PC Food for Thought on Perks and Balancing

[Genthro1]

There are many Challenges that are facing 7D2D in my personal opinion

Challenge #1 Useless Perks and What Makes Them Useless.

Currently right now a multitude of perks feel useless or only partially useful for a small portion of the game.

A non-comprehensive list of useless perks or at best semi-useful: Animal Tracker, Master Chef, Pack Mule, and Well Insulated.

The above list of perks are just a few of the ones that are either useless, or quickly become useless. I know some people out there might be saying, "Useless??" I understand that every perk might have a use in a very specific style of game play; however, over all these perks are quickly outdone by gear or simply the acquisition of items/schematics.

Animal Tracker: This skill on it's own, having to crouch to be able to track animals, might be useful in some style of play, but personally I have witnessed many a streamer, and myself, just run across random live animals making this skill sub par. Now if you didn't have to crouch and it warned you that an animal was in the vicinity and then you crouched to pinpoint the direction, that would be something useful. Probably a lot less animals escaping my notice at that point.

Master Chef: This perk is quickly outdone by the amount of food you naturally find, and the amount of cooking schematics that are in loot. When I who have no points in cooking can make everything, and my partner who has put points into it can not make everything then something is wrong. In addition to these points, many times we just subsist off of canned foods as there are zero chances of food poisoning and dysentery which add to the uselessness of this perk. (Please consider locking learning schematics behind certain levels of perks OR giving people who have used both the schematic and the perk a HUGE discount in materials or even the ability to make tier 6 preferably the only way to make tier 6)

Pack Mule: I played in earlier versions and remember Pack Mule being a necessity, so when I came back to A18 I instantly started picking this up so that I wouldn't be encumbered. I quickly found out that if I just had some patience I would not have needed this perk at all with Pocket Mods.

Well Insulated: Clothing provides enough heat/cold resist that even in the coldest areas if I just take the right clothing with me I am absolutely fine. No need to care about this perk.

Just like there are worthless perks there are perks that have so much power behind them that I find it hard to pass up taking:

Lucky Looter

Healing Factor

And then your weapon of choice perk

I am not saying to nerf the perks that are taken constantly, I am stating the very opposite.

The question that needs to be asked is "What makes the worthless perks worthless and how can it be changed?" It is my opinion that what makes these perks worthless is that they are easily replicated by items or their bonus is given thru a schematic, making it pointless to continue beyond certain levels if you ever even started it at all.

Master Chef: A player should be able to learn from schematics how to make the Basic Tier 1 Recipes, Bacon and eggs, boiled and grilled meats, baked potatoes, cornbread, teas and coffee, and then even the tier 2 Recipes. The player should not be able to learn T3, T4, or T5. Without having the T1 perk minimum, I would even go as far as saying in order to learn a T5 recipe that you need to have the T3 perk. The other side of this is I would also suggest that a player who has both the perk and the schematic get a bonus; less materials used in cooking, longer buff duration, less chance of food poisoning, and things along those aspects.

Advanced Engineering: Players should be able to learn the ability to learn schematics that coincide with T1 and T2 of the perk, but should be required to have T1 to learn a T3 schematic, T2 to learn a T4 schematic, and T3 to learn a T5 schematic. Why? To prevent things like a player who gets extremely lucky just learning how to make a crucible with having zero points in Advanced Engineering.

Locking the ability to learn schematics behind having certain tiers of respective perks would create a more organic character progression. You can still be the solo player, but it will take a bit more work and you may have to go to T3 in certain perks to make it.

Another way to deal with some of the worthless perks is to get rid of the current attribute gains. IE: Weapon does x more damage for head shots with a chance to dismember. (This type of bonus honestly feels like it should be in the weapon specific perks.) Instead, roll some of the least chosen perks straight into the attributes. Below are some suggestions, but for game play balance changes would probably need to be made.

Perception = Animal Tracker

Strength = Pack Mule

Fortitude = Well Insulated and Iron Gut

Agility = Parkour

Intelligence = Unknown (Without moving perks around personally I'd put Cooking in here)

Challenge #2 is the organic growth of the characters. How much is too much and how much is too little?

