PC Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Roachy]

Our gaming groups thoughts on A17 / 17.1

Firstly, I'm not the type of player that joins game forums usually, I just like to play / host the games. But A17 has dragged me (kicking and screaming) to here because I feel strongly that there is a problem with my favorite game.

I realise that our gaming groups opinion doesn't count for much in the overall scheme of things, but the fact that I have taken the time out to bother putting our thoughts together and create an account on your forums to post it should at least show that I care enough about this game to try and make a difference in some small way. If these types of opinion posts aren't welcome here then that's fine, go ahead and delete it.

After 814 hours of playtime, I find myself no longer wanting to play the game at all. Normally I don't even mind jumping around between servers and starting from scratch because the game was damn fun to play at any point in the game! (A16.4).

For me and my gaming friends, he fun has been sucked out of the game with A17. The core "soul" of the game is gone, and it did have a great soul to it! Here is why we think so.

Yes there are some great new bits that have been added, but overall it doesn't make me want to sit down and waste a few hours on it anymore like I used to. Instead I find myself wondering what other things I could be doing with my time instead of playing this game.

I guess my overall feeling is that they should have just fixed the existing bugs and glitches in A16, updated the engine and then after that, maybe add some more recipes / poi's, vehicles etc.. in. Then call it a night and let the mod makers do what they do best while the Fun Pimps moved on to creating the next great game for everyone instead.

It really used to be sooooooo much fun! We didn't care at all that the graphics weren't the best and slightly glitchy, the game was so playable and enjoyable that it didn't make a difference!

The balance was good, it performed well as a zombie fest, PvP / PvE sneaky base building game that had everything going for it. We LOVED these aspects of the game! It's MAIN drawback was a item duplication glitch in A16.4 that was left sitting there for over a year and ruined a lot of server communities. If they would have just fixed that glitch I believe there would have been many more players still active in the game up to the end of last year. The dupers made things sort of silly and not as much fun.

Now though, it's just a boring grind, no real sense of accomplishment and just overall not as much fun as it once was. The sense of real achievement and reward has been removed from the game. The urge to want to play for "just another hour!" when you know you should be doing something else IRL is gone and has been replaced with a healthy dose of "meh".

The thought of levelling up through any of the now available means doesn't feel like something I would want to do and I can only put that down to the new gated xp / perk requirements.

Gaining xp and skill in increments from use was far more fun and rewarding, you could SEE yourself getting somewhere! Finding the parts to "complete" your favorite weapon was satisfying. Finding a rare recipe that you had been searching everywhere for was a "hell yeah" moment. Having the ability to play the game the way we wanted to play it with a huge variety of available playstyles was not only unique, but awesome, and made it very easy for me to convince friends to get the game and come join me.

Keep the new POI's, vehicles, quests, weapon mods, engine improvements because they are what the game needed and what many people were looking forward to, but PLEASE rethink the new xp / stam / gated / zombie AI systems. Surely you can now see that they are not popular and have deeply divided your community of loyal fans.

Also, we loved the old system of building, the design and creativity that it allowed us was beyond any other game, but now that freedom of creation has suffered a bit of a set back as well due to the zombie changes. We built for PvP / PvE, not just PvE. We also built for fun designs that would give us a laugh at the zombies being enticed into ever more weird and wonderful traps. It was a large part of the game for us! Speaking for our group anyway, we didn't want smarter zombies, we just wanted the good old rotten zombies that are half brain dead but they can ruin your day if you get too careless.

Some more effort into the dupe bugs and cheats wouldn't go astray either. Dupes can ruin a multiplayer game in very short order, once the word got out on how to do that we watched our server population go down quickly because of it.

I didn't come here to create a troll post or to watch this post get trolled. I just wanted to post an honest opinion on behalf of our group of gamers. I truly hope to see this game get back onto a similar track to what it was previously. Even if it doesn't thanks so much for the 814 hours of fun I had previously. It was a blast while it lasted. Some great memories!

I really hope some sanity returns to the development direction of this game, the savage backlash the game is getting in steam is sad to see. It's finally gone below the 50% mark, a huge fall for such a brilliant game, and one I would dearly like to see reversed. Either way, we will keep an eye on future patches to see if the game has returned to it's former glory.

Thanks so much for reading.

 

[Roachy]

Oh and I hope I posted this in the right area.

"A biome dedicated to general discussions and thoughts on 7 Days to Die"

 

[hotpoon]

I guess my 'gaming group' agree with yours because I'm the only one still playing.

I appreciate the better graphics, and the stealth system, and I don't really care for gun parts (though I don't feel strongly about it), but other than that I agree with you. I still think it's a good game, and I will continue playing it, but I no longer go around claiming it is the best game in the world ever made.

