PC Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

What is this "1up" thing?
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Translation: I’ve already decided it’s impossible so I’m asking how it is possible rhetorically and if you actually answer my question you’re being condescending.

 
The game is called "7days to die" so it's clearly the developers intention for the game to try and kill you on day 7.. hence the game title.. I fully support the developers in getting rid of any exploits for blood moons. I disagree with you saying the game forces you into 1 style to play. The game is mostly build around blood moons which is when the game will try to kill you.

There are options to set the zombie speed to walk speed and difficulty settings to lower your gamestage progress. But complaining about exploits being fixed is absurd as far as i'm concerned.

 
From the steam forums, feedback on Rolands explanations and or comments.
surprisingly its quite productive and civil.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/0/3441214221469076353/?tscn=1547485881
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I'm not in a position right now to easily respond over there but I do want to answer the accusation that I'm "blaming the player instead of the game" and saying "git gud" to casuals. I will admit that IF building bases in a variety of ways really and truly is impossible (including having a viable underground blood moon defense base) then I do agree that it is the game's fault and not the player's fault.

But it isn't impossible.

That is my point. The assertion that there is but one way to build a base now because the devs have nerfed all but the one strategy they want us to use is false from the get go. If the update had just released moments ago then those saying "It's impossible!!!" might have a potentially viable case since it could turn out to be true. But at the time of this thread's writing it had already been disproven and every day people are finding new ways to build a defense that is new. So to continue this narrative that there is only one way to build at this point is particularly closed-minded.

As for casuals, I am not telling those of you with limited time to play to just "git gud". I'm telling you that there are already youtubes you can watch, threads you can read, diagrams that you can analyze already posted by the people who like to solve these challenges and all you need to do is pick a design and go with it and maybe even alter it slightly to make it your own. And let's please not pretend that watching what others do is a sign of bad design of A17 because people have been posting their build strategies since A1 and other people have been thankfully using those strategies in their own game even though they didn't figure them out themselves. Sharing of ideas is a huge part of this community or was until the few threads started on A17 strategy got sidelined by threads screaming, "It's IMPOSSIBLE"

The game got more difficult and the re-learning curve got more steep but it is still the same song and dance of every single alpha update. People flounder and then they learn and then it all feels too easy. I have no doubt that there will be many many base designs and blood moon defense strategies to choose from by time A18 begins and our song starts playing again.

 
I'm not in a position right now to easily respond over there but I do want to answer the accusation that I'm "blaming the player instead of the game" and saying "git gud" to casuals. I will admit that IF building bases in a variety of ways really and truly is impossible (including having a viable underground blood moon defense base) then I do agree that it is the game's fault and not the player's fault.
But it isn't impossible.

That is my point. The assertion that there is but one way to build a base now because the devs have nerfed all but the one strategy they want us to use is false from the get go. If the update had just released moments ago then those saying "It's impossible!!!" might have a potentially viable case since it could turn out to be true. But at the time of this thread's writing it had already been disproven and every day people are finding new ways to build a defense that is new. So to continue this narrative that there is only one way to build at this point is particularly closed-minded.

As for casuals, I am not telling those of you with limited time to play to just "git gud". I'm telling you that there are already youtubes you can watch, threads you can read, diagrams that you can analyze already posted by the people who like to solve these challenges and all you need to do is pick a design and go with it and maybe even alter it slightly to make it your own. And let's please not pretend that watching what others do is a sign of bad design of A17 because people have been posting their build strategies since A1 and other people have been thankfully using those strategies in their own game even though they didn't figure them out themselves. Sharing of ideas is a huge part of this community or was until the few threads started on A17 strategy got sidelined by threads screaming, "It's IMPOSSIBLE"

The game got more difficult and the re-learning curve got more steep but it is still the same song and dance of every single alpha update. People flounder and then they learn and then it all feels too easy. I have no doubt that there will be many many base designs and blood moon defense strategies to choose from by time A18 begins and our song starts playing again.
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He does have a point im afraid.

Although it seems ramps were nerfed out of existance with some testing i found if you lower the gap from zombies jumping 3 blocks to 1 block they will still loop endlessly........ Periodically 1 will stop to swipe at something structural but overall the ramp loop still works

We also had an underground fall damage zombie chewing tunnel with blade anddart traps that also wasuntouchable by zombies.

My POV is this............... using one of the few designs that works currently isnt innovative or exciting. Its simply adapting to an ever growing super zombie with hive like silent communication and 3d laser scanning from 100 meters away architectural genious capabilities that magically use soft tissue and bone to destroy reinforced concrete like it was wet tissue paper and then dong the same to 8 more solid concrete walls in less than 1 minute, while suffering no loss of speed strength or endurance. w/e thier drinking i'll have a double please.

