PC Firearms are a joke in this game and have been for several iterations.

[CoolJ]

There is no two sides to this story. Every time I shoot a zombie in the head with a FIREARM they should be dead. End of discussion. There is no "balance" rebuttal here. Every firearm in this game provides more than enough muzzle energy to penetrate a human skull. I want to say the soldier zombies should maybe not die to the 9mm pistol because they are wearing a helmet. Still, there is no helmet on earth that will stop a high powered rifle bullet.

This bullet sponge crap is just that. It's lazy development. I don't care that other games do it. They are lazy also.

This is not an issue of suspension of disbelief. I clearly don't believe in zombies at all, and I don't expect them to be removed from the game. The problem is with feel and satisfaction. It is always going to feel wrong when I shoot a zombie in the head with a gun and they don't die. Just like it feels wrong when I dome a raider in fallout and they don't die. In the case of fallout, I mod the game so headshots kill enemies without head protection and likewise headshots will instantly kill me if I am not wearing head protection. I mod fallout because that is all I can do. It is a released game. This game is still in alpha. This problem can still be fixed.

You have many facets available to you to balance the difficulty of the game. Yet, you continue to focus only on the HP and destruction power of zombies as if it is the only way to do so. That is a mistake. I had 120 meat on day two. I have never wanted for money or food or building materials etc.

The combat it self, is starting to get to a point where it feels really good. H2H combat is visceral and exiting. Seeing an arrow sticking out the head of a zombie and ripping it out, just to fire it right back, is so cool I don't even know where to begin. However, if you ignore the firearm aspect of the game, you do so at your own peril.

Firearms can and should be balanced in other ways. A poor quality pistol should hangup sometimes and be horribly inaccurate. The most reliable firearms in the game should be the revolver and the bolt action rifle. Because they are manually operated. The marksman rifle and the ak and all the other end game weapons should not be given out like free candy!

Currently, there is zero progression in this game. A lvl1 character is every bit as strong as any other no matter the level. Why would I care about being able to build with concrete when concrete wont stop the zombies. Why would I care about looting my 15th pistol if the bow I made in the first five minutes of the game is better? Why does the crossbow even exist? Why do I have to ask these questions instead of you asking yourselves?

You obviously have the budget for mocap and general development. Why can't you find the funds to go to a range and fire some weapons and gain some understanding of how they work? We aren't chucking rocks here. A firearm should be the penultimate zombie solution provided that you have the ammo. Not a bow made of sticks followed by a fire axe. Which is where we stand now.

This is not the first time I have posted about this. When are you going to take a serious look at this problem and implement changes to make firearms preform and function the way that we all expect that they should?

 

[DaVegaNL]

Because the game would then be ridiculously easy?

Because the game would then be easier then even a16?

 

[Kam R.]

While I'm not a gun nut by any means and know next to nothing about guns irl, I tend to agree to pretty much everything said. Guns should be relatively rare finds, powerfully deadly in any case, vary in accuracy and durability and always have the negative effect of attracting more Zs until you put a suppressor on 'em.

 

[CoolJ]

Because the game would then be ridiculously easy?
Because the game would then be easier then even a16?

Non-argument. If you don't have access to a firearm from the first minute in the game then it is not easy. If you only have five rounds and there are 30 zombies, it is not easy. Take more than five seconds to formulate an actual rebuttal and get back to me.

 

[Jarod_Silverstar]

There is no two sides to this story. Every time I shoot a zombie in the head with a FIREARM they should be dead. End of discussion.

Because every living human that has been hit in the head with a bullet has died instantly. No exceptions, no excuses.

 

[Boldero]

Guns need to be rarer than they currently are, as madmole stated mods for weapons are endgame, so whats the point of looting loads of green or blue weapons that can't be modded at low levels, (as you cant get the schematics or use them til later on) when a grey one will do just as good, except it doesnt work that way, the only way you can get a firearm to do what it was remotely designed to do is go kill zeds with a club or bow and spec heavily into your desired weapons skillpoints, not a good representation of firearms really is it...