I hope they will bring back learn by doing and books primarily. Also wouldn't mind the old wellness system back.

 

[Cirion]

You know what's weird? Even though in some ways the old system was more grindy, it felt more satisfying, because leveling up a specific skill had a weird kind of addiction/satisfaction to it. Normally I hate grinding but all the stuff to level kept you busy a while.

I think why it was addicting is that it added things to DO in the game and mix things up too like switch up your favorite gun to use just to make sure all your gun skills are up to par, you'd be amazed how a little thing like that adds freshness to the game.

I really feel like there should be some way to keep that system, while keeping the new system, because the new perk system has its... well.. ahem.. perks as well

Maybe a way we can keep gun parts also is to once again - keep best of both worlds. Don't make gun parts a drop like A16, but add the ability back to take apart a gun and intercharge its parts.

That's the trick to a succesful sandbox. The more unique things to do and achieve the better.

I guess in summary what I'm saying is that players never want grind for the sake of grind (Here's looking to you A17 and your 9000 EXP just to get to level 2, level gating for iron tools ETC), and players probably don't ever want grind removed while also removing layers of interesting/fun (IMO) aspects.

These are the 2 main faults of A17. In my opinion, but shared by many others. The great irony is this:

Players like the A16 grind, and TFP removed it. This was an example of a "FUN" grind. IMO. And them rammed a grind down our throats we DON'T like (A17).

Many players do NOT like the A17 grind. This is NOT an example of a "FUN" grind. Luckily, this aspect of the game can be modded out, and I did. But I can't mod the fun back IN the game from A16 like gun parts and individual skills. This is why there's such a strong pushback from the community because even the standard "If you don't like it just mod it" response fails to rectify this problem as there is no way to bring either gun parts or individual skills back. I don't believe anyone has modded either of these have they?

To be clear, A17 does do a lot of things right

+ Quests

+ Vehicles (thank you for giving us decent looking vehicles and something other than the crappy minibike with awful controls. I do appreciate the dramatic handling increase of vehicles)

+ Weapon attachments

+ Perk system does have its benefits

+ New zombie AI which actually is growing on me now that I understand how to take advantage of it in my defenses, is allowing me to make designs I could not do before

I'm just saying I want to keep A17 and also bring back gun parts and individual skill expertise and then A17 will be perfect. You would literally keep perks as they are now (with maybe minor modifications) but add the fact that as you use a gun, you get better at it, as example. Gun building will be amazing if you bring back gun parts because then we'll have gun parts AND gun attachments to play with, even better than A16, my post is not just a "let's just revert back to A16" post because I'm not saying that.

 

[Ghostlight]

I really hope some sanity returns to the development direction of this game, the savage backlash the game is getting in steam is sad to see.

I agree with just about your entire OP. I am sticking with it but there is no doubt in my mind the fun of the game has greatly diminished with A17. The first week or two are tedious now and after that the end game, where the player is maxed, comes super quick; quicker than any alpha before it. The severe drop in positive reviews speaks volumes. I too blame this "casual friendly" perk system for most of the problems. By giving you every item in the game through perks, they have taken the adventure and drive to explore out of the game. At the same time, replayability is lost because I know on every new playthrough I will have all the items at the same level, every time. So very bland.

Sadly you will not see sanity return because TFP are far too stubborn for that and have said the new perks are here to stay. So really, like Dr Who and Star Wars, beloved parts of my childhood now ruined forever by bad decisions, there is nothing you can do but sit back and watch the fall.

 

[Spider]

I agree with the OP too. Sad part is any min now a member of TFP will post in here how your playing wrong and your opinion is incorrect and how this is the best game ever and totally how they always wanted it. Its like a restaurant telling you "You do like burnt steak and if you don't eat it and like it your un cultured". Gota love BUSNIESSES(that's what you are TFP no matter how much you want to think otherwise) that don't listen to their paying customers. O wait no you don't as the current steam reviews show.

 

[Vedui]

I have to say, in previous versions I very rarely cared about my character level. Or even skill level. I commonly had a lot of skill points unspent, as beyond unlocking some particular things I needed (concrete, electricity, etc), I was focusing on exploring, gathering resources, defending against zombies. Lotsa skills would just grow as I used them, which felt natural.

In A17 I feel like I'm killing zombies not for loot, not because I have to, or should, but I seek them out to get XP. XP so I can gain levels. Levels so I can unlock skills and actually progress. Progress so I can actually do things I want (resource gathering, farming, crafting,etc).

It feels like without the levels and perks, enjoying the game is so much harder.

