PC Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[LMental23]

"Dark StarvenHearst Falls" ok that was a brilliant answer xD.

Your point is right the game have a good base for modders to create something different.

The only thing I still don't get is why you removed regular spikes, make them harder to craft, or nerf them to make less damage, but spikes are the main thing to protect your base, your walls and to create traps for the zombies. With the other spikes zombies just break them in 5 seconds and destroy your walls really easy.

You can check the channel JaWoodle in Youtube, this guy is a maniac creating new base ideas, and even him is running out of them.

It's all about the balance, I have more than 4000 hours in 7 days, A15 was incredible, and then in A16 you added sleepers in the buildings, which made the game scarier and funnier, but the best thing of A16 was the many things you could do, the many base types you could create, you played a new game until day 100, and then you wanted to start a new one with another base type.

Now there's only one way to survive the first days, almost only one way to build a base, so, when you end a game, there isn't the same spirit to start a new one if it's going to be almost the same.

It's my opinion of course, but I love this game and I want to "help" if I can to make it live longer and even more succesful, because I want to face the Behemoth in A18 and maybe new enemies (I hope).

 

[meganoth]

When I press a button to switch to a different weapon if I use attack to quick it remains on the same weapon. Even when I waited a second or so (while being attacked) it still didn't move over which ended up getting me killed. I'm fine if I do something stupid to get myself killed, game mechanics, that fail shouldn't cause me to die.

...

Hacking open a tool stiffy or other loot container, instead of being able to open the moment it switches (when the writing appears) you still have to wait now to open it. The E button doesn't work right away.

...

If others aren't experiencing this, maybe I have to reinstall the game or perhaps it's the modded game I'm playing.

I have experienced this only with bandages on my belt. If I switch to a bandage while bleeding and try to use it, I often have to use it again since the input didn't get registered. I don't get that with hacking or weapons at all.

I assume this is a bug and you got it worse than me. Hopefully at least one TFP internal tester got this too, then it should be already fixed in A18.

 

[Roland]

"Dark StarvenHearst Falls" ok that was a brilliant answer xD.
Your point is right the game have a good base for modders to create something different.

The only thing I still don't get is why you removed regular spikes, make them harder to craft, or nerf them to make less damage, but spikes are the main thing to protect your base, your walls and to create traps for the zombies. With the other spikes zombies just break them in 5 seconds and destroy your walls really easy.

You can check the channel JaWoodle in Youtube, this guy is a maniac creating new base ideas, and even him is running out of them.

It's all about the balance, I have more than 4000 hours in 7 days, A15 was incredible, and then in A16 you added sleepers in the buildings, which made the game scarier and funnier, but the best thing of A16 was the many things you could do, the many base types you could create, you played a new game until day 100, and then you wanted to start a new one with another base type.

Now there's only one way to survive the first days, almost only one way to build a base, so, when you end a game, there isn't the same spirit to start a new one if it's going to be almost the same.

It's my opinion of course, but I love this game and I want to "help" if I can to make it live longer and even more succesful, because I want to face the Behemoth in A18 and maybe new enemies (I hope).

The spikes were removed because they were just another versions of spikes. Spikes A and Spikes B don't really add diversity to gameplay other than the aesthetic value of having a different appearance. On top of that the animation of the zombies walking on and interacting with the log spikes was bad and not worth the time and effort to try and fix since there was already a spike trap version already in the game.

Now, you might be disappointed about it but I hope you can understand why it was done. That trap type was doubly covered. Just so you know, I'm disappointed about it too. I didn't mind the animations and I liked the wood spikes for decorating beyond the use of them as a trap. But my vote only counts for .01 of a dev vote....

As far as base styles I disagree strongly that there are fewer base designs. Before A17 as I perused the youtubers and also read threads in the forums I can tell you that there were only a few basic designs that were mostly used and copied by everyone. Of course there were lots of fringe experimental bases that people would try out or that could exploit the zombie AI. The only difference now is that the exploit pattern has changed and there is a new set of 2-3 dependable designs that everyone copies.

If you don't like the speed of zombies breaking walls then turn their block destruction down to 50%. That may be all it takes for some of your own base designs to start working again.

 

[meganoth]

Now there's only one way to survive the first days, almost only one way to build a base, so, when you end a game, there isn't the same spirit to start a new one if it's going to be almost the same.