I get its a game but everyone playing similiar to everyone else cuz we have to isnt much fun imo.

Id like masses of zombies dumb as hell that just slowly overpower or overwhelm defences from all directions at once.

 
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Thanks for your feedback. I think as time goes on the easy exploits that have been found regarding the new AI will be closed and a new variety of building options will be discovered by the players. Already we are seeing builds being reported by players that other players initially stated were impossible. Some players are leaders and love to experiment and discover the secrets and other players need those players to post their findings so they can have fun too.
Adaptation will result in many varieties of ways to defend against the enemies that want to kill you. What the developers don't want are methods that are too easy or don't require effort. It's not that they took your list of building strategies and threw darts at them. It is that they looked at general behaviors of zombies and decided what they wanted and what they didn't want.

They don't want zombies running in a loop so they will seek to fix situations that result in a loop.

They don't want zombies standing around or spinning in circles if they can't reach you. So they talked about it and felt that zombie going berserk and laying waste to nearby blocks was something that seemed fitting and would avoid the situation they didn't want.

They don't want zombies partitioned away from the underworld so they gave them the ability to dig.

They don't want zombies to be stopped by simple gaps so they gave them the ability to jump.

See? It's all about the zombie behavior they do and don't want. They are not directly trying to kill player options. What they hope is that players will rise to the challenge that the new behaviors create and come up with creative ways to defend. They don't want players to say, "I guess TFP doesn't want me to play underground." They do want players to say, "Wow, I wonder how I can be successful underground given the new abilities."

Now, as far as avoiding traps, I'm pretty sure TFP doesn't want them doing that and so I'm sure they will look at it. I can promise you that once they have the zombies behaving the way they want the zombies to behave they will call it quits and move on. They won't be continually trying to wreck every good player idea that comes along (unless it is a blatant exploit like the storage chest walls you mentioned)
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I have to respectfully disagree with this disagreement. Yes, there were some exploits such as using zombie corpses to dupe items. That was fixed by removing the capability of zombies carrying loot. Now, if they "drop" loot, they spawn a container. Zombies can no longer contain loot, and can also not be harvested. A second step was taken a few builds into experimental to spawn gore blocks along the road to deal with the side effect of removing zombie loot.

But you never disagreed with the actual contention that the devs decided "Despite our players utilizing playstyle a, b, or c, we want them to do d so we will make a, b, and c nonworkable." Which is what happened. And then, as you said, it's about the zombie behavior that the devs, not the players, do or don't want. And when we do come up with creative ways, such as figuring out the pathing of zombies or some other game mechanic, that option will be removed.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we had playstyles, those playstyles have been penalized, and we are developing new ones that may or may not be penalized if the devs decide that they don't play the game the same way, or don't want us to play that way.

Personally, I loved my underground bases. I would have enjoyed if the devs had given me a challenge to rise to regarding that. I would have loved an air mechanic such as in Empyrion Galactic Survival. Maybe we need to provide ourselves with oxygen underground, maybe we have gas pockets to deal with, or even some burning lava. That would be a challenge to rise to. Instead if you happen to log in on a horde night and you're in your underground base the zeds will find a point in your tunnels that only has a single wooden block and they'll aim for that, rather than your enclosed concrete bunker you're in because they "know" where your blocks are, sixty meters below their feet.

- - - Updated - - -

The moral I'm getting from this thread is that when you find a tactic that works, that you consider to be clever but others might call an 'exploit', don't get all excited and stick videos of it on Youtube and start boasting about it. Just quietly use it, and the devs don't know it exists, they won't neutralise it.
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This is the trick. I hate it when I see a cool trick or build on a video because I now know if I want to do that I best be quick before it is deemed undesirable.

 
I will just address this one and say that open world sandbox games do NOT mean you can IGNORE or SKIP the core rules of the world.One of core rules is resource investment or active participation in 7 day hordes.

Its as core and as mandatory as hitting things to get resources, needing crafting station to craft advanced items, drinking and eating to keep yourself alife and getting exp to unlock new stuff.

Skipping any single thing of these is NOT a "sandbox player choice", its a cheat, exploit, hack.

If you don't want to participate in the horde and be safe, then build yourself enough traps to passively kill the Zs, exploiting AI to be 100% safe at all times is not "player choice", if you want it to be like that, then disable zombie spawns.

