PC Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Tin]

I see what you are saying now.
The A16.4 zombies used to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.

Now the A17.1 zombies:

Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.

Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.

Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.

Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

Then the plan is to teach them to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Yeah, because in a16.4 it was great fun:

Watching as they would, get stuck on air?

Run in circles when you were right next to them ground level?

Them walk up to you, then turn around and just wonder away.. well because?

Yeah, those were the days with them and their "like zombie" behavior, sure wish we could go back to that.. :rolleyes2:

 

[Royal Deluxe]

Be happy that they are so smart.

If not with that current damage they would be a pain in the Azz

 

[HungryZombie]

I see what you are saying now.
The A16.4 zombies used to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.

Now the A17.1 zombies:

Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.

Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.

Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.

Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

Then the plan is to teach them to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

It was spelled out by no less than three different people so I'm not sure what else could be said to make you understand.

 

[Grue]

So, kidding aside, I just don't play like that. I don't track or even think about where xp is coming from. I'm very interested in fact in a modlet somebody mentioned for removing the xp announcement in the lower right corner.
I guess our brains are wired differently. I just don't worry or analyze what percentage of my experience comes from which source and I really believe it is because I am not strategically trying to be efficient about gaining xp. I play the game. I cook when I need to. I chop trees when I need to. I kill zombies when I need to. I explore and clear POI's for fun and for looting. I mine for resources as I need to. I really do play a game full of varied activities and I see it all going into my avatar's gain in experience. So when I take a perk in cooking it is because I as a player want my avatar to be better at that and I view the points as being an aggregate of all my activities.

Now for someone who does focus on the single best method of gaining xp and so who does that one activity repetitive for the purpose of gaining xp points I can see how they might feel that they are mining to learn bacon and eggs. But I don't play that way and as long as people are talking about core gameplay, I don't think that playing the game to repetitively focus on one activity to rapidly gain levels is the core of this game regardless of the model chosen for player progression.

I would invite you to go back to Alpha 10 and play that game and figure out why you are doing the activities you are doing when there is zero xp or player levels to be had. Is the gameplay all worthless without xp to be earned? Many of the people with multiple thousands of hours put those hours in during Alphas 1 - 10 before there ever was any xp and somehow they found value in mining, harvesting, building, exploring, looting, etc. without worrying about where xp was coming from and how much you got for it.

I still play pretty much the same way I did back then as far as my purposes and goals. So I can tell you that when I spend points for anything in the game those points feel like they came from all the activities I do to become a more experienced survivalist and I never feel a break of immersion that I'm spending THIS point from killing 10 zombies in order to be able to build a bicycle now.

I'm not saying the system is perfect. I think it can be improved. But the current system is great for me and the way I play. I'm sorry it doesn't work for how you like to play.

What you are describing is essentially an organic user experience.

When you need to gather supplies you go mine, chop wood etc.

If you need to build things, you build.

If you feel like running around scavenging, you go explore.

When you need to shoot/stab/bludgeon something, you had better do it.

These activities would happen without any XP system to prompt you or gates to slow you down, A10 for example.

Then the XP/Perk system was implemented using learn by doing which flowed logically.

When you need to gather supplies you go mine, chop wood, and you got better at using mining tools, and if good enough qualified for some perks.

If you need to build things, you build, and you got better at using construction tools, and if good enough qualified for some new recipes and materials.

If you feel like running around scavenging, you go explore, and athletics goes, scavenging goes up, appropriate perks become available...

When you need to shoot/stab/bludgeon something, you get better at whatever weapon you are actually using, appropriate perks become available...

All of these progressions (more or less) made senses, because they were in line with the organic user experience, thus they did not feel forced.

You were simply playing the game, and got better at skills by actually practicing those skills. Minimal level gating necessary.

The new XP/Perk process is disjointed from the activity, so now you are forced to stop mining because it is painfully inefficient, to go kill things in order to get better at mining.

