Boidster
Refugee
There was that one guy a few weeks back who said he would just eat glass if any food made him puke. Because "eat another stew" was too much work.
PC Food: Survival arcade vs Survival sim
- Thread starter Xtrakicking
- Start date
Xtrakicking
Refugee
I remember a time when having your food/water bars at 0% wouldn't kill you. No debuffs, no health loss, literally nothing. Few people noticed, because there was never any problems with food and water.
Hollowprime
Refugee
I'm just waiting for A19 to be released. Then I'll get a full picture of what the devs really care about. Is it the hardcore basebuilding survival aspect of the game? Or is it merely a looting shooting simulation where ammo and food is plentiful?
So far A18 has been clinging towards the second by removing crafting spring,mechanical components as well as oil (oil recipe was necessary in all but the desert biome) but I fear A19 will completely break the game.
So far A18 has been clinging towards the second by removing crafting spring,mechanical components as well as oil (oil recipe was necessary in all but the desert biome) but I fear A19 will completely break the game.
Liesel Weppen
Refugee
I usually play in groups of 2-4 people. And you are basically right, the first few days food is a (little) issue.
But on the other hand, one of these players uses one of his first skill points to learn master chef 1 and so can cook bacon & eggs from day 1. The most unreliable factor then is finding a cooking pot soon.
Until then players should roam around and loot bird nests for the eggs. Usually you find some animals for the meat too. Of course they should spread out, if all 4 players are just looting the same POI together, chances are low to find eggs and meat. Maybe 2 looting a POI hoping to find a cooking pot, 2 other explore the map around your starting position (and also collect wood and stone) on day 1 and 2.
On early A18 we started a game with 8 players, 3 of them experienced players and 5 absolute beginners. There it was really a struggle, because basically the 3 experienced people had to organize enough food for 8 players. Even though we told the 5 beginners to loot every bird nest they see... but however i guess they overlooked most of them. However we managed to do it. What helped a little was, if you die, you respawn with 100 food. On the one hand that prevents death-loops because you are out of food, on the other hand i even had players that prefer "strategic dying" when they ran out of food...
We usually also buy vegetables and seeds from the trader early to start a garden. However to run a garden efficiently that requires living of the land 3, for harvesting 2 vegetables per plant and being able to craft the seeds of the vegetables. Once this is setup and expanded enough, food is no issue anymore, as you can always craft vegetable stew. Especially if you play in a group it makes the game much easier if one of them goes for master chef (1) and living of the land (3, later 4).
RestInPieces
Refugee
I don't think anyone is asking you to throw high tier problems, as you call them, to the players right off the bat.
Instead of viewing them as flat tier X problems that the player will solve and be done with them in the first place, you could take a page out of your own book and make them more progressive, much like the FPS/RPG part of the game is. What this means is that the problems players face, don't abruptly slap them in the face and become irrelevant/forgettable shortly after, like a moody ex-bf/gf, but that they dynamically "change tiers" according to players' choices and progression and interacting with other systems to progressively give players more tools to increase their own QOL.
Problems that don't do that, are neither particularly engaging and their solution doesn't make for a rewarding experience, nor do they offer the smooth kind of learning curve you are looking for.
Without even reading the dev thread, I'd wager that those super-no-life fans, or whatever you'd like to call them, don't starve for super difficult inaccessible challenges or whatever, but for challenges with some decent longevity, that are not linear or abruptly solvable like needs are.
It goes without saying that accessibility should be tailored for a complete beginner, but the ability to adapt is not exclusive to devout fans. All humans have it and some of you seem to be forgetting that, thinking the player-base is something as simplistic as two groups of "casual players" and a bunch of vocal no-lifers.
A neophyte won't view the game in the same light at the very start, compared to how they will view it after just a couple of short playthroughs. This is when the largest change of perspective will take place, and other than the initial impression stage where most players will either abandon or engage with the game , this is where your real player retention capability will become apparent.
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grieferbastard
Refugee
If the survival facet of the game was based on being in an environment where food won't grow and largely isn't available it makes sense to have food security be a major challenge. Take The Long Dark as an example; food security is a daily struggle.
That doesn't make sense here. There's still food in cans and the environments are pretty friendly to food production. I do need to pay some attention to staying fed but it's one brick in a wall of 'background needs'. That's part of what builds the whole survival house.
