PC Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Damocles]

Regarding new players and the skill-tree: for the first couple of levels there could be a "suggested skill" to pick for new players to survive.

It requires some experience to know how important cooking and the intelligence perks are for example. new player might miss-spec too early and spend their points on combat perks alone.

The information could pop up once for each level (maybe the first 8) when the skill overview is being opened.

 

[mr.natural]

Regarding new players and the skill-tree: for the first couple of levels there could be a "suggested skill" to pick for new players to survive.
It requires some experience to know how important cooking and the intelligence perks are for example. new player might miss-spec too early and spend their points on combat perks alone.

The information could pop up once for each level (maybe the first 8) when the skill overview is being opened.

after dying a couple of times and a few restarts later they'll figger it out

Still difficult to state which are "essential" as it depends on playstyle.

 

[RipClaw]

after dying a couple of times and a few restarts later they'll figger it out

It is more likely that players are so frustrated that they delete the game from the disc, give a negative rating and advise others against the game. I've seen players spend thousands of hours on "7 Days to die" but now give up frustrated because it's not the game they loved so much anymore.

Still difficult to state which are "essential" as it depends on playstyle.

It would help if the FP could provide the perks with proper descriptions. For example if Lucky Looter says "Adds 50 to loot bonus" you don't know what the 50 means because you don't understand how the loot system works.

Or you don't see any changes when you invest points. If I hit a zombie with the club before and he doesn't even flinch and later I send the same zombie 3m through the air then I see the change but if I'm dealing with random events I don't see any change like e.g. Intrinsic Immunity.

 

[mr.natural]

Who needs players with such a short attention span? And for the others, adapt or die

 

[RipClaw]

Who needs players with such a short attention span?

The Fun Pimps who make their living selling the game ?

And for the others, adapt or die

Right now, it's more like "Die a lot until you adapt."

I've adapted to the new game but it's really not as much fun as it used to be.

 

[RipClaw]

- no loot after bloodmoon horde. It was a pleasure in A16.4 to look for rewards after a difficult night and let me say... rewarding. In A17 you just should hope that the night will finish

I'd even say that loot in general is a problem. When you could loot the zombies you had the chance for good loot with every single zombie. Now the zombies rarely drop anything and in most cases it is hardly worth the effort.

It's even worse if you go into bigger POIs at a higher gamestage. You fight your way through the masses of zombies with the hope of good loot and at the end you get a few rounds of ammunition and a few crappy guns which you can now produce yourself in better quality. So it's no wonder that many people now use the back entrance to bypass most zombies.

- standard zs are now killing machine with radar. In A16.4 zs were rightly dumb they follow a casual path because as the lore says zs do not have working brains now it may even be considered similar to battlefield because zs tracks you everywhere and even will flow alltogheter in the weak spot of your base. What a frustration to see dozen zs during bm horde run for miles just to reach the weak spot created in your defence... how they even know that there is one? No suspense in A17: you have a weak spot they for sure will find it. In A16.4 you were hoping in A17 you must consider a fact the entering: what to do WHEN they'll enter because for sure they'll do. There is no point nor adventure in doing your base on a mountain or under the surface: they'll enter anyway so no point in exploring or changing base location

You can use the zombie's intelligence against them. I have less problems with that but what annoys me is this destruction mode.

It seems to be used as a universal solution. If a zombie gets fall damage then he goes into the destruction mode. If the path is too long, he goes into destruction mode. If he can't reach the target he goes into the destruction mode.

- unbalanced quests: the quests were added as we asked thank you. Unfortunately the reward received is already useless when the player reach the minimum level needed to do even the easy ones. Maybe I'm not an action games player but... no and what about the so called quest area? There is a quest area: that is a tower defense game and the immersion by doing that is killed

I can only agree with you. The quests don't bring really good rewards. I recently did a tier 5 quest and spent the whole day clearing the hospital of zombies. The rewards included 30 shots of shotgun ammo and some Q2 armor parts. That's just a joke.

 

[mr.natural]

The Fun Pimps who make their living selling the game ?


Right now, it's more like "Die a lot until you adapt."

I've adapted to the new game but it's really not as much fun as it used to be.

TFP are not targeting those flashplayer type of players.

And the older versions of 7d2d are stil available, pick the one you like most.

But I must admit that A17.2 is too unbalanced and the borked RWG s*cks big time. So I play mods now instead of complaining about the obvious. I know that the next update will be better.

Don't get old too quickly (reluctance to change) and step out of your comfort zone, be creative, enjoy.

 

[RipClaw]

TFP are not targeting those flashplayer type of players.

I don't think any of us know what kind of players the fun pimps are targeting.

Many players who complain now have invested thousands of hours in the game. You can hardly blame them for not having patience. But you already notice the frustration with some players that the game has changed so much.