I find myself looking for extra zombies to kill so I can learn how to cook bacon and eggs!

Now there are level gates and perk walls to do even the most basic stuff.

Why must I wait 10 levels without a forge?

Why wait 20 levels before I can make basic iron tools?

Why are these two separate ♥♥♥♥ing perks!? I have the forge, but do not know how to use it yet?

Why should I need to spend points to learn how to get seeds?

What the hell do either of these have to do with "fortitude"?

The game is now stuck in low gear and forces an extreme XP grind on top of the already somewhat tedious resource grind that was already a big part of the game. Add that to the laser-guided-bunker-buster hordes and might as well not even play til the next patch.

 

[Grue]

It was spelled out by no less than three different people so I'm not sure what else could be said to make you understand.

Oh, I am sorry, did I use too many words and confuse you again?

The zombies already acted like zombies.


No need to program an elaborate AI so you can teach them to act like zombies.

Yeah, because in a16.4 it was great fun: Watching as they would, get stuck on air?

Run in circles when you were right next to them ground level?

Them walk up to you, then turn around and just wonder away.. well because?

Yeah, those were the days with them and their "like zombie" behavior, sure wish we could go back to that.. :rolleyes2:

I never witnessed any of those problems.

Be happy that they are so smart.If not with that current damage they would be a pain in the Azz

Yeah, good point.

 

[psycros]

Yeah sure, they will just follow your lead and forget about their own ideas in THEIR game. You wouldn't either if you ever developed a game yourself.
Just try to imagine it, how much control would you give the players of your game? Would you listen to them on balancing the game or add ideas from them that you like? Sure, you would.

BUT would you ever add something you don't like just because a part of your players want it? Or not implement an idea you like because part of your players don't like it (and others like it!) ? I highly doubt that.

I have private emails of about a dozen active game devs. I actually know a couple personally, one of whom works for a very well known (though perhaps not well respected) company, if that matters at all. They both tell me that they try to listen to the players as much as they can, but a big factor is figuring out which ones are actually concerned about the game's health vs the ones who just want an autowin button. You listen to the people who have a mature perspective regarding balance, immersion, overall fun factor and other aspects of design..the rest you just give a smile-and-wave.

 

[Jedo]

The new XP/Perk process is disjointed from the activity, so now you are forced to stop mining because it is painfully inefficient, to go kill things in order to get better at mining.
I find myself looking for extra zombies to kill so I can learn how to cook bacon and eggs!

Maybe you are forced to stop mining for that reason.

I mine until I need food. Then I realize that I don't have any food, so I better go get some. While going to get some, I encounter a fair number of zombies, which I kill. It happens that I find some really good loot while looking for food, and I decide that I will see whether the trader will give me a good price for it. On my way, I encounter some wolves (yay food!). After all of this, night has descended on me sooner than I expected, and I'm a little ways from home. Rather than making the trek back, I hole up in a little house off the road. I find more loot and kill more zombies. The next day, I return to my base to mine some more and...what's this?! I have some skill points that I can use to up my mining skill.

I never witnessed any of those problems.

Then you were blind.

 

[Ghostlight]

I have private emails of about a dozen active game devs. I actually know a couple personally, one of whom works for a very well known (though perhaps not well respected) company.

Bethesda?

 

[Hek Harris]

I have private emails of about a dozen active game devs.

Nothing really exceptional, I also have my mailbox full of mails of devs. For example :

Please, stop sending me those pictures or I will call the police

I know who you are moron and I'm gonna come to knock on your f**ing door if you don't stop calling me at night !

What don't you understand in "restrictive order" ?!!

 

[Guppycur]

Haha

 

[meganoth]

I never witnessed any of those problems.

.

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?82769-Zombie-AI-Running-in-circles

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?76220-How-to-fix-zombies-running-in-circles

The video isn't even showing the best part since at least the player was unreachable on a tower anyway. But normally you could see zombies running in circles even when you were standing right next to them.