It's also about time management. If I have to spend more time securing food needs I have less time to explore, clear POIs and do actual zombie survival stuff.
Conan Exiles, Empyrion, even ARK all have a similar approach to food security and in general it works. I don't see any benefit to this game in altering where I need to spend my time in favor of food production/management.
That doesn't make sense here. There's still food in cans and the environments are pretty friendly to food production. I do need to pay some attention to staying fed but it's one brick in a wall of 'background needs'. That's part of what builds the whole survival house.
It's also about time management. If I have to spend more time securing food needs I have less time to explore, clear POIs and do actual zombie survival stuff.
Conan Exiles, Empyrion, even ARK all have a similar approach to food security and in general it works. I don't see any benefit to this game in altering where I need to spend my time in favor of food production/management.
kexes
Refugee
Food spoilage i think can be solved through modding. But if not, i think the best solution is that the devs should add a new option to the "Survival options" section called "Food spoilage" ON / OFF switch. I think they can balance it out good, but thats not their main focus yet. Personally i look forward way more for the bandit fights than food spoilage, that they introduced idk how many alpha versions ago, and still not implemented. I hope they will add them to the game at a point finally, for many good random gunfights and possible bandit raids on your base. They can will open up a whole new experience.
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
I know I'm late... but this grinds my gears.
Same as MM said that more experienced players have different views to new players.
Back when I started with minecraft, I learned through tutorials. It was so early there was no complexity, but because nothing was explained, you had to at least somewhat look it up.
You know what I have 99% of my hours in? Tekkit. Because it gives the game a depth without changing the core principle.
This is what this forum has been saying since I first joined it. We want lategame.
But unneeded complexity.
A well done system introduces complexity as it goes.
A game I recently played again is "My time at portia" a "harvest moon" type of game.
And there are 100 different ways to make money, all of them need like 5 steps to it.
So what do they do? They introduce them in steady streams. On day 2 you can only collect debris. On day 3 you get allowance to craft tools. On day 7 you get ressources to build a garden. On day 7 you are allowed in the mine...
And so on. This continues nearly a year into the game. With more complex things coming basicially every day.
If I were thrown in this world with all the options on day 1 I would have gone mad.
And this is something that LBD did on its own. You increased as you went on to do them. So IC knowledge increased with your ooc knowledge of the best lootingspots, best ways to fight zombies and so on. Until you finally were able to attack a small village. Once you were able to take care of dogs and bees, you'd go in a city for that sweet loot.
It was a natural progression.
Now its -> Day 1 find trader and a nearby city, loot all day until horde, either cheese it by hiding on a huge city poi or have so much ammo on day 7 that you just rambo through this.
It is a looter shooter more to the likes of doom. A good one, with some funny building and crafting elements... but lets revise what lost its complexity:
Leveling has become the nr 1 thing to do. Back in the good old days it was said "OMG they level up on cacti!" and instead of removing that possibility they replaced it with a generic XP system, where you learn recipes from leveling up and you level up however you like. Which sounds fine, until you see that it completely ruins progression.
You do not need to explore anymore to get better loot. You do not need to fight any zombie to learn to hit/shoot better. You just do whatever you can grind the best with. How is that different from Cactileveling?
Take whatever excuse and put it on the cacti thing and see how well it fits.
EVERYTHING revolves around leveling. Back in the day, everything revolved around the things you did. Not only was it more immersive, it was a natural guideline to progression.
To get back at my original point after this rant:
Complexity doesnt mean overwhelming the player. It means giving a learning curve.
We get difficulty based on regions now. Which is great. It's a good example. Where you start out easy with base ressources like food dirt and stone and lots of food, but low loot, until you go deeper and you encounter more difficulties surviving because it was struck harder, but it also has better loot, meat and plants is replaced by better conserved foods until you finially make it to the irradiated area, where all the strongest enemies are, but also the loot is immense!
You can set this curve as steep as you like, because the player chooses his current capability. It doesnt mean "players will be overwhelmed". It is a natural difficulty curve and this is what players in this forum want. A longer curve that gets more difficult in the endstages. Nothing to do with the early game.
Certainly some things would do well to be more challenging early on, but that doesnt mean new players would suffer.