Some Youtubers who have been playing the game for years have stopped their Let's Play series because they were so frustrated how the game changed that they just didn't enjoy it anymore.

And the older versions of 7d2d are stil available, pick the one you like most.

That's what some players did. But it's not a good sign if people prefer to go back to an older version with worse graphics instead of playing the new version.

But I must admit that A17.2 is too unbalanced and the borked RWG s*cks big time. So I play mods now instead of complaining about the obvious.

Sure I could mod anything I don't like but that doesn't really help a new player. He won't install mods immediately when he plays the game for the first time.

I know that the next update will be better.

You mean you're hoping the next version will be better. But surely you can't be there because you don't know what will change.

I thought at the beginning that the Alpha 17 would be like the Alpha 16 with better graphics but I didn't expect such radical changes.

Don't get old too quickly (reluctance to change) and step out of your comfort zone, be creative, enjoy.

The comfort zone is not called that for nothing. There it is simply comfortable and one feels well.

Where's your comfort zone? Imagine the Fun Pimps would cut the part you enjoy the most. There you would be certainly not enthusiastic.

 

[meganoth]

You mean you're hoping the next version will be better. But surely you can't be there because you don't know what will change.

I thought at the beginning that the Alpha 17 would be like the Alpha 16 with better graphics but I didn't expect such radical changes.

The perk change was added relatively late but no loot from zombies and changed weapon system were announced quite early iirc so you should have known that the game would change in what you call radical ways.

As far as the plans for A18 are known they want to add lots of items, mods and legendary items, (addressing two of the three complaints you voiced in your previous post by the way), and fix RWG. If that is what Mr.Natural doesn't like about A17.2 then he might be right to be optimistic.

The comfort zone is not called that for nothing. There it is simply comfortable and one feels well.

Where's your comfort zone? Imagine the Fun Pimps would cut the part you enjoy the most. There you would be certainly not enthusiastic.

Lets call it the complacency zone. Its not called that for nothing :smile-new: . No, seriously, anybody who bought the game in the middle of alpha development should be aware that the game might still change a lot. Steam points this out, but no matter how big the letters are set, people have to experience it to ultimately know what that means. If someone has a relatively narrow taste in game mechanics or is change-averse or builds a "comfort" zone around him then EA is a hard place to be.

You can't buy an EA game (except if it already is in the beta phase) in the safe knowledge that you will get just more of the same and polished. Instead (and that is clearly stated by steam) you should only buy EA if you are happy about the game as it is at that moment. It could be the last version ever or it could be the only version that does suit your tastes.

 

[mr.natural]

Thank you meganoth, excactly my points elaborated.

 

[Roland]

Sure I could mod anything I don't like but that doesn't really help a new player. He won't install mods immediately when he plays the game for the first time.

New players aren’t desiring to mod. Most of the positive reviews are coming from new players who have no nostalgic comparisons coloring their enjoyment. Most of the negative reviews from new players are regarding performance. The radical changes made in A17 aren’t driving new players away or forcing them to have to mod. I haven’t read a single review from a brand new player regarding digging zombies or the perk system. That all comes from old players.

 

[FishStyk]

I found myself watching markapliers playthrough of 7d2d. Back then the game was on alpha 4 and still quite rough. Despite how rough the game was back then, watching these playthroughs reminded me of what I really used to love about the game, which has been lost somewhere between a4 and a17. Bit by bit the FP seem to be turning the game from a survival sandbox game to a traditional RPG. Now we have vendors, quests, skill points and seem to be moving towards some sort of fallout like RPG. Don’t get me wrong, I like fallout, but I already have fallout. There are tons of good RPG’s out there. I’m beginning to think the great game FP made was just a fluke, and they’ve no idea what made it successful.

As far as the arguments of comfort zones and changing betas, those arguments are ridiculous. If you want to disregard criticism of the game, fine, do so, but don’t pathologize those you disagree with or pretend you know why we’re being critical. That’s like me saying you like the game because you are a fan boy who can’t think for himself.

 

[FishStyk]

New players aren’t desiring to mod. Most of the positive reviews are coming from new players who have no nostalgic comparisons coloring their enjoyment. Most of the negative reviews from new players are regarding performance. The radical changes made in A17 aren’t driving new players away or forcing them to have to mod. I haven’t read a single review from a brand new player regarding digging zombies or the perk system. That all comes from old players.

Fair point, but another way of looking at it is that many of those that have more information, how the game used to be and how the game is now, think the game was better the old way. The new players, without a frame of reference, are fine with the new gameplay, but they may well like the older game play better if they could play it. You're putting more trust in the assessment of those with the least information. That's seems unwise.

 

[meganoth]

As far as the arguments of comfort zones and changing betas, those arguments are ridiculous. If you want to disregard criticism of the game, fine, do so, but don’t pathologize those you disagree with or pretend you know why we’re being critical. That’s like me saying you like the game because you are a fan boy who can’t think for himself.

