baby! -

 

[Roland]

THE HORSE LIVES!- LBD is Back Baby! -

Yes! In exactly the manner it should be back. Thank you!!

 

[Viktoriusiii]

honestly never wanted to talk about LBD. It had more potential, but they had a different path in mind, so I don't want to argue anymore.
But it is just one of many examples, where the execution was somewhat flawed and TFPs remove/rework the whole thing instead of tweaking it. Often with the argument of "simplifying" the game.
They seem to want to do a game so simple that an ape can grasp it... but that makes it shallow.

I am not saying A18 is bad. It is a great step in the right direction and I'm sure they will improve in further alphas.
But their argumentation is flawed. That is all that I wanted to show. Complexity doesnt mean make it confusing.
Difficulty doesnt mean make it impossible on day 1.
You all had good examples on how they already do it right (seemingly by accident, when I listen to how MM phrases things). All the progression in crafting and different systems come into play over time... so why is it so hard to see that implementing a long term goal for players is needed and even new players would benefit from it.

I am not a hater. A17 was absolute poop, but A18 was playable again. BUT I do have to say that from ~A12 improvements were... nice to have... but did any of that add to the longevity of a playthrough?
No. Because they want ppl to start new games over and over. Thats why you need 99.999.999.999 (or more) xp to lvl 300.
Thats why they don't implement lategame stuff. But that is not how most ppl play open world sandbox survival games.
Except for 7d2d every new alpha... I can't remember replaying a sandbox game... (except for with friends) because it feels bad to lose all your progress.
Yes you might like it. And yes I can't speak for every person out there. But logicially... a family dad who only has 12 hours a week (at most) to play doesnt want to redo all the farming after 60 hours because he has done it all. He will change to one of the million other games.
They need to start and focus on content. Not on reworking graphics for the x-teenth time. Do that once the game is finished.
Give ppl content. Give them more to do. Give them long term goals except to build a selfdefending base.
The duke and difficulty regions are a start... but except for clearing a T5-6 tower... there is nothing to do once you have the best gear an weapons and the perfect base (~30-50 hours)

 

Grandpa's Moonshine - massive bonuses to combat

Grandpa's Awesome Sauce - 20% boost to bartering

Grandpa's Lernin' Elixir - 20% EXP gain

Pumpkin Cheesecake - 5% boost to bartering

Beer - brawling damage/stun resist

Blackstrap Coffee - stamina regen

Steroids - strength/carrying capacity

Recog - +400% ranged damage

Fort bites - heat/cold/health/armor boost

Which of these actually give you food tho?
You don't eat them for the food. You make specific alchemy. Which is nice, and actually a good example. But food is the one I was talking about and except for the cheesecake maybe (dunno) none of them are foods, they are alchemy.


PS: this new forum is nice and all... but quotes are a pain in the butt to handle! Dragging doesnt work, I can't close the quote by myself... and I can't write in front or in behind of it.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Boidster]

Which of these actually give you food tho?
You don't eat them for the food. You make specific alchemy. Which is nice, and actually a good example. But food is the one I was talking about and except for the cheesecake maybe (dunno) none of them are foods, they are alchemy.

Well, okay I guess, but they're made in exactly the same way, using exactly the same ingredients (i.e. crops) so...? A distinction without a difference? In any case I know you have a larger point to make so I don't mean to bog you down specifically with those items. Just a counter to the idea that advanced farming only means eating less often and doesn't produce advanced effects.

PS: this new forum is nice and all... but quotes are a pain in the butt to handle! Dragging doesnt work, I can't close the quote by myself... and I can't write in front or in behind of it.

Quotes can be dragged around and deleted (at least in Firefox on Windows). If you hover over the quote box you will see a little round handle appear in the top-left corner. Grab that to move the quote box where you want. Click it and then hit Delete to just remove the quote box. To write behind a quote which is at the top of your post, add a line below it and then drag the quote below that.

 

[Roland]

Also if you highlight someone's text you get a tooltip that asks if you want to quote it. So you can easily pick out sections and quote and respond.