Ugh im ranting again. They have their vision... I disagree... strongly. But they did make a lot of good... yes awesome changes for A18... so who knows... maybe they need to walk through @%$*#! to get to the sunny side of the street... who knows.
Roland
Community Moderator
Sorry if it grinds your gears but it is absolutely true that experienced players have a different view than new players and developing the game with only experienced players in mind is a bad idea. Creating DLCs after launch with experienced players in mind in order to extend the game and add new more complex content is a good idea. Developing the base game bad idea.
But you didn't start with Tekkit. You graduated to it after playing the base game for x number of hours. The developers are working on the base game. Late game complexity for experienced players are for after launch DLCs for the purpose of extending the life of the game. The devs will do some of this (for 2 years after gold they have said) and modders will also contribute to this. The fact that what you care about most is lategame is proof that TFP must not let you distract them from what they are doing right now which is: Getting the base game polished and ready for release. They have stated a number of times that they are concerned with getting the first 30 hours of gameplay solid for release. Then they can add and extend with more complexity.
Meh...7 Days is the same. You don't start with all five workstations and all the perks and crafting recipes for all the weapons. You gain those a little at a time as you play. At first all you have to worry about is crafting and using a fireplace. That's it. The forge comes next and so on. Hooking up electrical systems and traps and security cameras and battery banks or solar panels comes much later. None of that complexity is thrown at the player on day 1 but slowly over time as they progress.
Oi Vey....
Any progression system does that. The one we have now accomplishes it very well. Yes, you don't prefer the perk purchasing system compared to the LBD system and that's fine but to say LBD moves a player from being basic to complex all on its own is like advertising that Apples are gluten free....
Buying perks one by one ALSO moves a character from basic to complex on its own.
See? You are not late to this conversation after all, you are just much too early. The developers are focused on getting their base game finished and you are longing for the DLCs that will come post launch. As far as polish and refinement go I think this game is just barely approaching "My Time in Portia" when it was first released to early access. Obviously a ton of work went into Portia behind closed doors. They didn't share the early development of that game like TFP has been sharing the early development of this game. And then there's your point about Tekkit for Minecraft. That added complexity you are craving comes from a mod and not the base game which is simpler. This is the correct model. The developers create a platform that is approachable and simple and modders build off of that to offer complexity and new play options.
Btw...I looked up Tekkit and.... $149/month? What the hell is that about?
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Deadalready
Refugee
I disagree with the notion that struggling for food/water should be a prevailent thing through out the whole game.
It's not a great system but I feel like had they tweaked the numbers it would've worked. Thoughts on how things could've been better.
- It's currently not really that fun
- Repeating a not fun gameplay loop is x2 not fun
- I'd rather spend my time doing actually stuff like driving vehicles, building amazing bases, completing quests
- This is negative reinforcement, no benefits for having fullness over 100% but the instant either our food or water drops below 100% we immediately suffer consequences.
- Join an established multiplayer server and often you are boned, cupboards all looted, pots all gone, more players means a smaller chance of animals actually spawning near you.
It's not a great system but I feel like had they tweaked the numbers it would've worked. Thoughts on how things could've been better.
- High tier foods (especially those with double cooking) should have a lower food poisoning amount = investment should be rewarded
- It was insulting that base foods recovered no stamina/food finding, even things like cornbread/baked potatoes/charred meat were negligable to the point it just wasn't worth using them. Blueberries give something like 1 hp/stamina!?! Corn Bread was worth 5 food stamina?
- Instead of instantly dropping our food, it should probably be a timed decay allowing players to attempt to cure the problem with meds
- Food/hunger should be a slider in server settings allowing for masocists to set how much of a problem hunger is. There people who want to spend the whole game farming food can get their fun and those who don't care for it are happy too.
- For the love of god, put food and water back on the HUD again.
pApA^LeGBa
Hunter
Not on topic i know, but why do they cut down on the players ability to build so hard then? If you look everywhere else except this forum, you will see people love to build and will constantly rant why you can´t craft every block that is in the game. I know Joel wants the game to look worn out. Nothing stops him from doing that, but why can´t we have nice things to build? Doesn´t change the original look of the game, it´s not that people are going to rebuild the whole map. And tbh why the heck does he care how people want their bases and homes to look like?