I know why people who wanted a survival sandbox for example don't like 7D2D anymore: Because when 7D2D was only a survival sandbox (without RPG and just minimal tower defense) in earlier alphas they saw exactly the game they wanted. BUT it was an unfinished game with the RPG and tower defense features still missing.

This is about different tastes. Early alphas drew lots of sandbox players in, players whose taste isn't served exactly with what 7D2D is now. That doesn't mean the taste of those old players is wrong, but it also doesn't mean their taste is what 7D2D has to look like in the end.

And there are lots of "old" players who like what 7D2D has become. It seems their comfort zone is big enough to have liked the old 7D2D but also the current mix. Or they have an easier time to adapt or they simply are less discriminating. The answer is probably different for each person.

 

[Roland]

Fair point, but another way of looking at it is that many of those that have more information, how the game used to be and how the game is now, think the game was better the old way. The new players, without a frame of reference, are fine with the new gameplay, but they may well like the older game play better if they could play it. You're putting more trust in the assessment of those with the least information. That's seems unwise.

Except I'm not talking about causality. TFP isn't looking to new players to decide how they design the game. They are looking to themselves and their own roadmap. It isn't their trust in the assessment of any group of players that is driving development. Development by a committee of 1000s isn't their goal.

I'm just pointing out that the reaction (not cause) of the design changes in A17 shows that fresh eyes don't necessarily see them as bad or unfun.

 

[RipClaw]

The perk change was added relatively late but no loot from zombies and changed weapon system were announced quite early iirc so you should have known that the game would change in what you call radical ways.

I didn't follow the developer forum but the videos Mad Mole published about the Alpha 17 were all about the look at the beginning.

The first video that showed the weapons mods was at the end of march. It was clear that the mods would be added but not that the weapon parts would be removed. And especially not that weapons without mods are much weaker. The mods that were presented first were different triggers, a magazine extender and a scope. I didn't hear anything about that the damage was affected and in the video it was never shown.

In the video he released in the middle of April last year the zombies could still be looted. In the video he released at the end of august it was mentioned for the first time that zombies can't be looted anymore. This was also added to the developer diary at the end of august.

Also it became clear that the zombies will not be harvested any more and that we will not get any more bones. At that time the same concerns were expressed that are now boiling up in the forum again and again.

As far as the plans for A18 are known they want to add lots of items, mods and legendary items, (addressing two of the three complaints you voiced in your previous post by the way), and fix RWG. If that is what Mr.Natural doesn't like about A17.2 then he might be right to be optimistic.

We know the legendary items are coming but you don't know what they will bring. If these are just painted weapons with ridiculous bonus effects, that won't change the problem.

And as for the mods, I hope that there will finally be more mods for tools instead of just for weapons. I'm sick and tired of guns. Now the builders should get some love again.

Lets call it the complacency zone. Its not called that for nothing :smile-new: . No, seriously, anybody who bought the game in the middle of alpha development should be aware that the game might still change a lot. Steam points this out, but no matter how big the letters are set, people have to experience it to ultimately know what that means. If someone has a relatively narrow taste in game mechanics or is change-averse or builds a "comfort" zone around him then EA is a hard place to be.
You can't buy an EA game (except if it already is in the beta phase) in the safe knowledge that you will get just more of the same and polished. Instead (and that is clearly stated by steam) you should only buy EA if you are happy about the game as it is at that moment. It could be the last version ever or it could be the only version that does suit your tastes.

I know some Early Access games and I wouldn't know of any game where the orientation would have changed so much. Usually only new content is added in this phase but the general orientation is already clear.

Also the Youtuber I was talking about have been involved in the development since several Alpha versions but they haven't experienced such changes yet.

Some players probably came to the game via Let's Plays. They're not interested in what's on an old Kickstarter page or anywhere in a description. They judge by what they saw.

I also saw it for the first time on Youtube. I didn't see that the players just walked around and killed zombies all the time or that they fought for their lives. They built at the base and just had fun. And that's what I miss most about Alpha 17. Just having fun.

 

[FishStyk]

I'm just pointing out that the reaction (not cause) of the design changes in A17 shows that fresh eyes don't necessarily see them as bad or unfun.

Understood, and I'm just pointing out that fun is relative and that the new eyes are making that assessment with less information.

If the game is fun now but was more fun before, that, in the end, will result in less players happy with the game.

 

[FishStyk]

This is about different tastes. … . That doesn't mean the taste of those old players is wrong, but it also doesn't mean their taste is what 7D2D has to look like in the end.

Agreed. It's FP's game and their risk/rewards gambled on these changes. IMO, the earlier sandbox design was what made 7d2d unique and so popular, but FP knows the numbers better than I. Maybe the sandbox game design wasn't drawing as much audience as I thought..?