 

[meganoth]

honestly never wanted to talk about LBD. It had more potential, but they had a different path in mind, so I don't want to argue anymore.
But it is just one of many examples, where the execution was somewhat flawed and TFPs remove/rework the whole thing instead of tweaking it. Often with the argument of "simplifying" the game.
They seem to want to do a game so simple that an ape can grasp it... but that makes it shallow.

I am not saying A18 is bad. It is a great step in the right direction and I'm sure they will improve in further alphas.
But their argumentation is flawed. That is all that I wanted to show. Complexity doesnt mean make it confusing.
Difficulty doesnt mean make it impossible on day 1.
You all had good examples on how they already do it right (seemingly by accident, when I listen to how MM phrases things). All the progression in crafting and different systems come into play over time... so why is it so hard to see that implementing a long term goal for players is needed and even new players would benefit from it.

I am not a hater. A17 was absolute poop, but A18 was playable again. BUT I do have to say that from ~A12 improvements were... nice to have... but did any of that add to the longevity of a playthrough?
No. Because they want ppl to start new games over and over. Thats why you need 99.999.999.999 (or more) xp to lvl 300.
Thats why they don't implement lategame stuff. But that is not how most ppl play open world sandbox survival games.
Except for 7d2d every new alpha... I can't remember replaying a sandbox game... (except for with friends) because it feels bad to lose all your progress.
Yes you might like it. And yes I can't speak for every person out there. But logicially... a family dad who only has 12 hours a week (at most) to play doesnt want to redo all the farming after 60 hours because he has done it all. He will change to one of the million other games.
They need to start and focus on content. Not on reworking graphics for the x-teenth time. Do that once the game is finished.
Give ppl content. Give them more to do. Give them long term goals except to build a selfdefending base.
The duke and difficulty regions are a start... but except for clearing a T5-6 tower... there is nothing to do once you have the best gear an weapons and the perfect base (~30-50 hours)

 

Start to focus on content? What else are they doing? They have graphics artists doing the graphics (and they can't do anything else) and they have designers and programmers adding new stuff like vehicles, books, new weapons, candy and food. The switch from building the underlying systems to filling the game with content happened between A17 and A18.

You are right that there is a lack of stuff for people to do who have the best gear and the perfect base. Apart from bandits I can think of only one way to effectively extend the game: A way to increase the damage of any weapon bit by bit, a long grind to find such upgrades and a series of boss-zombies with strongly increasing HPs. 

What other open world sandbox survival SINGLE PLAYER/CO-OP game do you know and how long have you played a single session in it?

 

[Roland]

For example I highlighted this section and then clicked on the quote tooltip....

Except for 7d2d every new alpha... I can't remember replaying a sandbox game... (except for with friends) because it feels bad to lose all your progress.
Yes you might like it. And yes I can't speak for every person out there. But logicially... a family dad who only has 12 hours a week (at most) to play doesnt want to redo all the farming after 60 hours because he has done it all. He will change to one of the million other games.
They need to start and focus on content. Not on reworking graphics for the x-teenth time. Do that once the game is finished.

Family dad who has only 12 hours a week to play probably hasn't played the game yet. The only people who are needing new content are us following the game for years in early access development. The game has plenty of content for the average gamer who hasn't experienced any of the content yet. Ask any Xbox player whether they think the PC version doesn't have much content and I think you'll see a new perspective.

They are trying to release this game as a polished and approachable product for all of the players out there who will experience it for the first time as a new game. So with that in mind they are doing exactly what they need to do. After the game is finished as a high quality work, THEN they can please people like us who are wanting an extension to the current game.

Nobody who is upset by restarting should be playing an early access title anyway. Sometimes I really think you forget that this game isn't made yet. You jumped in during development and they have a goal for what the game will be upon release and a goals for further content updates post release. You are coming at this too early.

If they release a DLC in 2022 that just updates the graphics and rearranges the perks instead of adding more stuff to do and craft and fight then I will stand with you against them. But for now they just need to fix water, get bandits added, and polish things up and release.