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Because every living human that has been hit in the head with a bullet has died instantly. No exceptions, no excuses.

Except for the fact that zombies aren't living.

 

[LegionDiablo]

I would love for them to make guns more useful. Like you guys did say make them rare and bullets harder to find and even harder to craft. So you don't run around with a gun like some rambo but ask yourself is this the time you want to use your bullets

 

[toores]

Because the game would then be ridiculously easy?
Because the game would then be easier then even a16?

Make guns rarer and bullets rarer... I would much prefer it to bullet sponges.

 

[katams]

Because every living human that has been hit in the head with a bullet has died instantly. No exceptions, no excuses.

If we do our research and look at the science, a lot of people survive gun shot wounds to the head. Even ones at very close range. So saying that "every time I shoot a Zombie in the head it should be dead" is very inaccurate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5175460/

Here is how gunshots to the head work. You can see in the article that the cause of death is blood loss, not the actual bullet to the head.

Funny enough the brain damage caused can leave people in a vegetative or zombie state.

https://www.aans.org/Patients/Neurosurgical-Conditions-and-Treatments/Gunshot-Wound-Head-Trauma

 

[CoolJ]

Because every living human that has been hit in the head with a bullet has died instantly. No exceptions, no excuses.

OK, you want to get technical.

Then 5% of zombies should not die to headshots. 5%.... We are currently at 100%.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bal-te.brain05oct05-story.html

Keep in mind those are statistics from mixed firearm encounters .22s .25s .32s and all other manner of items commonly referred to as pocket pistols or saturday night specials. If you get shot in the head with any conceivable large caliber firearm, your chances of survival are going to be far lower.

EDIT: To be clear. We are also talking about full incapacitation in 100% of these cases. None of the survivors had any chance without medical care and most are not going to be ambulatory after such an event. So it still amounts to 100% stoppage in this case. I don't intend to preform battlefield triage and months of physical therapy on these zombies once I have shot them in the head. If you would prefer it. Then 5% of the time they should fall on the ground and just wiggle until they are finished off.

 

[Gyonyoru]

1. Zombies are not humans, TFP are allowed to create their own lore to support or be supported by their gameplay design choices so if tougher zombies that don't follow the generic 'one shot to the head' archetype.

2. Gun jamming would be an annoyance at best due to its reliance on RNG, it would be troublesome to theorycraft a respectable and relevant way to jam your gun with purpose rather than just 'stimulate reality'.

3. Following fantasy films, games, and stories, guns are not the penultimate solution to a zombie apocalypse - often times their ingenuity is what keeps them alive.

4. I agree that the quantity and overall quality of guns need to be looked at, at least instead of 'poor quality firearms' broken pieces, factory pieces etc should be replaced instead to either scrap them or further on learning a perk regarding firearm smithing.

 

[grieferbastard]

citing an article that was old in 2006 isn't really useful.

Only 42% of gunshot wounds to the head are fatal according to a 2016 study.

Here's a medical review of what is involved.

Zombies, having way less critical brain mass than humans, would do even better. You're really talking about blowing out the cerebellum and connection to brain stem. Motor strip and some parts of the frontal lobe related to movement and translating sensory information into movement/action.

So, no. Absolutely and without question one shot to the head is not always fatal even to a human being and certainly not a zombie. Now, 3, 4 or shots? Well, depends how good the shot is.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Only 42% of gunshot wounds to the head are fatal.
Zombies, having way less critical brain mass than humans, would do even better. You're really talking about blowing out the cerebellum and connection to brain stem. Motor strip and some parts of the frontal lobe related to movement and translating sensory information into movement/action.

So, no. Absolutely and without question one shot to the head is not always fatal even to a human being and certainly not a zombie. Now, 3, 4 or shots? Well, depends how good the shot is.