My suspicion is that the new changes are hurting the game, and I've seen game designers stick to their own vision even at the cost of a products success before.. Hopefully they make good calls. All I can do at this time is provide candid feedback, as I'm not planning to start a game company just to make a better version of pre-alpha17 7d2d.

 

[meganoth]

We know the legendary items are coming but you don't know what they will bring. If these are just painted weapons with ridiculous bonus effects, that won't change the problem.

Since TFP didn't do the fun but unrealistic stuff with mods even though they could have, and have shied away from more interesting but more fantasy zombie types I think the chance that they will make borderlands type weapons is pretty slim. There are still lots of things they could do with legendary weapons:

1) simply base damage increase

2) increase of base accuracy, shooting speed... All the paramters you can improve with mods and perks could have an intrinsic bonus built into the weapon itself. Since you already (maybe crudingly) accept that as mods and perks you can't really fault it in a legendary weapon. (Hopefully the make the boni random)

3) Legendary weapons might have mods built in without blocking a mod slot, i.e. the sniper rifle with built in x8 scope and still 5 mods slots open

4) Legendary weapons might be able to have two mods of the same type installed. A special double barrel gun which allows two barrel type mods.

But yes, if realism is high on your priority list and depending on how much TFP does in that area legendaries could become a problem for you. But even in this case it will change the problem from item scarcity to believability for you.

And for many players there won't be a realism problem at all (speaking for me and at least 2 of the 3 friends I play with). So I really can say for me and my friends: Legendary weapons will improve the end game for us, with almost 100% certainty. The only realistic way how they could demolish the feature for us would be to make legendary stuff findable at every corner, and that would be easy to rectify with modding.

And as for the mods, I hope that there will finally be more mods for tools instead of just for weapons. I'm sick and tired of guns. Now the builders should get some love again.

Hope so. Armor also needs more mods. Maybe vehicles should get mods too(?). But even weapons have not enough mods for a complete game.

I know some Early Access games and I wouldn't know of any game where the orientation would have changed so much. Usually only new content is added in this phase but the general orientation is already clear.

Also the Youtuber I was talking about have been involved in the development since several Alpha versions but they haven't experienced such changes yet.

Some players probably came to the game via Let's Plays. They're not interested in what's on an old Kickstarter page or anywhere in a description. They judge by what they saw.

I also saw it for the first time on Youtube. I didn't see that the players just walked around and killed zombies all the time or that they fought for their lives. They built at the base and just had fun. And that's what I miss most about Alpha 17. Just having fun.

Yes. It seems many games really enter EA only for the beta phase or pretty late in alpha. EA only works if the players already have fun playing the game and the more complete a game is the easier it is to provide that. Experiments are done before EA behind closed doors. So 7D2D is certainly not a typical EA game. It still fits the description of what steams says EA is.

About your last paragraph: A17 is the first time I really started designing and building complete horde bases. In the time I don't build I kill as much zombies per hour as in previous alphas. I don't doubt you have less fun, but that is a personal thing between you and the game, there is no game mechanic that forces people to change the way how they play the game between A16 and A17. Survival became harder, sure, but that is part of a survival game, it wasn't really survival until now.

Did you ever try turning down difficulty or making zombies not run? Did you ever reduce block damage of zombies or increase the damage you make? (Did I suggest this to you before and you had a good reason why not and I forgot it? :fat: If yes, then sorry). Even the multi-zombie-block-damage-bonus can be turned off I think, so you can remove much of what makes zombies different now. You can change how hard survival is.

 

[Roland]

Understood, and I'm just pointing out that fun is relative and that the new eyes are making that assessment with less information.
If the game is fun now but was more fun before, that, in the end, will result in less players happy with the game.

People who are having fun typically don't think about how much fun they would've had if the current default were somehow different so for those who are having fun whether they have "complete information" or not is irrelevant. That they are having fun is all the info they need. It would take a third party to go and get in their face and explain that they aren't having as much fun as they think they are...

Agreed. It's FP's game and their risk/rewards gambled on these changes. IMO, the earlier sandbox design was what made 7d2d unique and so popular, but FP knows the numbers better than I. Maybe the sandbox game design wasn't drawing as much audience as I thought..?
My suspicion is that the new changes are hurting the game, and I've seen game designers stick to their own vision even at the cost of a products success before.. Hopefully they make good calls. All I can do at this time is provide candid feedback, as I'm not planning to start a game company just to make a better version of pre-alpha17 7d2d.

All they can do is follow their own vision. When that hurts sales the naysayers will point and say "See? They killed their own game" and the fans will point and say "This game is so niche and TFP never sold out to the masses!"

If TFP does listen to the majority who want it different and abandon their vision then the naysayers say" See? they sold out. They went mainstream to follow the money!" and the fans say "Wow, TFP listened to us"