 

[Roland]

You are right that there is a lack of stuff for people to do who have the best gear and the perfect base. Apart from bandits I can think of only one way to effectively extend the game: A way to increase the damage of any weapon bit by bit, a long grind to find such upgrades and a series of boss-zombies with strongly increasing HPs. 

Actually what they could do that would ironically satisfy and please a lot of people is add a single boss and once he is dead roll the credits and THEN let the player play on forever doing whatever. That is all people really want. A final boss and a credit roll. Nobody would complain then that they would just be continuing on without end just like they do now. Really though it's mostly just the credit roll. Stick a credit roll after the 49th day horde night and people will be fist pumping that they hit endgame and then be super pleased that they get to keep playing on if they want to.

Huh....I might suggest to the devs adding a credit roll after one of the horde nights just to see the psycological effect.  I bet a bunch of people will write in thanking them for finally putting in an endgame...

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Actually what they could do that would ironically satisfy and please a lot of people is add a single boss and once he is dead roll the credits and THEN let the player play on forever doing whatever. That is all people really want. A final boss and a credit roll. Nobody would complain then that they would just be continuing on without end just like they do now. Really though it's mostly just the credit roll. Stick a credit roll after the 49th day horde night and people will be fist pumping that they hit endgame and then be super pleased that they get to keep playing on if they want to.

Huh....I might suggest to the devs adding a credit roll after one of the horde nights just to see the psycological effect.  I bet a bunch of people will write in thanking them for finally putting in an endgame...

Maybe... but it doesn't change much. Minecraft didn't add the ender dragon for ppl to have a final credit thing.
Minecraft already had stuff to do forever. Want a diamond T5 enchanted gear? add 20 hours. Want all different potions? Another 10 hours. Want to have an awesome looking base? Build another 15 hours (yeah you can do it in 7d2d too. but the focus in 7d2d isn't creativity... at least not as much). And then there is the wither, then there is electricity and different blocks that look awesome an... and... and...

There is always stuff to do in minecraft. In 7d2d once you hit a plateau... it isn't as satisfying as in minecraft to keep going. Probably because the base idea is different... but I'm not sure.
But I do not think that adding an ending scroll will fix anything. It might divert away from the problems... but it won't be satisfying, since the underlying mechanics are still as basic.

And I never said that they didn't add stuff in every alpha. And I know its not fair to compare these games, but it feels same-ish.
Look at how basic and yet convoluted electricity is. You can't build a grid, you can't interconnect it and it needs to follow a very specific line, or it won't work.
Why can't I put a solar panel and a generator on one grid? Why not 2 Generators... You know how confusing the flowthrough mechanic is to get electric doors to work?

Spoiler

I built small clocks in minecraft without tutorial, jsut by logic and I didnt get how to do it without looking it up

If you compare that with even the most basic electricity in a game like minecraft...

The vehicles are nice and one of the best parts of A17&18.
And yes the graphics have improved, but at what cost? (how many months was it pushed back?4?)
Is that really worth 3 years of development?

NPC settlements, bandits bossraids/dungeons and stuff like that could have been added... but all of that was pushed back since ~A13


I'm not saying they are lazy. Not at all. I am saying that they have reworked stuff like 10 times and didn't focus on implementing new stuff.
Yes it is their game. And yes they want to make the best game and they need solid basics... but after 7+ years... it would be nice if they could settle for stuff and give long time players something to do.


I was never a fan of "omg how long in development" but... slowly but surely I come to see it the same way... this isn't a PvP game that needs constant changes. It is mostly a single player game (sadly). It "needs" to finish and get more features someday... at least in my personal opinion.

 

[Aldranon]

If one only goes by active players, A18 would be the most successful Alpha by a good margin.

The question is: What can be done to get the numbers higher?

"Letting the glove fit the hand".

As people have different views of what fun is, the logical answer is to make the game as flexible as possible. 

-Take "Oxygen not included" for example.  They have many different world types with pros, cons and world seeds to each one.