Early game a single player at a higher than normal difficulty level is almost forced to use a POI for the first 2 weeks, but that should be a no-brainer in a voxel world with hundreds of usable buildings at your disposal. But surviving inside a POI is easy. No need to drive around.

If we look at middle to late game, I have built 4 totally different horde bases in the last 3 playthroughs that all made surviving quite easy. It was in co-op games with 3 other players, but naturally all designs would work in SP too.

There are two important rules for horde bases that a player needs to know at the moment:

1) Use at least 2 blocks thick (concrete) walls for sides you don't want zombies to get in.

2) provide a trap-filled path to you. You can provide two paths on different sides but then that is double the work, or a path on all sides but then it is 4 times the work. That isn't really different from earlier alphas, just that you can save the work for 3 of the 4 sides.

See for example https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?112831-Confession-Time&p=960380&viewfull=1#post960380. A really conventional base with a melee cage inside. There is a fallback position on the 1st floor if they break through, but with the spike overkill and blade traps shown in the picture and someone shooting at them the zombies didn't even come close to the cage.

Here are pictures of a drop base https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?112326-New-Auger-Heat-and-its-Problems&p=959725#post959725.

Below you see pictures of a horde base again with a melee cage (the cage bar is made out of 4 quarter blocks). The zombies have to go all the way in and through the back entrance with the blade trap to get to me. The fallback position is up the ladder on the platform that looks like a swimming pool springboard. Shooting them from above generates easy headshots (similar to how my drop used that gimmick), there's electrical wire inbetween and a dart trap that shoots from below (but also can hit you if you aren't careful).

Every one of these horde bases needed some trial and error, it never worked perfectly from start to finish, but I always had built a backup position into my bases that allowed survival even when zombies got through.

I really don't understand why anyone would say in A17 there is only one base design possible. A17 has been the first time I'm actively building bases because it is interesting and you can do so many different designs. It got more dangerous, yes, mistakes can kill you very fast, but when a design is fully working it even might be working too good.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

The spikes were removed because they were just another versions of spikes. Spikes A and Spikes B don't really add diversity to gameplay other than the aesthetic value of having a different appearance.

Quick correction:

Log spikes were the only permanent early trap. Now you have to use electric fences, but they don't deal enough damage, so you need bladetraps. But before you have electronics (and even after depending on the size of your base), there are no permanent defenses.

So yeah. They DID diversivy defense strategies by A LOT! More than beeing able to upgrade normal spikes ever could.

 

[LMental23]

I apreciate your answer about the log spikes, now I understand it a bit more, but I'm still thinking they are needed for early game if you aren't an experienced player, and I don't think people care that much about the animations of zombies on the spikes. Another idea could be that it was possible to upgrade the only spikes in the game to steel, the iron ones are good but get destroyed so fast in the hordes.

Anyway, it's good to see some devs taking care of the community, and a lot of people with good ideas for new updates, the game is going in the good way, can't wait to see new mods and the A18 update, thanks all for your hard work

 

[Roland]

Quick correction:Log spikes were the only permanent early trap.

Big correction: there are no permanent traps in the game. All blocks in the game are intended to be destructible with the exception of the trader POI.

So you must mean that the exploit of rotating them upside down so that their flat underside could be walked on like flat ground all the while giving magical damage to the zombies that at the time couldn’t attack downward at all which would have made them permanent and yet completely unrealistic and OP is what you’re actually pining for.

How ironic that you defend the log spikes when it isn’t even the spiked end of the block that interests you. What you really want is magical flat ground that damages zombies as they walk upon it never causing degradation or necessitating repair but always destroying zombies as they walk unobstructed upon it.

The very picture of an exploit.

Properly used as they were conceived and intended before advanced rotations came along and created the oversight, they were neither permanent nor much different in function to wood spikes. I bet you wouldn’t be nearly so interested in them if the advanced rotation options for them were removed...

 

[Khulkhuum]

Well i wouldn't mind having an upgraded version of the spikes, which would have higher health and do a bit more damage. Then we could be talking about log spikes being identical to wooden spikes.