You can´t tell people who don´t know this game that they can build what ever they want. Huge chance they miss out on here imo.
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Laz Man
Fun Pimps Staff
That's why there is a creative mode menu where you have access to 99% of the games blocks.
This is probably done for several reasons. (maintain survival elements, reduce craft menu clutter, game performance, etc.)
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pApA^LeGBa
Hunter
If you can handle the current crafting menu, you can handle it with creative blocks also.
What survival elements? The survival part is so easy already. Just do buried supplies quests at the start, buy canned food at the vending machine and you are done with the survival part.
And how would more blocks hurt the gaming performance? That makes no sense. These blocks would hurt gameperformance already as they are in the POI´s we have in the game. We have a storage full of creative menu blocks because we don´t won´t CM on all the time. I don´t see any negative impact on the performance.
I don´t want to be forced to use creative mode to have nice things also. I want to actually get the ressources and crafting for it needed whjle trying to survive vs the Z´s.
People wanna do this in MP also. There aren´t many servers, if any at all, with CM on.
It would already help a lot if we could have more colours. Can´t be that hard and doesn´t harm the game in any way.
What survival elements? The survival part is so easy already. Just do buried supplies quests at the start, buy canned food at the vending machine and you are done with the survival part.
And how would more blocks hurt the gaming performance? That makes no sense. These blocks would hurt gameperformance already as they are in the POI´s we have in the game. We have a storage full of creative menu blocks because we don´t won´t CM on all the time. I don´t see any negative impact on the performance.
I don´t want to be forced to use creative mode to have nice things also. I want to actually get the ressources and crafting for it needed whjle trying to survive vs the Z´s.
People wanna do this in MP also. There aren´t many servers, if any at all, with CM on.
It would already help a lot if we could have more colours. Can´t be that hard and doesn´t harm the game in any way.
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MM hinted at a performance reason:
https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/16394-alpha-19-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=360510
Obviously this is only a reason not to include things like microwave ovens, intricate lamps etc, not for simple wall textures.
pApA^LeGBa
Hunter
Lamps? But the superbright lanterns and spotlights don´t hurt perfomance? Well i don´t understand anything of programming but that seems a bit odd. I really hope the lightning gets an overhaul sometimes. It´s either dimm or superbright right now unless you play around with hiding the lightsource behind blocks. Wich is an annoying task with only mediocre results tbh.
I have about 50 bookshelves in my last villa, in one corner of a 3 story house. No FPS drops.
I have about 50 bookshelves in my last villa, in one corner of a 3 story house. No FPS drops.
Light definitely tanks FPS. I once put about 50 torches on a slope on a rather low-end PC. Looking at the lights removed 20 FPS (if I remember correctly). But light is a neccessity in this game, much like zombies. Draw-call-expensive furniture is not.
That post by madmole was about the new bookshelves in A19. Look at the pictures MM recently posted on twitter, you'll know what I mean.
pApA^LeGBa
Hunter
Why is a small lantern brighter than a studio light then? Propably due to early access and them working on it at later point in time. I hope. And if bandits don´t radically change the endgame, draw-call-expensive furniture is the only thing left in endgame....
Viktoriusiii
Refugee
If it was like more story or something... sure.
But I am talking about core systems. Things that should interact with each other. Again portia, since you seem to know it:
Mining influences-> crafting which influences contracts which give relationship, money and workshop ranking.
but also -> data discs and relics which give you church "tech" and advanced tech like better forges.
So I can influence money, relationships, workshopranking, technology, farming, relics and an overall growth of your land.
One thing is interconnected to all those things.
I could give other examples how doing dungeons does the similar, but can also be done via contract of your own...
It is interconnected.
Lets compare it with the food system in A18.
Better farm gives better food, less cahnce for poisoning, meaning you need to eat less...
But it doesnt connect to the other gameplay elements. Its a minigame within the game with no real connection.
It doesnt keep zombies away/lure them to you, you do not gain health, you don't have an advantage while looting or shopping.
It is a loop that doesnt interact with the other systems.
Loads of repeating evidence incoming, just skip for the base argument.
In previous alphas (I know some is coming back, just as an example) food that you kept on you lured zombies to you. Good food gave you more health and stamina, meaning easier fights and more stamina to farm and run longer distances. That was somewhat connected.