-Take "Factorio" with more options than any game I know.  TFP are using some of that flexibility and that might be why the numbers of active players are better than before.

 

[meganoth]

But I do not think that adding an ending scroll will fix anything. It might divert away from the problems... but it won't be satisfying, since the underlying mechanics are still as basic.

I agree with VIII that it won't satisfy the players he is talking about. This would satisfy some people who don't like sandboxes because they don't get told what to do. Exactly the opposite to the people who want sandbox and endless play.

And yes the graphics have improved, but at what cost? (how many months was it pushed back?4?)
Is that really worth 3 years of development?

NPC settlements, bandits bossraids/dungeons and stuff like that could have been added... but all of that was pushed back since ~A13


I'm not saying they are lazy.

Their game, their choice where the game should eventually be. Their lack of experience to do some unneccessary detours. Other teams (even experienced ones) surely do similar mistakes where you could point to and say they wasted time. But you can't because they have at least early development if not the complete development behind closed doors (There is a recent fallout game where they just kept the detours and published, it seems )

There is no use in analyzing some old features where they went the wrong way and wasted time OR often went a way you don't like. How about staying in the here and now, you won't get anywhere by making lists of things they should have done differently. What does it matter if they put more value in graphics and made that effort? Lost of people on the forum seem to be happy about the improved graphics. You can speculate that YOUR way would have been better but you can't prove it and you can't know it.

A17 was the stage where typical EA games enter early access and let the players in to fine-tune their game. That is the stage where you mostly see stuff added. And here we are where stuff is added, even for end-game. T3 weapons are for end-game, stretching the early phase is in a way for end-game, bandits is a big one for end-game which is also the basis for other end-game stuff like faction-based quests.

Minecraft already had stuff to do forever. Want a diamond T5 enchanted gear? add 20 hours. Want all different potions? Another 10 hours. Want to have an awesome looking base?

I don't play minecraft, but isn't such stuff often added in/dependant on mods? I expect some mods to invest their energy into the end-game once 7D2D is finally ... final. For me personally 20 potions to collect sounds like stuff I would happily ignore. Diamond T5 enchanted gear yes if some zombie danger needs it. If it is just about completophobia or bragging rights, don't count me in. This is probably not what TFP is going after either and complaining won't fix their goals. Ergo wait for mods or look where their goals coincide with your goals. In this vein, whenever you mention LBD you lost their ear as well as posted a red flag to lots of people who are past the stage of "once upon a time in the ardennes".

 

[Roland]

It "needs" to finish and get more features someday... at least in my personal opinion.

I am in complete agreement. This is what I have been saying. What they have right now without any new content is a fantastic and full game that will give anyone who has never played it before potentially 100s of hours of entertainment. But the current content isn't ready for release. It needs to be fixed, polished, and optimized so that anyone who meets the spec requirements will have a fun experience and not get frustrated by stutters, glitches, and cruddy presentation. That is the "needs to finish" part.

Once the game goes gold and they continue to update it with DLCs, those should extend the game for everyone who has already played out what is currently in there: new blocks to build with, new quests to achieve, new perks, new enemies, new story, etc. That is the "get more features someday" part. 

If they add more content to keep all of us who have already played through the game several times happy right now and then in another 6 months do that again because by then we will have devoured all the new content from this time, they will never finish what they have to standard they want for gold release. Calling for extending the end game with additional content right now is premature. They have to get it done.

I agree with VIII that it won't satisfy the players he is talking about. This would satisfy some people who don't like sandboxes because they don't get told what to do. Exactly the opposite to the people who want sandbox and endless play.

heh...nothing will satisfy those players except for all new content that extends gameplay more. But how long will they be satisfied with that before they are again dissatisfied and start demanding more again? Some of those players devour new content within hours or days of releasing it because of how they play games. The credit roll was mostly a joke but really this game already has sandbox endless play as long as you are into collecting every book, building new structures, renovating existing POI's, and maxing out your character. And then there is the best option (IMO) which is to start over fresh and make different choices for some alternative challenges. Adding a credit roll wouldn't change any of that. It would just signify to the player from the developers, "You've basically won and now you can do whatever you want".