My tactics in prior to A17 was to make a field of log spikes on top of which there were wooden spikes. So if one type went down, the other would inflict damage. This ofcourse can't work in A17, as Zs will not simply run at player (no matter where he is), but on the other hand i could make a similar field with only wooden spikes now (although it would be less durable).

So yeah, i see a bit of a difference in log spikes and wooden spikes, alongside looking different, wooden spikes visually changing as they get damaged and having lower damage.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Big correction: there are no permanent traps in the game. All blocks in the game are intended to be destructible with the exception of the trader POI.
So you must mean that the exploit of rotating them upside down so that their flat underside could be walked on like flat ground all the while giving magical damage to the zombies that at the time couldn’t attack downward at all which would have made them permanent and yet completely unrealistic and OP is what you’re actually pining for.

How ironic that you defend the log spikes when it isn’t even the spiked end of the block that interests you. What you really want is magical flat ground that damages zombies as they walk upon it never causing degradation or necessitating repair but always destroying zombies as they walk unobstructed upon it.

The very picture of an exploit.

Actually no. This is absolutely not what I had in mind. (and please don't jump to conclusions and get passive agressive over nothing) I know it sounds weird, but for the longest time, I didnt even use them upside down, as I liked the aestetic of the normally rotated spikes.

I was arguing for the normal log spikes, which work pretty much the same as the 180° rotated ones, just that zombies jump up and down and looting was a bit harder.

But zombies would still not attach them, if they were a ground block.

So yeah. They WERE permanent, even if they were destructable. I also placed them on walls, just because I could, but more on houses I didnt intend to keep

Please Roland You should know me better. I don't abuse bugs, don't exploit ai and so on. I like realism (maybe a bit too much) and I was always someone against avoiding hordenight and so on. Why do you suddenly think that I want the spikes only to abuse them?

 

[bachgh]

My post seems late because I should have made it a long time ago. Anyway, as an insane hardcore runner in older versions. I find A17 quite worrying.

It took me a week since the day a17 was launched to adapt to all the changes. As a veteran builder and Killing Floor player, I came up with strategies that work. However, the strategies and builds that I came up with hinted some underlying problems:

- In order to survive and save resources, prioritise agility and melee blunt weapons then kite bloodmoon hordes (my current setting is 12 zombies per player to prevent my computer from going kaput but I've handled worse in Killing Floor 1 & 2 so a bigger number should not be a problem) then slowly level up.

OR

- Exploit the AI and make a certain type of path to avoid triggering area destruction.

Now, my friends do now share my skill and passion for the game so the steep initial learning curve quickly turned them away from the game and I ended up playing SP by myself. It has got boring very quickly because I have to go through a checklist of safety measure before entering a POI or prefab alone.

Building base was an entertainment in earlier alphas because we could literally have fun with it. Now, casual builders are forced to learn and exploit the AI and it almost kills the sandbox element of the game (nobody loves having everything they've built destroyed). Consequently, I end up being the builder in every MP games with my friends.

Looking back, I feel that A17 is like an unorganised mixture of every single zombie games I have come across. It seems like it has lost its niche of being a sandbox, the very thing that got me and friends to buy the game.

My suggestions:

-Please see of you can release a 'vanilla version' with a simpler SP system (you only need to buy the 'mother' skill for an increased price and benefit from all the sub-skills OR just use the old SP system). The vanilla version should also use old AI to allow casual builders to have fun and be immune from future updates (default stable version).

-Not everyone goes to a 'change management' course. It is easy for cocky players to tell others to man-up and adapt. One however cannot chase one radical change after another (it's just not humanly possible) and developers should know this and make the changes less radical in future alphas.

I almost never post on any forum but I think people who have left without saying anything deserve to have their voices heard. As someone who love this game, I wish devs would bring glory to it again. Have a good day!

 

[Viktoriusiii]

*snip*

This. I mean I know the devs know better than the players, since they don't play the game, so this man is obviously wrong.

But I as a player have agree. While Rolands mod fixes the most insane issues and they ARE working on A.I. The fact that the devs do not acknowledge that this Alpha was a blunder and a mess of unorganized, unbalanced and unfun changes is worrying.

Yes some players have fun with it. That is great. But if 50% of your playerbase say its gotten so much worse that they actively give it a negative review (and even the positive ones complain, if you look through them), then something is wrong.