Using unintended exploits is not "player choice", its just that - an exploit, a cheat, an abuse of unintended AI behavior.

Yes, cheaging is also a "player choice" and a "playstyle", but don't expect it to never be addressed.

Open world sandbox doesn't mean no rules, if you want no rules to apply, play in debug mode with creative menu enabled.

If 7 day hordes could be exploited without your direct imput, without any effort, without any material use like in previous alphas, what would be the point to even have them?

You effectively cheated before, now you can't, you ignored basic world rule by exploiting, now you can't.

Playstyle was NOT removed, a cheat exploit was elliminated.

An issue was fixed, not playstyle removed, you like to be a mole, you can still be a mole, just don't expect to be invincible, invulnerable mole.

Risk vs reward.
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Whereas I do agree with your general sentiment I do have to argue with your semantics. If I make a choice to exploit something, I have made a choice. And I am a player. It might be the wrong choice. It might be a choice you disagree with. But let's not pretend that making a choice is, erm, not making a choice.

And if digging an underground base in alpha 16 is somehow cheating, I fail to see how the reverse is true for taking over a poi and standing on the roof for your first seven day horde in 17. You know that you will be safe and will face no chance of dying so long as you don't fall over the edge.

Also, so far I do not know that the devs have given us their approved playstyle. I mean, we've seen them do some gameplay videos every so often, but they have yet to instruct us on their approved method of playing the game. So until the devs tell me that using a shovel and pick to dig is cheating, I am not sure I can believe that line.

 
All the players I know who had an underground base fought the horde mostly in a separate horde base. Some even ran around on the street and fought the Horde without a base.
I think what people liked most was the possibility to choose. If they didn't have time to prepare for the horde or just weren't in the mood to fight the horde, they could sit them out. They could even go into the mine and work productively while the horde rampaged on top of them.

Another advantage of a safe base is that you can also relax. If you're constantly under tension, it tires you out very quickly. That's why successful games often change pace. You have challenging phases, phases in which you have to think and phases in which you can just relax and get a story told.

I also think that a "Dig / No Dig" option here would bring more relaxation into the discussion.
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Nailed it! This is exactly what it's about.

For those who continue to assume we want to be "completely safe", you are wrong. Everyone knows how to turn off the zombies and most people can mod enough to make indestructable blocks so if being safe is what people wanted they would do so.

I also agree that an option for hordes would be a good thing, as is now I would just disable them because the ai isn't working right and building a base to trick them which seems like the only valid option atm just isn't that fun to me.

I love to build don't get me wrong, I just like to combine looks with strength instead of building some ugly ramp thing so the ai doesn't chew through the base in seconds. That or loads of spikes that will mostly remain untouched because they all use the same path.

I'm not too upset about digging I just stopped building underground. For all those saying you can still build underground, sure you can. You will however have zombies digging down to you and that includes screamers which will show up regularly because people use these underground bases to craft and kill time at night.

You will often come up to find a group dug half way down, good luck getting them out of there and patching that up. Any of you see the prices on the ground blocks lately?

At the end of the day the ai isn't finished but as someone who has been playing a long time and has built a lot of bases..building lost a lot of appeal to me not only because of digging zombies but also because of the increased damage zombies do to blocks which I find to be even worse.

I don't know how to fix it or what the perfect horde should look like, all I know is I feel restricted in building this alpha due to the reasons stated above.

I can still survive, you don't need a base to survive. There are plenty of cheese tactics to survive and that is my point, if they patched the last remaining cheese by increasing damage to blocks or making zombies dig, I'd crack my knuckles and say "alright lets get to work". But they didn't patch all the cheese, all this change did was restrict building so far.

Someone posted that people on their server log out at horde night, that doesn't seem they are having fun which is the most important thing at the end of the day.

 
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Someone posted that people on their server log out at horde night, that doesn't seem they are having fun which is the most important thing at the end of the day.
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Someone has posted this since the beginning of horde nights. This can't be used to point at A17 specifically...

Bottom line is that the devs have announced plans to add in more options sooner than they originally planned in order to help everyone get through the rest of development.

There is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard, or that single ply tp your boss buys for the staff bathroom. Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17, will be able to lower that slider to the point that even the most basic shack with half damaged door will still take the zombies 3 weeks to break through.

So buck up. Everyone will get what they want sooner than we thought they would.

 
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Someone has posted this since the beginning of horde nights. This can't be used to point at A17 specifically...

Bottom line is that the devs have announced plans to add in more options sooner than they originally planned in order to help everyone get through the rest of development.