Scratching the surface, we are talking about Level Gain VS EXP Gain VS Loot Level Gain. In many games that I have played and tested out different ways of doing things, one thing always bothered me and that was the loot progression of killing zombies, and looting random houses or PoI would out due our crafters. This means that by the time a Miner 69er could make T3 tools, I have already looted T4 or T5 tools sometimes even steel T3 or T4. By the time my ally who was running AK47s could make T3 AK47s I had found a pair of T5's. Unfortunately it's not just one run through that things like this happen, it is a consistent problem that while progressing to make T5 tools/weapons we have already looted them or greater.

Solution? Vanilla xp with 2x Skill point gain AFTER the starting missions. I would even suggest at lvl 10 the Skill points drop to one from that point out. This creates a situation where your crafters are making better gear than is being found.

Steel Tools being locked behind schematics is great, however, being locked behind schematics and having to find steel tools to break down is not. I would choose one and let the other go. An example would be to have the tool parts locked behind a schematic, and allow the players to make steel pick heads but need to have the schematic to make steel tool parts to be able to complete the creation. Also in order to learn said steel tool schematic you should have to have T3 Miner 69er (or the respective perk should it change).

Doing a double lock like it is now is ... strange.

 

[ElCabong]

They are going to change the perks in A19. Yeah a lot of perks aren't getting used

the perks you choose depend upon the character your building and how you build it. If you pick pack mule that frees up slots in your armor that you don't have to use for cargo mods you can use it for something else.

 

[Kubikus]

I agree insofar that I would not buy any of these perks you mention, and on top of these, I would not buy any recipe perk for any gun (you find them) and any recipe that can be found as a book. But still, it's allright for them to be there, because - assuming we accept the overall perky design of the game - a player who isn't you or me might actually think it's worth buying a cooking perk. Cuz they like cooking.

Personally I wish the perk trees would allow or force the player to build more distintive and different characters. My 100hr A18 game showed that you don't need to buy any perk at all to be effective. All weapons are good enough without perks. Your stamina is good enough, well - simply everyything is good enough without perks. It would be - accepting and embracing the perk-design - much greater if you simply couldn't do certain things without going down that perk route. Traps vs melee vs ranged vs stealth. Etc. For example ranged: Without going down the perk route, you can use the primitive bow and that's it. Need a perk to even use a pistol. That would, of course, need other perk-trees to be viable, you'd have to be able to survive horde night and clear out skyscrapers full of radiated zombies with only melee or traps. Or stealth? Probably impossible.

 

[Khulkhuum]

I think it all is a matter of preference. You have a choice to either use perks or equipment, the latter allowing you to easily shift a setup towards something else. Lets go by examples.

Well insulated - Either you put mods into armor or sp into a skill. I have the best xlothes for heat and cold, yet without mods i am still getting debuffs in snow and desert. If i had a build that favoured the trait under which WI is, i would put a couple points also just so i could use the free mod slots for something else. Believe me, i would gladly use it.

Pack Mule - similar as above. I have triple pocket mods, but couldbas well invest points into skill (i do have high enough Str) so i could substitute some Pocket mods with something else. Right now, gathering points for other things, but surely i will do it at some point.

Animal Tracker - if it werent for wolves, i wouldnt have as much meat as i have. Very rarely do i see a doe or a deer. Seen a couple "pigs", but no rabbits and no chickens. Through all of my playthrough.

Parkour - useful due to higher jump, the fall height saver exchangeable for 1 mod (except for really high falls) or with reading a book (that allows safe fall from high while having tokens in inventory). I use the mod, but xould go with the skill if i had appropriate trait and free SP.