If only they would come out and say "hey look guys, this update was pretty crappy, but we felt like we had to release an alpha because it was so long, even though it wasn't finished. A18 will be what we wished A17 could have been, please be patient and maybe try out some mods that fix the mistakes of this alpha. Meanwhile feel free to give feedback, we will listen closely!"

They go out saying "dying on that hill"; "I don't play it but its better!"; "sales are up so its obviously good!" and more.

This is why I lost faith. Maybe A18 will rekindle my passion for the games development... but A17 damaged it heavily.

 

[meganoth]

If only they would come out and say "hey look guys, this update was pretty crappy, but we felt like we had to release an alpha because it was so long, even though it wasn't finished. A18 will be what we wished A17 could have been, please be patient and maybe try out some mods that fix the mistakes of this alpha. Meanwhile feel free to give feedback, we will listen closely!"

You mean like https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984859&viewfull=1#post984859

and

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984908&viewfull=1#post984908 ?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

You mean like https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984859&viewfull=1#post984859
and

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984908&viewfull=1#post984908 ?

Well it is nice to read a... more A17 critical post of madmole. Its still not as open as I wished it to be, but I also understand saying "this was ♥♥♥♥ yo check back in a year" is not helping anyone

So yeah... like this... just half a year earlier, when I told them this was going to be a bust. But back then (and because I go overboard a little in my rants, also today) I was called a hater who wants 7d2d to fail and that all I said was just temporary and that people just made a rukkas because they are bored or just want the attention. Some things they actually changed more in line with what I said, but overall I was ignored or ridiculed when I told them that 32% on steam is actual horsedung.

So yeah. Good job madmole. I wish this would have come a bit earlier (also don't compare it to A13 A13 was buggy and unbalanced but overall still allright, A17 is on a completely differnt level of f*** ups ), but I will say that I am happy that the team acknowledges it.

also this:

This looks promising. I must admit i don't check through the DEV Diary thread, mostly due to the amount of messages posted there (not enough time to check it all daily).

 

[Khulkhuum]

You mean like https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984859&viewfull=1#post984859
and

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984908&viewfull=1#post984908 ?

This looks promising. I must admit i don't check through the DEV Diary thread, mostly due to the amount of messages posted there (not enough time to check it all daily). This also confirms what i was talking about way way back: BE PATIENT PEOPLE!

It's not like TFP does not listen (like many people tend to say), it's not like they don't know where the problems lay (look at what they're focused on), it's not like they are stuck up on their own vision (many decisions leaning towards what people say, but they have to shift through everything) and most importantly, it's not like they can fix everything in a matter of a couple days.

Things didn't go as planned for A17? Sit back, enjoy the show as much as you can or indulge in something else before A18 drops. Take a few deep breaths, relax and let them work. Big things require large amounts of time.

 

[meganoth]

After some thinking I have to change my opinion somewhat about base building, I can see where the different views come from.

In a way A17 AI really limits base building more than previous alphas, especially for beginners and people more interested in style than function. But it also allows more in the way of functional builds for experienced players and players more interested in function than style. THAT is in my opinion the big difference.

In A16 it didn't matter that much how the horde base looked, it could be styled after the opera house in Sydney or the Eiffel Tower and still be an excellent horde base, you just needed some place to shoot from on all sides, optionally a melee cage and lots of basic spike traps around. Style over function, necessary knowledge needed about the AI very low.

In A17 function became more important. You need to experiment and know stuff like the relative strengths of a wall against a trap filled corridor. Less Minecraft, more Factorio, more tower defense at the cost of sandbox. One could even argue that before A17 tower defense was only rudimentary implemented since it didn't matter where you placed your traps, just that you placed a lot of them.

In a way 7D2D A17 became a little more like a "Dark Souls" of creative building games, where it is expected that the novice learns through failing.

 

[OzHawkeye]

So yeah... like this... just half a year earlier, when I told them this was going to be a bust. But back then (and because I go overboard a little in my rants, also today)

And this is a mistake so many people make. Leaving aside whether you did call out an issue early or not, whether you were right or not, or indeed whether you were rude/disrespectful/whatever or not, leaving all that aside, and not making any judgement on it, one way or the other, the really successful feedback is given calmly and respectfully.