There is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard, or that single ply tp your boss buys for the staff bathroom. Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17, will be able to lower that slider to the point that even the most basic shack with half damaged door will still take the zombies 3 weeks to break through.

So buck up. Everyone will get what they want sooner than we thought they would.
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Oh yeah I'm sure they will figure it out, I don't doubt them and I'm lookong forward to those settings they have planned. You said something very interesting..

"To help everyone get through the rest of development"

I'm very aware that in order to develop the game they gotta break stuff and try things out or they may as well just go gold and release. They need to have the freedom to work on stuff so things will break.

Any and all complaints from me other than the console md5 issue which is history for me as I no longer play on console, are strictly feedback and discussion.

Thinking that the devs are plotting against us is ridiculous. I'm still enjoying the game and if something is "too bad" I just mod it but that is very rarely the case. (Stamina)

 
Someone has posted this since the beginning of horde nights. This can't be used to point at A17 specifically...

Bottom line is that the devs have announced plans to add in more options sooner than they originally planned in order to help everyone get through the rest of development.

There is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard, or that single ply tp your boss buys for the staff bathroom. Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17, will be able to lower that slider to the point that even the most basic shack with half damaged door will still take the zombies 3 weeks to break through.

So buck up. Everyone will get what they want sooner than we thought they would.
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Hey Roland? I can't test it at the moment, but I was wondering. Death still lowers game stage right? I mean, I know it's like the absolute worse and basically final way to say "screw it all, I'm making this easier", but you can frankly swallow glass and wake up to things just a little sunnier right?

 
Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17(...)
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... and meanwhile, Roland is making great progress in Newspeak ... Doubleplusgood.

 
Someone has posted this since the beginning of horde nights. This can't be used to point at A17 specifically...

Bottom line is that the devs have announced plans to add in more options sooner than they originally planned in order to help everyone get through the rest of development.

There is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard, or that single ply tp your boss buys for the staff bathroom. Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17, will be able to lower that slider to the point that even the most basic shack with half damaged door will still take the zombies 3 weeks to break through.

So buck up. Everyone will get what they want sooner than we thought they would.
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At least you dont sound irratated AT ALL with thiscomment lol

 
I disagree with you saying the game forces you into 1 style to play. The game is mostly build around blood moons which is when the game will try to kill you.
There are options to set the zombie speed to walk speed and difficulty settings to lower your gamestage progress. But complaining about exploits being fixed is absurd as far as i'm concerned.
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I agree with this statement honestly, the problem is everyone is stuck trying to build like they used too, I have created several variations of bases and almost none of them rely on cheesing the zeds AI pathing.

From my experience

Hellsmoke= I'm not too upset about digging I just stopped building underground. For all those saying you can still build underground said:
F[/B]irst

Attempt

In

Learning

I think what people liked most was the possibility to choose.
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You still can, what they were getting at is there were exploits used to defeat the challenge of the game without ever really putting any effort into defeating it, while I agree with some I still disagree with others.

Don't expect to just pick up the game and be a master after a few days of playing it, this game will challenge you, you are only limited by your creativity, that does unfortunately, mean, Learn the game, and git gud. I have seen numerous players think they knew how to build only to see their designs were extremely inferior.

Roland said:
here is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard,
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Doesn't this already exist in the form on Block durability option? I usually play on default or harder settings so correct me if I'm wrong here.

using one of the few designs that works currently isnt innovative or exciting.
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I still build pretty much however I want to, I design bases with a premise of "hey this sounds fun, I'm do this." I work out all the kinks after I see what the hordes do, the Slow event hordes are pretty good at telling me where they want to go,

Just don't take away my ability to deal with the horde night on foot without my base involved, I am purposely putting myself at risk of dying easier because I enjoy kiting the horde and this helps sharpen my reflexes and aiming as a personal player.

Something about there being phases and there should be a phase where if you want to relax and sit a horde night out you should be able too and productively mine underground or something.
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You still can do this if you build electrical traps and design them correctly.
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Someone has posted this since the beginning of horde nights. This can't be used to point at A17 specifically...

Bottom line is that the devs have announced plans to add in more options sooner than they originally planned in order to help everyone get through the rest of development.

There is a plan to add a separate slider for zombie damage vs blocks so that everyone can choose to basically have their concrete be made of actual concrete, chilled butter, wet cardboard, or that single ply tp your boss buys for the staff bathroom. Those who are tired of the d̶i̶f̶f̶i̶c̶u̶l̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶l̶l̶e̶n̶g̶e̶...er...sorry....tedium and lazy dev shenanigans of raw A17, will be able to lower that slider to the point that even the most basic shack with half damaged door will still take the zombies 3 weeks to break through.