My girlfriend, who is a doctor working in the Emergency Department of a major hospital here in Australia, absolutely agrees with you. (She's also a Zombie genre fan).

 

[Zourin]

Pistols and Marksman Rifles - Crap. These used to have VERY high headshot multipliers which are now gone to the perk system. These are a waste of bullets.

Shotgun - It's an OK 'oh crap' weapon in a pinch, but doesn't hold up to super-heavies like bears anymore. Shotguns and blunderbuss' used to have a slowdown effect in A16 that is now gone in favor of the perk stun chance, making them no longer 'bear hunting' weapons. Shotguns do NOT scale up in damage with Perception because of the game's constant rounding-down, but that changes when you can get your hands on slug ammo.

Hunting Rifle - Good for what it says it does. Good high up-front damage makes it good for both ballistics-free hunting, and landing a leading headshot on a cop/feral/irradiated before it charges. The reload speed, on the other hand, makes it garbage in a skirmish, so it's a 'fire-and-melee' weapon.

SMG and AK - These are OK skirmish weapons, but only on BM night. Otherwise you're losing a LOT of ammunition for very little gain.

Melee + Armor - This is the bread and butter. Resource and material efficient, and capable of knocking down or staggering enemies even with no perks. If you want something done right, suiting up in some heavy armor and grabbing a fire axe or sledge WILL produce results, as long as you aren't diving headfirst into a BM horde.

Crossbows - Garbage unless you have a stockpile of exploding arrows on horde night. The reload is slow and cripples your movement, making it a fire-and-melee weapon like the Hunting Rifle, but tries desperately to pretend it's quiet in doing so.

Bows & Crossbows - Good all-round weapons with a ready supply of recoverable ammo. The only hitch is the ballistic drop, but its ROF, non-crippling reload, and good damage makes it as good a skirmish weapon as it is a sniping weapon.

Perk Notes:

If you need a ranged weapon perk for reload speed, you ♥♥♥♥ed up.

If you need Run and Gun, you ♥♥♥♥ed up.

If you use either, you're wasting bullets and should just pull out a melee weapon.

 

[grieferbastard]

My girlfriend, who is a doctor working in the Emergency Department of a major hospital here in Australia, absolutely agrees with you. (She's also a Zombie genre fan).

Good on her! That's a brutal and intense kind of job that needs a specific kind of person.

In the end though it's way more about game balance than realism. I do think guns need to be more effective than they are. It's a huge amount of effort to make ammo and good guns but they're just so dramatically inferior to a compound bow or even heavy weapon for the effort. I was clearing out BM hordes on night 14 with a fire axe with a melee/stamina/survival focused character. Just kite and headshot and I'd clean a full horde out. When I tried to use guns I wouldn't even get close to killing the whole horde. The knockdown perks, bonus headshot damage plus damage mitigation and then just some good light armor means you just run around whacking heads off. Anyone you don't OHK is knocked down and not a risk. Have some parkour escape/rest/recover locations with spikes/barbwire under them for when stamina is low. It recovers in seconds, toss a bandage on, quick bite and sip of tea and BOOM. Back to the chopping.

While guns have that range advantage they have a massive resource and time investment. If I want to spend my days making ammo instead of other stuff I should be able to use guns as effectively as a fire axe.

 

[CoolJ]

citing an article that was old in 2006 isn't really useful.
Only 42% of gunshot wounds to the head are fatal according to a 2016 study.

Here's a medical review of what is involved.

Zombies, having way less critical brain mass than humans, would do even better. You're really talking about blowing out the cerebellum and connection to brain stem. Motor strip and some parts of the frontal lobe related to movement and translating sensory information into movement/action.

So, no. Absolutely and without question one shot to the head is not always fatal even to a human being and certainly not a zombie. Now, 3, 4 or shots? Well, depends how good the shot is.