So I count every xp, I kill as much as I can to get my xp and my levels and my perks.

Building is nowhere near as fun in A17 sadly, despite all the new items in the game, but since you can't craft them, and even painted textures were nerfed, it feels much more bare boned than previously.

Hope 17.2 helps

 

[Jeraal]

...
After 814 hours of playtime, I find myself no longer wanting to play the game at all. Normally I don't even mind jumping around between servers and starting from scratch because the game was damn fun to play at any point in the game! (A16.4).

For me and my gaming friends, he fun has been sucked out of the game with A17. The core "soul" of the game is gone, and it did have a great soul to it! Here is why we think so.

...

My hours are different, but this sums up my feelings perfectly. I have a co-worker that plays on X-Box. He has been hoping for an update towards A16. But after reading about what A17 has done, he says he's glad he's on console.

 

[Hellsmoke]

Everyone has their own opinions obviously and I agree with a few of yours. I like gun parts, I just don't like my 600 quality guns to degrade because some parts were just too hard to find and if you used a gun on horde night it was half broken. I love that I can simply fix my weapons now without losing quality. The old system resulted in me simply not using most of my guns to satisfy my ocd. Now I actually use guns and am quite enjoying it. Haven't even looked at a crossbow since a17 launched.

One thing I strongly disagree with is "devs don't listen to us". That couldn't be further from the truth. I have never been involved in any gaming community where the devs read so much in the forums and chat with people. I wouldn't be surprised if a few respond to this very thread. The devs are VERY active in this forum and if anything I think they listen a bit too much to some of us. Go to the Rockstar forums or any other forum and tell me how much dev activity you see there.

As far as listening and even asking for our opinions goes, the pimps get a 10/10 from me without hesitation.

 

[psycros]

Everyone has their own opinions obviously and I agree with a few of yours. I like gun parts, I just don't like my 600 quality guns to degrade because some parts were just too hard to find and if you used a gun on horde night it was half broken. I love that I can simply fix my weapons now without losing quality. The old system resulted in me simply not using most of my guns to satisfy my ocd. Now I actually use guns and am quite enjoying it. Haven't even looked at a crossbow since a17 launched.
One thing I strongly disagree with is "devs don't listen to us". That couldn't be further from the truth. I have never been involved in any gaming community where the devs read so much in the forums and chat with people. I wouldn't be surprised if a few respond to this very thread. The devs are VERY active in this forum and if anything I think they listen a bit too much to some of us. Go to the Rockstar forums or any other forum and tell me how much dev activity you see there.

As far as listening and even asking for our opinions goes, the pimps get a 10/10 from me without hesitation.

TFP may be active in the forums but most of what they post is hostility towards any criticism. I've rarely seen devs less interested in the opinions of their players and more dead-set on making changes in a vacuum. Case in point: the skill progression system. It was great, almost nobody ever complained about it. Now its gone and most of the fun with it. Meanwhile they add more vehicles before fixing the vanishing minibike bug, and lo and behold the new vehicles have inherited it. Almost every new change feels like groundwork for making 7D a P2W game.

 

[Cirion]

I would agree the losing degradation on repair I don't miss. That said alot of weapons also seemingly got weaker (Even when you factor in installing 5 mods).

A note on changes in EXP in 17.1 by the way that I neglected to mention

- Building EXP got buffed did it? Well, it's still awful IMO. I spent a whole day upgrading my base and the bar barely moved. Granted I am high level in my game but still, it does nothing compared to mining with an auger. Even when you're building steel structures which should give a ton of XP imo...

- Mining EXP I actually think is fine, if maybe slightly OP now, it makes the pain of grinding less now.

- I noted that with EXP from looting cabinets, this scales with your level. Why can't building EXP do the same? (If it does, I haven't noticed). So I'm happy with this exp too.

- Zombie exp is still off. It's still OP for early game, just right for mid game, and actually too low for end game. Why do I say this? Because it's a static amount of EXP and doesn't scale with your level like looting cabinets or mining. And green zombies only give around 1000 exp, far less than you should get for the effort involved. You can't easily kill green zombies without best equipment, and by then 1000 exp probably means nothing to you.

In summary, zombie exp and building exp are the two that are still broken.

If we can just get slider bars to adjust Zombie, Building, Mining, and Looting EXP I think that'll placate most of us.

I acknowledge that time is better spent just finishing the game, so if we can just get the sliders I'll be happy. Oh yeah quest EXP is also bad. I have a mod that increases reward by 5x and it STILL seems too low lol.

 

[Cadamier]

Hail and well met!