The Pimps are human just like the rest of us, and if someone comes at them, all fired up and narky, then even if they actually had a good point, it's going to get missed, because, being human, it's the tone of the message that'll get the attention, not the content.

I know how hard it can be to be calm sometimes when you see something you care about (and if we didn't give a crap about this game, none of us would be here), going in a direction you think is wrong, but ranting definitely runs the risk of almost always being ignored, if even if the ranting had a good underlying point.

I don't quote your post to single you out either, this is a mistake I suspect every single one of us has made from time to time, and I freely admit to having made it myself once, when Alpha 13 had some issues driving me nuts, but I see this on so many game forums, where someone who might have had a valid point, got dismissed because they made it so angrily.

And I give the Pimps big props, after the huge delay in releasing A17, they were (again, being human), no doubt really invested in it, and that would have made any negative feedback even harder to hear, and tougher to acknowledge. That Madmole has posted saying that in retrospect some elements of A17 weren't as good as he'd hoped for, is, I think, a really good omen for the future, and a great indicator for why the Pimps have been so incredibly successful with this game to date.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

And this is a mistake so many people make. Leaving aside whether you did call out an issue early or not, whether you were right or not, or indeed whether you were rude/disrespectful/whatever or not, leaving all that aside, and not making any judgement on it, one way or the other, the really successful feedback is given calmly and respectfully.

True. But I think that in experimental, I was pretty nice about it. I gave feedback, told them to remove levelgates (which they then doubled down on and increased them) and told them why farming zombies is not fun... and only after they had done nothing in favour of my suggestions and released a broken 17.0 because it was christmas sale+humble bundle day, I started to get really pissed off.

It was the utter dismissal, even the ridicule and "anti-" mentallity that made me so... mad.

So yeah. I will not say what they did was good or that I "forgive", but if they honestly see the flaws of A17, I am hopeful that A18 can get my trust back... at least in part. Can't be worse than A17

 

[Roland]

Actually no. This is absolutely not what I had in mind. (and please don't jump to conclusions and get passive agressive over nothing) I know it sounds weird, but for the longest time, I didnt even use them upside down, as I liked the aestetic of the normally rotated spikes. I was arguing for the normal log spikes, which work pretty much the same as the 180° rotated ones, just that zombies jump up and down and looting was a bit harder.

But zombies would still not attach them, if they were a ground block.

So yeah. They WERE permanent, even if they were destructable. I also placed them on walls, just because I could, but more on houses I didnt intend to keep

Please Roland You should know me better. I don't abuse bugs, don't exploit ai and so on. I like realism (maybe a bit too much) and I was always someone against avoiding hordenight and so on. Why do you suddenly think that I want the spikes only to abuse them?

If the log spikes stopped getting damaged then it was a bug. They used to get damaged and downgrade like all upgradeable blocks did when they were damaged. That is the reason I assumed you were placing them upside down. Right side up I have many memories of repairing, replacing, and re-upgrading wood log spikes. But I didn't play the vastly inferior A16 version very much so perhaps they were bugged for that year and a half.

I can guarantee you that there is not a single block or trap in the game that is intended to be indestructible or permanent. That idea really does go against the core nature of the game. If Log Spikes became permanent at some point then it was a bug and using them to surround your base as indestructible defenses would also qualify as using an exploit in my opinion.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Well... no dirt is also not indestructible, but as long as its level and zombies have no reason to dig down, they won't destroy it.

Same with the wood log spikes. As long as they were level with the rest, zombies had no reason to attack them, if you were above/in front of them.

What I meant with "permanent" block is this:

Current wood/iron spikes as well as the bladetraps get damaged simply by damaging zombies. So as soon as they damage zombies, they get damaged as well.

Log spikes were not like this and rather like electric fences (which seem to get damaged somehow as well as I noticed). They would damage the zombies, but not receive damage by doing so.

Obviously if they were in the way, zombies would hit them and break them. Duh.

I hope you get now what I meant by "permanent". Once you placed them down on the ground and gave zombies no reason to hit them, they were "permanent".

 

[SylenThunder]

Log spikes did take damage from zeds. It just wasn't anywhere near the rate that the other spikes were.

Also, they could be rotated upside down to make a flat surface, and still dealt damage. This is most likely why they were removed.