 

[Ac75]

Much of what you’re taking about is just bad changes they made after A16

really - read it

thats almost all bad post-a16 additions and changes

i do actually like the Hunter perk - because it’s a good gameplay mechanic and it can be fun for one person intnthe group to spec it

i still think it’s on the long list of tweaks post A16 that did more harm than good though, the changes to the skill tree that is

 

[Scyris]

I agree insofar that I would not buy any of these perks you mention, and on top of these, I would not buy any recipe perk for any gun (you find them) and any recipe that can be found as a book. But still, it's allright for them to be there, because - assuming we accept the overall perky design of the game - a player who isn't you or me might actually think it's worth buying a cooking perk. Cuz they like cooking.
Personally I wish the perk trees would allow or force the player to build more distintive and different characters. My 100hr A18 game showed that you don't need to buy any perk at all to be effective. All weapons are good enough without perks. Your stamina is good enough, well - simply everyything is good enough without perks. It would be - accepting and embracing the perk-design - much greater if you simply couldn't do certain things without going down that perk route. Traps vs melee vs ranged vs stealth. Etc. For example ranged: Without going down the perk route, you can use the primitive bow and that's it. Need a perk to even use a pistol. That would, of course, need other perk-trees to be viable, you'd have to be able to survive horde night and clear out skyscrapers full of radiated zombies with only melee or traps. Or stealth? Probably impossible.

The int crafting perks also let you craft things faster and often at a lower material cost, thats the bonus to them, even though every recipe can be learned thru a lootable schematic. Only int stat skill I get is adv engineering 1, for the forge unlock and 20% faster forge crafting time, I literally do not touch int for anything else, as I'd rather spend them in str or fort, stuff thats actually useful all the time like healing factor, sex t-rex, miner69'er, motherload, shotgun is really good now in a18.4 and sledgehammer is by far the best melee weapon period due to its almost guarnteed knockdown on every swing at higher perk levels. This forces me to rely on rng to find the recipes I need, but I actually like it this way, makes every game different. My current game I am on day 15 and still have not found a cruicble or the schmatic to make one. I've had to rely on steel via buying it off traders, so my base is not upgraded to steel as I been using the steel to make mods for tools and weapons etc. I also do not have a cement mixer yet either, I rely on one about 100m away from base in a poi to make cement in. The poi I am using as a base though, the zombies only come in from 1 direction so I only need to really fortify the front. They ignore the back and sides and never damage them. I'm going to have issues when demo zombies start showing up though, going to have to think of a counter for them. I'm thinking a outer wall maybe 7-8 blocks out in a arrowhead shap to funnel them in at the point, so if the demo blows up it won't hit my base.

As for radiated zombies, sledgehammer can do the job, and to a lesser extend so can a baseball bat. Power attack to the torso with a steel sledge knocks down almost anything on its arse. Then you got free headshots as it gets back up. It swings slow though so if you DO miss it REALLY hurts lol. Thats why I aim for power attacks to the torso on runners, almost guarnteed knockdown or a flinch at least to give me time for a followup hit. The rest of the melee weapons are sadly, kinda useless late game. They lack the damage and the secondary effects to make them actually viable. You notice the issue more the higher up you go in difficulty. The games default difficulty is basically set to "easy" now, where players deal 125% dmg to zombies and zombies do 75% of their damage to players. At that difficulty anything works pretty much, but try playing on warrior, zombies deal 50% more damage to the player, and player deals 13-17% less to zombies. Then you start to notice how other than sledge and clubs(namely baseball bat) the other melee weapons just aren't viable anymore as they just lack the damage and the secondary effects (Knockdown is king in 7dtd and sledge and clubs has it the most).

I feel they should have left the learn by doing system in but only for weapons, mining tools and their assoiated perks. So instead of needing 7 str to get say sledgehammer 4, you need 60 or 70 skill in sledgehammer to get the perk. perk still controls level of sledge you can craft etc. Instead they went with this crappy system of locking things to stats, and even then they did it in a piss-poor way. I'd have rathed them had the stats right, then 2 more stats: Ranged weaponry and Melee weaponry. Or even instead os stats, each category has its own line of perks, you got: ranged weapon, melee weapons, Engineering, Survival, and then 1 other category.