If you never saw any of that you can't have played A16 for more than a few hours.

 

[Grue]

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?82769-Zombie-AI-Running-in-circles
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?76220-How-to-fix-zombies-running-in-circles

<shrug> I have probably played more A16 than any other build mainly because it was so long between builds.

I cannot say for sure it never happened in my game, but if it did, I never noticed because it would have a negligible effect on my game play.

If the zombie is walking toward me, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

If the zombie is not moving, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

 

[meganoth]

<shrug> I have probably played more A16 than any other build mainly because it was so long between builds.
I cannot say for sure it never happened in my game, but if it did, I never noticed because it would have a negligible effect on my game play.

If the zombie is walking toward me, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

If the zombie is not moving, I shoot it in the head and continue on my way.

Same for me, it didn't disturb me greatly. But with the same fervor you critize the "better" AI now lots of players have been critizicing the circle-running zombies in A16.

TFP hired a programmer for A17 to overhaul the AI. Probably not because of all the ridicule the zombies were getting from players, but because they knew they needed a more versatile AI if it has to handle bandits as well.

 

[Roland]

I see what you are saying now.
The A16.4 zombies used to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.

Now the A17.1 zombies:

Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.

Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.

Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.

Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

Then the plan is to teach them to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Here is what you aren't seeing. (I'll try to be concise Gups)

In A1 - A16 all there was were separate commands called tasks in a priority list. The zombies could only do those things and adding more behaviors would have added to the list lengthening the spectrum of priorities and making tasks at the bottom of the list less and less likely to even happen.

Attack doors was a task (for example). So Zombies always went for doors and there was no way to make them sometimes go for doors but other times go up a ramp and jump or go find a different wall and start attacking blocks. Those would've needed their own tasks and then who knows how long the list would need to be to cover an infinite number of cases.

In addition, there was no way to effectively get smarter enemies for the bandit mobs that are coming in the future.

In addtion, the pathing itself was horrible. Many times zombies would get stuck and never come into interaction with the player which might be realistic behavior for something dumb like a zombie is supposed to be but really boring for a video game about interacting with zombies.

A17 introduced an overhauled pathing system. It is a huge improvement. Now there is no need for a limiting command for zombies to attack doors. Now they just find the least expensive path to the player and follow that which may or may not involve a door. Right now the zombies have too much information and they all know the shortest path even if it is convoluted and it makes them avoid traps if the cheaper way to go leads them around them. But that will be fixed as faatal limits their knowledge and introduces randomizers on which paths which zombies follow.

The new method is better even though the end result will be a return to dumb zombies much like before because it will allow for a greater range of intelligent behavior (Bandits) as well as a much greater variety of behavior among zombies themselves. It will also allow zombies to not get stuck in endless loops as they'll be triggered to follow a different path once they get into a loop. It is a work in progress and it will have benefits not just for this game but for future games involving enemy pathing and AI that TFP plan to do.

 

[psycros]

Here is what you aren't seeing. (I'll try to be concise Gups)
...

A17 introduced an overhauled pathing system. It is a huge improvement. Now there is no need for a limiting command for zombies to attack doors. Now they just find the least expensive path to the player and follow that which may or may not involve a door. Right now the zombies have too much information and they all know the shortest path even if it is convoluted and it makes them avoid traps if the cheaper way to go leads them around them. But that will be fixed as faatal limits their knowledge and introduces randomizers on which paths which zombies follow.

The new method is better even though the end result will be a return to dumb zombies much like before because it will allow for a greater range of intelligent behavior (Bandits) as well as a much greater variety of behavior among zombies themselves. It will also allow zombies to not get stuck in endless loops as they'll be triggered to follow a different path once they get into a loop. It is a work in progress and it will have benefits not just for this game but for future games involving enemy pathing and AI that TFP plan to do.