Our group has the same feelings, sentiments, thoughts too. I've asked them many times to post but they don't... We've seemingly lost one, and possibly now 2 more... So 9 goes to 6. We're hoping one comes back, but not sure, but as of tonight we'll trudge on.

 

[HungryZombie]

I agree with the OP too. Sad part is any min now a member of TFP will post in here how your playing wrong and your opinion is incorrect and how this is the best game ever and totally how they always wanted it. Its like a restaurant telling you "You do like burnt steak and if you don't eat it and like it your un cultured". Gota love BUSNIESSES(that's what you are TFP no matter how much you want to think otherwise) that don't listen to their paying customers. O wait no you don't as the current steam reviews show.

Which customers should they listen to? The ones that like it or the ones that don't?

 

[Maynard69]

TFP may be active in the forums but most of what they post is hostility towards any criticism. I've rarely seen devs less interested in the opinions of their players and more dead-set on making changes in a vacuum. Case in point: the skill progression system. It was great, almost nobody ever complained about it. Now its gone and most of the fun with it. Meanwhile they add more vehicles before fixing the vanishing minibike bug, and lo and behold the new vehicles have inherited it. Almost every new change feels like groundwork for making 7D a P2W game.

Out of those 95 (estimated) words you typed, i think maybe 2 of them hold any truth lol

Also a ton of ppl complained about learn by doing. (spam crafting, exploiting to max skills) Which is probably one of the reasons it was changed. Now I am sure many of those people are kicking themselves for being so vocal about it. lol If anything, TFP listen too much sometimes

 

[Hellsmoke]

Which customers should they listen to? The ones that like it or the ones that don't?

Exactly this is the problem, no matter what you do you can't please everyone.

Thing I like is they are down to earth human, not some faceless entity who sits around all day and plotting on how they can milk every last cent out of your pockets. Madmole made a channel showing us how the development is coming along, giving us insight on what they have in mind and people bashed him because his keyboard was too loud. Then he got bashed because he was "bad at his own game". Really, I felt so ashamed even though I had no part in it. He's like one of the nicest guys you could run into. Just sad.

The amount of crap they get on here is amazing and still they bend over backwards to try and make everyone happy. I see really nasty posts on here and I don't even see people getting banned but instead the devs or mods come in and engage in conversation.

I'm guilty of raging myself sometimes but I try not to cross the line and stay human. I don't see them being hostile at all, they troll a bit and joke around but I'd take that over what you get on most other forums any day which is pretty much nothing at all.

 

[Roland]

I agree with the OP too. Sad part is any min now a member of TFP will post in here how your playing wrong and your opinion is incorrect and how this is the best game ever and totally how they always wanted it. Its like a restaurant telling you "You do like burnt steak and if you don't eat it and like it your un cultured". Gota love BUSNIESSES(that's what you are TFP no matter how much you want to think otherwise) that don't listen to their paying customers. O wait no you don't as the current steam reviews show.

The OP for this thread was a great example of how to give feedback that is negative in nature. If you can’t tell the difference between constructive negative feedback and the type of insulting and toxic rants that would put this forum on par with YouTube or Facebook or Yahoo...don’t worry, I can.

There are more changes coming in 17.2 and gladly they are the type of changes that are configurable through the options menu so that nobody will have to feel that TFP is giving in to one side or another.

The biggest change is going to be options for xp gain rate to make progression faster or slower. Also, damage to blocks has been separated between player and zombie. Putting this together, the early game can easily be reconfigured to feel less grindy and tedious for those who feel that it is.

XP earning: 150%

Player damage to blocks: 200%

Zombie damage to blocks: 50%

Something like this could help make the early game tolerable as well as make building more viable for those who have felt it is not. The settings could even be changed later in the game if necessary.

 

[meganoth]

TFP may be active in the forums but most of what they post is hostility towards any criticism. I've rarely seen devs less interested in the opinions of their players and more dead-set on making changes in a vacuum. Case in point: the skill progression system. It was great, almost nobody ever complained about it. Now its gone and most of the fun with it. Meanwhile they add more vehicles before fixing the vanishing minibike bug, and lo and behold the new vehicles have inherited it. Almost every new change feels like groundwork for making 7D a P2W game.

Yeah sure, they will just follow your lead and forget about their own ideas in THEIR game. You wouldn't either if you ever developed a game yourself.

Just try to imagine it, how much control would you give the players of your game? Would you listen to them on balancing the game or add ideas from them that you like? Sure, you would.

BUT would you ever add something you don't like just because a part of your players want it? Or not implement an idea you like because part of your players don't like it (and others like it!) ? I highly doubt that.