The devs though don't seem to wanna change it anymore, so were probally stuck with the stupid stat system. Which makes me sad as I like using pistols, but I find most of the agility perks worthless for my playstyle so I just can't spare the points, stealth is broken in 7dtd sadly. I do however get level 1 in the crit hit perk even with 0 agi as its a flat 50% dmg increase to any sneak attack with any weapon.

The current skill system is actually really good from a multiplayer view, but it really hurts the single player experence as we just do not have enough points early to get everything you need, so we suffer for it as we don't have others to rely on to make things for us.

 

[Genthro1]

The current skill system is actually really good from a multiplayer view, but it really hurts the single player experence as we just do not have enough points early to get everything you need, so we suffer for it as we don't have others to rely on to make things for us.

I respectfully disagree.

From a multiplayer point of view, the game loot progresses far faster than one is able to craft the equivalent Tier. While everyone has their own play style and preference, it is my belief that looting things should not out level a person who has decided to go crafting.

A quick example of the loot out classing the crafting capability is from my most recent game 4 of us started out on vanilla warrior settings.

I decided to go lucky looter first, my friend decided he was going to be a crafter.

Day 1, took some work and stealth + kitting but I found a shotgun T2 and a measly sum of 7 shells. This in of itself is not bad.

Day 4 I just hit lvl 6

Current Build on Day 4 is Lucky Looter 4, Healing Factor 1. Gear T2 Shotgun 45 Shells, T1 Pistol + Silencer near 100 bullets, Lucky Goggles

Cleared out a fetch and clear quest, amongst the loot found a T5 Rifle, and a T5 Hunting Knife This is the imbalance that I refer too, it is clear that no one should be able to make T5 of anything at lvl 6.

Level required to make

T5 Hunting Knife = 9

Level required to make

T5 Rifle = 9

It is in my own personal opinion that looters should not be able to find items of higher quality than a crafter who single minded went down the crafting path nor should it be assumed that a crafter would put all of his or her skill points into a single perk to max out the ability to be able to craft with the restrictions of having to find similar equipment and break it down before hand.

With that in mind I would say T4/T5 gear should not be being found until the players are at least lvl 18 and then it should be rare and lucky to find that caliber of item.

 

[BobTheBard]

Something to consider is that for a lot of things - weapons, tools, armor - you only ever need one of them at a high quality. It's pointless to craft any more than that. So the current crafting system as a perk tree is mainly for repetitive crafting, making things you're going to make a lot of, like ammunition, construction materials, traps, etc. While I feel this diminishes the use of crafting as a playstyle, it is how it is for a reason.

 

[Ac75]

Game is now “7 Ways to ruin your game since A16”

 

[Kubikus]

The int crafting perks also let you craft things faster and often at a lower material cost, thats the bonus to them, even though every recipe can be learned thru a lootable schematic. Only int stat skill I get is adv engineering 1, for the forge unlock and 20% faster forge crafting time, I literally do not touch int for anything else, as I'd rather spend them in str or fort, stuff thats actually useful all the time like healing factor, sex t-rex, miner69'er, motherload, shotgun is really good now in a18.4 and sledgehammer is by far the best melee weapon period due to its almost guarnteed knockdown on every swing at higher perk levels. This forces me to rely on rng to find the recipes I need, but I actually like it this way, makes every game different. My current game I am on day 15 and still have not found a cruicble or the schmatic to make one. I've had to rely on steel via buying it off traders, so my base is not upgraded to steel as I been using the steel to make mods for tools and weapons etc. I also do not have a cement mixer yet either, I rely on one about 100m away from base in a poi to make cement in. The poi I am using as a base though, the zombies only come in from 1 direction so I only need to really fortify the front. They ignore the back and sides and never damage them. I'm going to have issues when demo zombies start showing up though, going to have to think of a counter for them. I'm thinking a outer wall maybe 7-8 blocks out in a arrowhead shap to funnel them in at the point, so if the demo blows up it won't hit my base.

I really don't know the perks well, there are a few that I'm "aware of" (yet would have to look where they are), but in general I couldn't suggest anything or so. But: When I can easily survive and kick butt without buying a single perk, even as a 7dtd god, something is not quite right.
Is that a wrong opinion? I've never liked perks, maybe that's not unusual?