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

 

[Laz Man]

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

It was the community that has been complaining about the AI prior to A17 for so long and the devs did confirm they would be working on it when the time comes as it was never complete in the 1st place. This change should not be a surprise to anyone.

Given we are in Alpha, everyone should expect that features will undergo multiple revisions even without the devs telling us so.

 

[Guppycur]

Here is what you aren't seeing. (I'll try to be concise Gups)
In A1 - A16 all there was were separate commands called tasks in a priority list. The zombies could only do those things and adding more behaviors would have added to the list lengthening the spectrum of priorities and making tasks at the bottom of the list less and less likely to even happen.

Attack doors was a task (for example). So Zombies always went for doors and there was no way to make them sometimes go for doors but other times go up a ramp and jump or go find a different wall and start attacking blocks. Those would've needed their own tasks and then who knows how long the list would need to be to cover an infinite number of cases.

In addition, there was no way to effectively get smarter enemies for the bandit mobs that are coming in the future.

In addtion, the pathing itself was horrible. Many times zombies would get stuck and never come into interaction with the player which might be realistic behavior for something dumb like a zombie is supposed to be but really boring for a video game about interacting with zombies.

A17 introduced an overhauled pathing system. It is a huge improvement. Now there is no need for a limiting command for zombies to attack doors. Now they just find the least expensive path to the player and follow that which may or may not involve a door. Right now the zombies have too much information and they all know the shortest path even if it is convoluted and it makes them avoid traps if the cheaper way to go leads them around them. But that will be fixed as faatal limits their knowledge and introduces randomizers on which paths which zombies follow.

The new method is better even though the end result will be a return to dumb zombies much like before because it will allow for a greater range of intelligent behavior (Bandits) as well as a much greater variety of behavior among zombies themselves. It will also allow zombies to not get stuck in endless loops as they'll be triggered to follow a different path once they get into a loop. It is a work in progress and it will have benefits not just for this game but for future games involving enemy pathing and AI that TFP plan to do.

tldr;

Faatal made a total ai package so that later he can use some parts on bandits, some on npc's, some on zombies. Right now we are testing the TOTAL package. Zombies won't always likely have these characteristics.

- - - Updated - - -

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

They have said it. No one listened; people were reading what they wanted to read.

 

[Quasimiyao]

Then why can't the devs just say this themselves and save a lot of moaning and hand-wringing in the forums? Are there concerns (perhaps valid) that its risky to allow too much much familiarity between the creators and the customers when important design elements are still in flux? If so then I would suggest the rewards of being straight with the players outweigh the risks. What you say about pathfinding explains a lot and on the whole sounds like a positive development. However, you've also just confirmed that their already looking beyond 7D. That doesn't exactly give me hope that the game will ever get out of alpha purgatory - but that info is also a positive because it allows current and potential players to make more informed decisions, and that can only help a company's reputation. Server hosts and modders in particular benefit from having advance warning about impending changes or a lack thereof.

Just because they are looking ahead doesnt mean they arent as dedicated to their current game. Thinking about ideas for future games doesnt mean they are diverting staff to work on other games, and imho is common sense for a company wanting to stay in business for longer than one release.

 

[Guppycur]

Just because they are looking ahead doesnt mean they arent as dedicated to their current game. Thinking about ideas for future games doesnt mean they are diverting staff to work on other games, and imho is common sense for a company wanting to stay in business for longer than one release.

Whoa fracking 3 eyed NELLY!

This here is the FORUMS. We ain'ts got noes TIMES for noes COMMON fracking SENSE. Y'all best get up on outta'here with dat nonsense.

 

[Quasimiyao]

Whoa fracking 3 eyed NELLY!
This here is the FORUMS. We ain'ts got noes TIMES for noes COMMON fracking SENSE. Y'all best get up on outta'here with dat nonsense.

Srry, sometimes I forget where I am. Thx for finding me so I can bring me back home tho.