The statistics you cite are less relevant than you think. The game can only model so many things. Without the miracles of modern medical treatments, this amounts to a dead person in almost all cases. We are not talking about saving lives of headshot victims here. We are talking about stoppages. Which should be damned near absolute! You cannot walk and swing your arms at me if the part of you responsible for walking and swinging your arms is destroyed. If we use the conditions and terms you cited then I am pretty sure we could say that 100% of people survive the guillotine since we know the brain will survive for several seconds after your head has been removed from your body. We aren't edge casing here at all. A zombie shot in the head with a firearm should be stopped. Not act like I just tossed a pebble at it's head.

 

[grieferbastard]

Pistols and Marksman Rifles - Crap. These used to have VERY high headshot multipliers which are now gone to the perk system. These are a waste of bullets.
Shotgun - It's an OK 'oh crap' weapon in a pinch, but doesn't hold up to super-heavies like bears anymore. Shotguns and blunderbuss' used to have a slowdown effect in A16 that is now gone in favor of the perk stun chance, making them no longer 'bear hunting' weapons. Shotguns do NOT scale up in damage with Perception because of the game's constant rounding-down, but that changes when you can get your hands on slug ammo.

Hunting Rifle - Good for what it says it does. Good high up-front damage makes it good for both ballistics-free hunting, and landing a leading headshot on a cop/feral/irradiated before it charges. The reload speed, on the other hand, makes it garbage in a skirmish, so it's a 'fire-and-melee' weapon.

SMG and AK - These are OK skirmish weapons, but only on BM night. Otherwise you're losing a LOT of ammunition for very little gain.

Melee + Armor - This is the bread and butter. Resource and material efficient, and capable of knocking down or staggering enemies even with no perks. If you want something done right, suiting up in some heavy armor and grabbing a fire axe or sledge WILL produce results, as long as you aren't diving headfirst into a BM horde.

Shotgun with slug ammo.

100 damage headshot plus modifiers.

It's the ultimate oh crap weapon. Honestly IMO best investment in guns tree. Get to 3x head damage and some good perception and you're 400+ damage on headshots with that. If that's not a cure for whatever ails you then you, my friend, are in very much the wrong part of town.

 

[Zourin]

Shotgun with slug ammo.
100 damage headshot plus modifiers.

It's the ultimate oh crap weapon. Honestly IMO best investment in guns tree. Get to 3x head damage and some good perception and you're 400+ damage on headshots with that. If that's not a cure for whatever ails you then you, my friend, are in very much the wrong part of town.

It's a pity you have to go REALLY far down the INT tree to get that ammo unlocked. It's worth carrying everywhere you go, especially if you perked it.

 

[grieferbastard]

The statistics you cite are less relevant than you think. The game can only model so many things. Without the miracles of modern medical treatments, this amounts to a dead person in almost all cases. We are not talking about saving lives of headshot victims here. We are talking about stoppages. Which should be damned near absolute! You cannot walk and swing your arms at me if the part of you responsible for walking and swinging your arms is destroyed. If we use the conditions and terms you cited then I am pretty sure we could say that 100% of people survive the guillotine since we know the brain will survive for several seconds after your head has been removed from your body. We aren't edge casing here at all. A zombie shot in the head with a firearm should be stopped. Not act like I just tossed a pebble at it's head.

Except your argument itself is broken.

Most of your brain has nothing to do with what a zombie needs to function. The bit at the back of your head and a chunk sorta down from the top middle to the middle are about all a zombie needs and they don't even need all of any of it. You could blow most of a zombies brain away and he'd lose nothing he needs to chase and eat you. That's the point. Sure, he may have trouble telling the difference between you and his uncle Bob or maybe he doesn't remember his childhood or maybe his sense of smell is messed up but he's not going to care. No sense of pain, trauma or shock is also gone so most of what puts a human down in a headshot is gone.