As for radiated zombies, sledgehammer can do the job, and to a lesser extend so can a baseball bat. Power attack to the torso with a steel sledge knocks down almost anything on its arse. Then you got free headshots as it gets back up. It swings slow though so if you DO miss it REALLY hurts lol. Thats why I aim for power attacks to the torso on runners, almost guarnteed knockdown or a flinch at least to give me time for a followup hit. The rest of the melee weapons are sadly, kinda useless late game. They lack the damage and the secondary effects to make them actually viable. You notice the issue more the higher up you go in difficulty. The games default difficulty is basically set to "easy" now, where players deal 125% dmg to zombies and zombies do 75% of their damage to players. At that difficulty anything works pretty much, but try playing on warrior, zombies deal 50% more damage to the player, and player deals 13-17% less to zombies. Then you start to notice how other than sledge and clubs(namely baseball bat) the other melee weapons just aren't viable anymore as they just lack the damage and the secondary effects (Knockdown is king in 7dtd and sledge and clubs has it the most).

I'm saying that you should a) be forced to buy perks to be effective, b) have to go down certain perk-routes, that c) are all viable. So it's not about that you currently can melee radiated zombies, but it needs to be so that without going down a certain perk-road, you would certainly not be able to do that. And if you go down that route, you should be able to dive straight into a horde of radiated zombies and kill em all. Like you can dive into a horde of radiated zombies with a machine gun and kill em all. The trap master would use those scrap turrets or the drones I read about.

Different "builds" need to be equally viable, and you should have to commit to a certain playstyle, at least when it comes to combat, you should not be able to master all the weapons (and currently you can master them all without buying any perks).

 

[Biscoitoso]

I want the ability to craft T6 items come back to the game. I agree with you about looting X crafting. I now can craft M60 Tier 5, but I am already have M60 T6 for a long time. Another detail, some itens of same gear and same tier have some diferences in theyr stats. For example, I found 2 M60 T6, one have 5 points of damage than the other.

The looting skills and looting mechanics render weapon and tool parts useless! Why I need it if I already have the gun and tool at T5 and T6?

I think it will be very nice if we can use the parts to improve the stats of our items.

For example, if i have a AK 47 and found some extra parts of this weapon, I can use it to improve the stats of my weapon. Another detail is the schematics for weapons and tools, they are useless if u dont have the crafting skills. Who on Earth will craft a T1 item?

My sugestion:

- Let the players craft high quality guns and tools of any quality regardless the level of crafting skill. But its cost parts, you start crafting T1, then need use more parts to upgrade to T2, T3, T4, T5 and finally T6.

And how about the crafting skills? What use it will have? The crafting skill let you unlock MOD slots. A modified weapon is a weapon of a specialist, you shouldnt be able instal mods if you not is a professional. Ok you can craft a AK 47 T6, but you cant add mods to it if you dont have the proper crafting skill. The crafting skill should unlock slots for mods up to 5 for items T6.

For example, If I have a pickaxe level 5 but dont have the crafting skill to it, I can use it, but cant instal mod. If i level up my skill, it will unlock a mod slot to me. But if my friend take my item without have the proper skill he can use but cant modify the mods instaleds cause the slots appear locked to him.

In adition, you can use your craftting skills to use parts and upgrade the item stats. Like I said before, some items of same T and same type have diferente stats

This mechanics turn schematics usefull to all, turn crafting skills usefull and turn parts usefull too and lower the overpower of Lucky Looter (why should I upgrade crafting perks if I can get T6 from loot?).

SORRY FOR BAD GRAMMAR!

 

[Biscoitoso]

About Cooking Skill, my sugestion is:

Each level give you 5% of saving materials (not only meat), -1% of food poisoning to foods you have prepared and improve the prices of food to traders (cause at end game stage, food is not a problem anymore, then this perk will still usefull to sell and buy foods for better prices turning it usefull at all gamestage).