And this is what I meant by LBD. The xp system is not connected to the rest of the game.
Yes you get +1 fortitude, you have better stamina and health... but why? Because you farmed xp.
You get stronger, why? Xp farm.
Better prices, loot, farm, cooking? All because of xp.
So you say "but you can earn xp by doing everything, so it is interconnect!"
But it is not worth the same.
If I mine in MtiP I do it, because I need the ressources. The rest are sideproducts.
If I kill Z's in 7d2d I do it for xp. If I do a quest, I do it for the loot and the xp.
Since the only way to effectively improve certain things, XP is the most valuable thing out there and farming it (on harder difficulties) is nearly mandated to survive.
Yes you get better by looting. Maybe you even get better by building a better base... But what is interconnected about all these systems?
Mining gives building mats and XP. With the building mats... I can only build stuff that I learned... with xp (and to say something positive, some recipes in A18. Not all is bad
)
This kind of interconnectivity is the complexity we want.
If we mine, we do attract zombies, which means we need medicine and a weapon on our mining run.
THAT is a connection between systems. And is something that was reduced by TFPs a lot.
And this is what I meant by LBD. The xp system is not connected to the rest of the game.
Yes you get +1 fortitude, you have better stamina and health... but why? Because you farmed xp.
You get stronger, why? Xp farm.
Better prices, loot, farm, cooking? All because of xp.
So you say "but you can earn xp by doing everything, so it is interconnect!"
But it is not worth the same.
If I mine in MtiP I do it, because I need the ressources. The rest are sideproducts.
If I kill Z's in 7d2d I do it for xp. If I do a quest, I do it for the loot and the xp.
Since the only way to effectively improve certain things, XP is the most valuable thing out there and farming it (on harder difficulties) is nearly mandated to survive.
Yes you get better by looting. Maybe you even get better by building a better base... But what is interconnected about all these systems?
Mining gives building mats and XP. With the building mats... I can only build stuff that I learned... with xp (and to say something positive, some recipes in A18. Not all is bad
)This kind of interconnectivity is the complexity we want.
If we mine, we do attract zombies, which means we need medicine and a weapon on our mining run.
THAT is a connection between systems. And is something that was reduced by TFPs a lot.
and another rant... I feel like that is all I do... just read what RestinPieces is saying. He can put it into words much more eloquently than I can
Also... not to hate on TFPs. But the team of MtiP got two mails from me... they responded to BOTH in detail AND implemented my suggestions.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one saying it, but they took advice to heart and tried to make the best game they could.
It was the reason I descided to actually buy the game. (demo and acc sharing before)
With TFPs, I have only see them accept feedback twice. And that was firezombie and bearmodel.
I'm not saying thats the only two times. But often it feels more like a "we know better and we will make it" rather than "we understand your concern and am working on a solution, but it might take a while so please be patient.
A17 wasn't easy for anyone. Fans pressured to get a new release, they wanted to release it for the wintersales and so much negative feedback can change your patience and character. But it was the time I stopped... loving the game, because the devs do not acknowledge long time players input.
As if we didn't know that new players have a different view. As if we are just sheep making stupid noises and only the farmer knows whats good for them.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one saying it, but they took advice to heart and tried to make the best game they could.
It was the reason I descided to actually buy the game. (demo and acc sharing before)
With TFPs, I have only see them accept feedback twice. And that was firezombie and bearmodel.
I'm not saying thats the only two times. But often it feels more like a "we know better and we will make it" rather than "we understand your concern and am working on a solution, but it might take a while so please be patient.
A17 wasn't easy for anyone. Fans pressured to get a new release, they wanted to release it for the wintersales and so much negative feedback can change your patience and character. But it was the time I stopped... loving the game, because the devs do not acknowledge long time players input.
As if we didn't know that new players have a different view. As if we are just sheep making stupid noises and only the farmer knows whats good for them.
Nice example with the food that lures zombies to you BUT that has absolutely nothing to do with LBD.If it was like more story or something... sure.
But I am talking about core systems. Things that should interact with each other. Again portia, since you seem to know it:
Mining influences-> crafting which influences contracts which give relationship, money and workshop ranking.
but also -> data discs and relics which give you church "tech" and advanced tech like better forges.