Think of it like a heart shot to kill a vampire. Blowing holes in his chest cavity and internal organs isn't going to stop him. Stake directly in the heart is it. Sure, if I blow a hole in your stomach I can fit my first through you're done. You're sitting down and going about the business of messily expiring. The vampire is just pissed though and all fangs and lace and pity comments on foolish mortals.

Think of zombies and headshots like that. Much like people who spend a lot of money of microtransactions they have a lot of grey matter they don't need or use.

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It's a pity you have to go REALLY far down the INT tree to get that ammo unlocked. It's worth carrying everywhere you go, especially if you perked it.

If you don't have it at level 100 IMO you're spending points poorly. Regardless of your build the ability to OHK anything/everything 7x in a row when you get cornered in a POI (and suddenly don't care about wasting ~40 rounds of pistol ammo worth of resources in 5 seconds) is the absolute best investment you can make.

 

[Scyris]

Good on her! That's a brutal and intense kind of job that needs a specific kind of person.
In the end though it's way more about game balance than realism. I do think guns need to be more effective than they are. It's a huge amount of effort to make ammo and good guns but they're just so dramatically inferior to a compound bow or even heavy weapon for the effort. I was clearing out BM hordes on night 14 with a fire axe with a melee/stamina/survival focused character. Just kite and headshot and I'd clean a full horde out. When I tried to use guns I wouldn't even get close to killing the whole horde. The knockdown perks, bonus headshot damage plus damage mitigation and then just some good light armor means you just run around whacking heads off. Anyone you don't OHK is knocked down and not a risk. Have some parkour escape/rest/recover locations with spikes/barbwire under them for when stamina is low. It recovers in seconds, toss a bandage on, quick bite and sip of tea and BOOM. Back to the chopping.

While guns have that range advantage they have a massive resource and time investment. If I want to spend my days making ammo instead of other stuff I should be able to use guns as effectively as a fire axe.

I don't want them to be one shot kills every shot, but they do need higher damage numbers, there is no world where a bow made of sticks and twine does the same damage as a common 9mm pistol. The guns need to be balanced around their ammo costs imo. I've never ran around using a gun much in 7dtd, they just in general do too little damage and ammo is too expensive to craft/buy thats its just not very efficent to use it. If anything i'd say the gunplay is the weakest part of 7dtd overall.

At first I thought melee was better, but its pretty flawed when you think about it. Too many of the melee weapons have the sameish damage: wood/iron club/hunting knife/machete, all have bascally the same damage. I prefer the fireaxe or sledge at least early game as it knocks down normal zombies mostly on the first hit. Though I did hear once you get the perk for clubs they end up the best in the end, as they attackl fast use low stam, and you end up with 100% knockdown chance and a 15% chance to instakill a zombie on a headshot.

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It's a pity you have to go REALLY far down the INT tree to get that ammo unlocked. It's worth carrying everywhere you go, especially if you perked it.

I feel the recipie for slugs needs a change, if anything it should just use a bit more lead, or even the same amount of lead as buckshot, think about it, its about the same amount of lead as buckshot just as one big bullet insted of little hamster poop pellets. Why it also needs mutiple brass bullet casings to make one is beyond me. Not to mention all the massive perk investments to actually make ammo. This is what I mean by they need to be balanced around ammo costs, you need: lead, nitrate, coal, brass (or iron for crappier bullets), and then multiple perks: forge, workbench, perks for the ammo type. I say drastically reduce the ammo from drops in the world, make the trader sell at most 10 bullets max, and vastly improve gun damage as the player is now forced to build their ammo insted of just scrounge for it.

I know they are trying to make it a bit like a rpg, but with how weak the guns are, many players just don't feel they are worth bothering with when you consider the cost in materials and skill points to even be able to make the ammo. Not to mention how level gated it is.

Second you find a forge you can make iron arrows, that do more dmg than half the guns in the game can even on a wooden bow. 0 perk investment at all needed.