So buck up. Everyone will get what they want sooner than we thought they would.
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When devs start to add sliders and "options" it means they are lost, or can't admit mistakes. Anyways I don't think it matters, block damage is just another factor in the equation, if these delta force zeds bash a single block and only use a minimal fraction of the traps, thanks to the new, improved, "revolutionary" A.I. they will shred though kryptonite anyways.

About the "difficulty and challenge" sarcasm my A16 bases were wonderful, had tons of work and I fought and repaired them with a knife in my teeths in BM horde. In A17 I am in the other side of ramps, it's braindead and a walk in the park, so if this the purpose of the devs, well, it's not working. Difficulty is fine, but if we lose freedom in a sandbox, you break immersion with changes that make not sense and render useless a bunch of options the game gets worse, that's a huge mistake, zeds are stupid in pop culture, they bash walls and groan, they can't analyze a battlefield to find the best way to a brain.

Underground bases ... I can't understand and I try, all the commitment to ruin them ... if someone doesn't want to fight hordes now will get a bicycle way before Day 7 and have a relaxed night trip all night long. Not that I care, I didn't hide in a hole but now I must mine with a shotgun in the toolbelt because those zeds with supernatural powers (/s) know where I am 20 meters into solid stone and often I must clean a ridiculous wanderer horde in a hole by dawn. It breaks immersion ... a little bit.

Guys, you have nerfed the freedom to build fancy bases in one game where this was the best part, by far, as combat and gunplay are (and always were) subpar. I don't really think you want this, it made the game unique and thrilling, just a friendly advice.

 
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When devs start to add sliders and "options" it means they are lost, or can't admit mistakes.
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I think that for some of you no matter what step they take next it is a sign to you that they are lost or can’t admit mistakes...

This takes the cake though. They literally are adding in options solely for the community so that those who have a tough time rolling with the ups and downs of development can tailor their experience. The devs don’t need them or want them to finish up development. They know what they want and it is called default. I pray they don’t spend time trying to balance all the new gameplay iterations because of all the new options.

I know I’ll probably reflexively ban the first person that sets xp gain to 200%, zombie block damage to 0%, and then complains that the game is over by day two and so boring and easy... ;)

 
I think that for some of you no matter what step they take next it is a sign to you that they are lost or can’t admit mistakes...
This takes the cake though. They literally are adding in options solely for the community so that those who have a tough time rolling with the ups and downs of development can tailor their experience. The devs don’t need them or want them to finish up development. They know what they want and it is called default. I pray they don’t spend time trying to balance all the new gameplay iterations because of all the new options.

I know I’ll probably reflexively ban the first person that sets xp gain to 200%, zombie block damage to 0%, and then complains that the game is over by day two and so boring and easy... ;)
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Well, let me get my point straight, I think A17, even with some good nice features, is a dramatic step in the wrong direction in a game, even with all the bugs and early acess shenanigans, that I loved (800 hours here) ... so yeah, sliders won't save this mess, they need to acknowledge the mistake and get back to the drawing board.

 
Doesn't this already exist in the form on Block durability option? I usually play on default or harder settings so correct me if I'm wrong here.
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There is block durability which makes blocks easier or tougher to break for both zombies and players. The new option will reduce or increase exclusively zombie damage against blocks.

So you could turn block durability down low but also turn zombie damage down low so they still have a tough time breaking your walls but you have an easier time mining. That’s the difference.

Just don't take away my ability to deal with the horde night on foot without my base involved, I am purposely putting myself at risk of dying easier because I enjoy kiting the horde and this helps sharpen my reflexes and aiming as a personal player.
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Personally I think night is too easy because zombie speed is so slow. Even on nightmare you quickly gain distance on even the fastest enemies. The way it should be in my mind is that sprint is just barely under player speed so that they aren’t ditched so easily. Nightmare speed should be faster than player run speed. Run should be the current sprint and jog is probably fine where it’s at—a slightly faster walk that puts extra pressure on POI clearing (for those who do it by remaining in the building...)

BUT...I’m no hypocrite. ;) TFP should just leave all the speeds but the default speeds the hell alone until they are all done with the default game experience. I don’t want them getting caught up trying to make every option choice balanced.

 
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Speaking of nightmare run speed, did they reduce it in the latest patch? I feel like they're slower than before. Nightmare should be right on my arse! Lol

#A17isMostFunVersion

(I see you Roland, I'll join)

 
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