 

[ElCabong]

The point I was trying to make is one of the reasons you have so many perks is so you can develop the kind of character you want. If you believe a perk is useless, it is useless to the way YOU play. Not necessarily the way I play.

I want to put perks into master chef but you don't. You don't see the need. The next time you play the game, you may have trouble finding the recipes. It's luck. I don't want to wait, I'll perk up.

 

[Genthro1]

The point I was trying to make is one of the reasons you have so many perks is so you can develop the kind of character you want. If you believe a perk is useless, it is useless to the way YOU play. Not necessarily the way I play.
I want to put perks into master chef but you don't. You don't see the need. The next time you play the game, you may have trouble finding the recipes. It's luck. I don't want to wait, I'll perk up.

What you are saying is well noted, as I have stated it may be in some peoples play styles, or want to take specific things. However, a want, or play style does not = game balance, because someone wants to take master chef to five does not mean the perk is doing what it should be doing. In essence from a balance perspective Master Chef in this regard does not actually present things that make the perk equivalent to other perks.

 

[Biscoitoso]

The point I was trying to make is one of the reasons you have so many perks is so you can develop the kind of character you want. If you believe a perk is useless, it is useless to the way YOU play. Not necessarily the way I play.
I want to put perks into master chef but you don't. You don't see the need. The next time you play the game, you may have trouble finding the recipes. It's luck. I don't want to wait, I'll perk up.

Ok, we got your point. But what we are proposing is a boost to skills like that cause they are very unbalanced in comparison with anothers. For example, if you play well, you can live with canned food, vitamines and old sham until you get some food recipes.

Even the 20% less meat usage ability you got at Master Chief 2, is outplayed by the Hunsterman 1 who can give you the same amount of meat, plus the bones, leather and fat.

I think Master Chief can be improved if:

- It reduces even less the meat and all ingredientes usage.

- It improves the trade price for drinks and food at vendors.

- It reduce the food contamination in foods you have prepared.

And of course, move it to Intellect branch! I cant se a reason to keep it in the Strengh!

What you are saying is well noted, as I have stated it may be in some peoples play styles, or want to take specific things. However, a want, or play style does not = game balance, because someone wants to take master chef to five does not mean the perk is doing what it should be doing. In essence from a balance perspective Master Chef in this regard does not actually present things that make the perk equivalent to other perks.

Another useless skill: Lock Picking. It can be removed and intregrated inside Lucky Looter, or mayber creat a new perk who take it and treasure find.

 

[Genthro1]

Another useless skill: Lock Picking. It can be removed and integrated inside Lucky Looter, or maybe create a new perk who take it and treasure find.

I find it interesting that you brought up lock picking, If I am not mistaken in earlier editions you use to be able to pick the locked doors, that made this skill very valuable for sneak style builds. I am also uncertain as to why the lock picks take Mechanical parts as for a lot of locks a bobby pin works just fine. I appreciate the addition of skills that are sub par to this discussion thank you.

 

[ElCabong]

MasterChef and lucky looter should be moved to the int tree

 

[Biscoitoso]

MasterChef and lucky looter should be moved to the int tree

I respectfully disagree. Ok about máster Chief, but not ok with Lucky Looter, cause if you are looking for something you use your perception and not your intellect.

 

[Biscoitoso]

I find it interesting that you brought up lock picking, If I am not mistaken in earlier editions you use to be able to pick the locked doors, that made this skill very valuable for sneak style builds. I am also uncertain as to why the lock picks take Mechanical parts as for a lot of locks a bobby pin works just fine. I appreciate the addition of skills that are sub par to this discussion thank you.

Glad to help. I am just trying improve the game development showing my own feelings about the gameplay.

 

[meganoth]

MasterChef and lucky looter should be moved to the int tree

The attribute trees were designed by madmole so that every attribute has at least one perk in areas like weapons, hit points, looting so that each attribute is somewhat self sufficient. Master Chef is the hit points perk of strength (because eating regenerates hit points) while lucky looter is the loot-oriented perk of percecption.

Now you either have to make a case why this attribute rule should be broken or suggest switching some other perks too to keep this balance.