 

[Maynard69]

I agree with the OP too. Sad part is any min now a member of TFP will post in here how your playing wrong and your opinion is incorrect and how this is the best game ever and totally how they always wanted it. Its like a restaurant telling you "You do like burnt steak and if you don't eat it and like it your un cultured". Gota love BUSNIESSES(that's what you are TFP no matter how much you want to think otherwise) that don't listen to their paying customers. O wait no you don't as the current steam reviews show.

More like a restaurant where you pay for your steak upfront, and its posted on the door that the steak is still under development, that you can offer input as to you preferences for the steak but will have no say in how the chef decides to prepare it. You agree, then when it comes out well-done you say "oh I wanted it rare" and the chef and all the workers and customers laugh at you because its not that type of restaurant.

 

[Cirion]

The OP for this thread was a great example of how to give feedback that is negative in nature. If you can’t tell the difference between constructive negative feedback and the type of insulting and toxic rants that would put this forum on par with YouTube or Facebook or Yahoo...don’t worry, I can.
There are more changes coming in 17.2 and gladly they are the type of changes that are configurable through the options menu so that nobody will have to feel that TFP is giving in to one side or another.

The biggest change is going to be options for xp gain rate to make progression faster or slower. Also, damage to blocks has been separated between player and zombie. Putting this together, the early game can easily be reconfigured to feel less grindy and tedious for those who feel that it is.

XP earning: 150%

Player damage to blocks: 200%

Zombie damage to blocks: 50%

Something like this could help make the early game tolerable as well as make building more viable for those who have felt it is not. The settings could even be changed later in the game if necessary.

Thanks for these changes, but is there any chance of further splitting out the EXP gain among building, zombie kills, etc?

If you read my post you'll note that I think building exp is completely broken compared to mining, zombies etc and a simple multiplier makes the overall grind better, but still doesn't improve life for builders relatively speaking. Building a steel block should give more than a paltry 100 exp given the grind to get the mats to make one. 100 exp is almost what a WOOD block should give honestly. What was the exp rate of building in A16? It seemed way higher. Can we just bring that back? Yes you can apply a bigger multiplier to ALL forms of exp, but if you set it too high, it would make building balanced but everything else imbalanced.

 

[Benjiro]

It's finally gone below the 50% mark, a huge fall for such a brilliant game, and one I would dearly like to see reversed. Either way, we will keep an eye on future patches to see if the game has returned to it's former glory.

It is indeed sad to see 49% Pos/Neg now but this is the stuff that happens when you rewrite a game for a long time without community feedback. Even the first tastes of the new Perk system, showed a divided community.

But i can only do one thing and that is fully and wholeheartedly agree with your review. The fun factor is just gone for people like me. Where is the exploring to find books... Where was the fun when you see your skill naturally increases when you did things. The trill of finding a good book or ...

And let us all not forget the wonderful stamina system, that makes you feel like your a 250kg guy with asthma. And how you feel even less in control of your character then in the past. With constant micro pauses to regenerate where you feel like constantly wasting time. Let alone the inability to really manage your stamina anymore with food like in the past.

I used to play with my brother-in-law before ( Chinese, speaks mandarin ) and he has difficulty reading English. But it was not too hard on him to play 7D2D and he loved it. The auto skill gains worked great, he was able to use pictures to figure out recipes. He only needed help with some of the skills texts to learn and that was it. He quickly knew Miner69 and those skills

Now, A17 is so much text and specialization in the perk system, that he simply does not care anymore. A15/A16 you can play without doing a lot of reading. A17 you need to know the system, how it interacts, how A interacts with B, reading journals, quests, etc.

The new Stamina system is hard for him to understand. Perks are just ugly to explain ( especially because some do not even do what they are written ) and he keeps putting points in skills that are useless for him but because he thinks they are useful ( like Int and crafting when the game starts ).

The lack of finding things, simply means he was building simple bases. And lets not mention POIs, how many times he keeps dying on them because of the stamina system and hidden zombies. And the whole bedroll changes, yay, brilliant idea... Nothing more fun as having Zombie spawn when the POI respawn was not empty.

I do not blame him for being frustrated, i already gave up on A17. Its just not fun ...

The changes affect a lot of people and i am honest when saying: We all A17 to be A15/A16 with more content. Not less content ( still no smell, crappy caves, still no bandits, no behemoth, ... ).

Its a different game, that some people like it and others dislike it. But its the first Alpha that has really hurt the community in a massive way. And no, mod your way out is not the solution. Some changes can not be undone with mods. And most people do not have the skills to mod games. This is not some steam workshop integrated game where people can pick and choose mods in a easy way with little knowledge. Let alone people like my brother-in-law.