So I can influence money, relationships, workshopranking, technology, farming, relics and an overall growth of your land.
One thing is interconnected to all those things.
I could give other examples how doing dungeons does the similar, but can also be done via contract of your own...
It is interconnected.
Lets compare it with the food system in A18.
Better farm gives better food, less cahnce for poisoning, meaning you need to eat less...
But it doesnt connect to the other gameplay elements. Its a minigame within the game with no real connection.
It doesnt keep zombies away/lure them to you, you do not gain health, you don't have an advantage while looting or shopping.
It is a loop that doesnt interact with the other systems.
Loads of repeating evidence incoming, just skip for the base argument.
In previous alphas (I know some is coming back, just as an example) food that you kept on you lured zombies to you. Good food gave you more health and stamina, meaning easier fights and more stamina to farm and run longer distances. That was somewhat connected.
And this is what I meant by LBD. The xp system is not connected to the rest of the game.
Yes you get +1 fortitude, you have better stamina and health... but why? Because you farmed xp.
You get stronger, why? Xp farm.
Better prices, loot, farm, cooking? All because of xp.
So you say "but you can earn xp by doing everything, so it is interconnect!"
But it is not worth the same.
If I mine in MtiP I do it, because I need the ressources. The rest are sideproducts.
If I kill Z's in 7d2d I do it for xp. If I do a quest, I do it for the loot and the xp.
Since the only way to effectively improve certain things, XP is the most valuable thing out there and farming it (on harder difficulties) is nearly mandated to survive.
Yes you get better by looting. Maybe you even get better by building a better base... But what is interconnected about all these systems?
Mining gives building mats and XP. With the building mats... I can only build stuff that I learned... with xp (and to say something positive, some recipes in A18. Not all is bad
This kind of interconnectivity is the complexity we want.
If we mine, we do attract zombies, which means we need medicine and a weapon on our mining run.
THAT is a connection between systems. And is something that was reduced by TFPs a lot.
and another rant... I feel like that is all I do... just read what RestinPieces is saying. He can put it into words much more eloquently than I can
Also... not to hate on TFPs. But the team of MtiP got two mails from me... they responded to BOTH in detail AND implemented my suggestions.
Obviously, I wasn't the only one saying it, but they took advice to heart and tried to make the best game they could.
It was the reason I descided to actually buy the game. (demo and acc sharing before)
With TFPs, I have only see them accept feedback twice. And that was firezombie and bearmodel.
I'm not saying thats the only two times. But often it feels more like a "we know better and we will make it" rather than "we understand your concern and am working on a solution, but it might take a while so please be patient.
A17 wasn't easy for anyone. Fans pressured to get a new release, they wanted to release it for the wintersales and so much negative feedback can change your patience and character. But it was the time I stopped... loving the game, because the devs do not acknowledge long time players input.
As if we didn't know that new players have a different view. As if we are just sheep making stupid noises and only the farmer knows whats good for them.
Lets talks mining in A18/A19. Doing mining in a perk system literally means you put points into mining perks. This is what you don't like and want mining itself to do it, hence LBD. But all those interconnections exist or not independant of the LBD-or-perk system .
For example mining perks give you the ability to build better tools (see your point above about "and advanced tech"). There would be no problem also giving the ability to build a better forge at a higher mining perk. Similar "connections" to other fields of endeavour could be added if it made sense and such systems as guilds/groups and interconnected tech trees existed at all.
You yourself derailed your argument by assuming this has much to do with LBD.
Specifically a game like portia has a different focus (it is a life simulation) and resources that had to be put into zombies, a voxel-world, procedural world generation, were put into a more complex economy and society system. In A18 we still don't have the Duke and White River in the game, how are they supposed to add reputation in a meaningful way for example?
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Boidster
Refugee
Grandpa's Moonshine - massive bonuses to combat
Grandpa's Awesome Sauce - 20% boost to bartering
Grandpa's Lernin' Elixir - 20% EXP gain
Pumpkin Cheesecake - 5% boost to bartering
Beer - brawling damage/stun resist
Blackstrap Coffee - stamina regen
Steroids - strength/carrying capacity
Recog - +400% ranged damage
Fort bites - heat/cold/health/armor boost