 

[Laz Man]

If you can handle the current crafting menu, you can handle it with creative blocks also.

What survival elements? The survival part is so easy already. Just do buried supplies quests at the start, buy canned food at the vending machine and you are done with the survival part.

And how would more blocks hurt the gaming performance? That makes no sense. These blocks would hurt gameperformance already as they are in the POI´s we have in the game. We have a storage full of creative menu blocks because we don´t won´t CM on all the time. I don´t see any negative impact on the performance.

I don´t want to be forced to use creative mode to have nice things also. I want to actually get the ressources and crafting for it needed whjle trying to survive vs the Z´s.

People wanna do this in MP also. There aren´t many servers, if any at all, with CM on.

It would already help a lot if we could have more colours. Can´t be that hard and doesn´t harm the game in any way.

First of all, I'm all for more blocks being craftable/lootable in vanilla (look at some of my modlets).  However there is a cost of putting them all in.

For example, horde bases.  Imagine all of the testing that would need to happen in order to ensure all of those blocks play well with each other?

People have already exploited the AI with the blocks they have currently.  Imagine the craziness if they had access to them all through crafting.  It would be exponential.  Hence why the vast majority are cm only and some even dev only.

THE HORSE LIVES!- LBD is Back Baby! -

I love how your mod page photo link is a sh*t ton of error messages lol..

 

[Spider]

lol ya I saw that but have no idea why that is  

 

[n2n1]

THE HORSE LIVES!- LBD is Back Baby! -

Oh Yes!

I also returned the LBD in CSH mod 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

If they add more content to keep all of us who have already played through the game several times happy right now and then in another 6 months do that again because by then we will have devoured all the new content from this time, they will never finish what they have to standard they want for gold release. Calling for extending the end game with additional content right now is premature. They have to get it done.

heh...nothing will satisfy those players except for all new content that extends gameplay more. But how long will they be satisfied with that before they are again dissatisfied and start demanding more again? Some of those players devour new content within hours or days of releasing it because of how they play games.

not only do I disagree... I think this is what TFPs think as well... which makes me so sad. Wanting a game that doesnt feel half finished for 6 years doesnt mean you are never satisfied.
But every time we get something new it is only half finished, then scrapped and replaced by something equally lacking.
I get not beeing happy with a system. But then the should stick with it after a while and keep notes for the future game.
It is like with anything. If you do it, scrap it and rebuild it because you think "this way it will be perfect" it will never finish and never be perfect.
A16 was close to that... It had some flaws, but they were so few and far between that more content would have been enough to satisfy most of the playerbase.
But they again scrapped the core and started rebuilding on rubble.

Just stick to your god damn guns and go with it.


Also not a fan of dlc. Make it free updates sure. But don't sell off content that gives the game its flavour. Yes it has become popular... but... sorry to say it this bluntly: I will not only not buy it but will avoid future projects. not asking for a boycott... but bad practices, no matter how common should not be rewarded.

You can make new zombie skins dlc (skins not type of zombies)
maybe a new trader or a poi package. But not core mechanics like npcs bandits and other stuff the community has been asking for for years

 

[Roland]

Who said that it would cost us anything? I mean it might but probably will be free dlc.  DLC stands for down loadable content. That can be free or they can charge for it.

I just think you are not well suited for the development process. You want to play the final version that they finally decided to stick to. A16 was not what they wanted. Why stick to those guns if they weren't happy with it? You believe A16 to be the culmination of all their efforts and then they chopped it down back to square one to try something else. As long as you believe that there is really nothing anyone can say to make you happy. I definitely don't see A16 as the culmination and A17 was not a complete restart. I see a long series of experiments and trials to reach the point where they wanted to be. In other words-- development.

It is a process that not everyone has the stomach for especially if they are the type to just go with the first idea out of the box and good or bad stick to it.