Ghostlight
Refugee
That's looting, not farming. And the main issue for me is the tediousness of the replanting. Busy work. Just more busy work. Game seriously doesn't need that.
PC Farming not very viable even with living off the land 3.
- Thread starter WayneFrancis
- Start date
That's looting, not farming. And the main issue for me is the tediousness of the replanting. Busy work. Just more busy work. Game seriously doesn't need that.
Rince
Refugee
Yeah, I was so happy when they changed farming in A19. Finally I actually used farming since, well, forever.
Sure, the system could had been tweaked increasing the farm plot costs, or the growing time, or adding irrigation, or tweaking the yield taking in account the points in LoTL.
But was nice. And actually enjoyed working slowly to have my farm.
And then in A20 they bulldozed the entire system.
Sad times, sad times. I don't want to replant my crops every single time.
Sure, the system could had been tweaked increasing the farm plot costs, or the growing time, or adding irrigation, or tweaking the yield taking in account the points in LoTL.
But was nice. And actually enjoyed working slowly to have my farm.
And then in A20 they bulldozed the entire system.
Sad times, sad times. I don't want to replant my crops every single time.
I don't understand the problem here. If you invest 1 point in LotL then you are hoping to find seed schematics, if you want to make sure you invest another point. This is the same as with many schematic perks in INT, you invest to be independant of chance, or you don't and hope to find the schematics. In my SP game I found most seed recipes by day 34, in our MP game at day ~17, I found corn and mushroom seed recipes and lots of others, only potato seed recipe didn't drop yet.
Only theoretically a problem, no problem in practice.
Not investing a point into LotL was devalued, sure. Now, if you want a self-sustaining farm, at least 1 point is necessary. But I would say LotL 0 is exactly what you termed "a farm as a supplement to scavenging" instead of doing real farming. Each seed you find is worth 2+(1/2*2)+(1/4*2)+(1/8*2)+... ~= 4 produce with minimal effort of putting the seeds into a few farm plots. Notice you don't need seed schematics at all with this method because MAKING seeds is the worst mistake you can do without points in LotL.
I made a small python script to simulate farming. I changed it to simulate 100.000 farms with LotL1 starting with 5 seeds and never getting another seed and what they have after 20 seasons:
The lowest number of seeds someone had was 34, just one person of 100.000. Another person had 36, Another 38. On the other hand 96 people had 999 seeds (the highest number of seeds my script prints out).
In summary not even 1 person in 100.000 had a failed farm starting with 5 seeds in a simulated run (if you can convert to seeds). Not sure what you mean with "1:20", but with LotL1 you can convert to seeds for unlimited farming or simply use the produce if you can't convert to seeds. And finding seed recipes is inevitable over time, not necessarily for every seed type, but for enough to get some better recipes going.
What is missing are some more recipes as alternatives if you don't find corn or potato seed schematic. There are some, but maybe not enough
The script if anyone wants to run it (the important parameters are now listen at the start of the script for easy changing):
Code:
#!/usr/bin/python3
seedsAtStart= 5
seasons= 20
numberOfTests= 100000
from random import choice
def simulateseasons():
seed=seedsAtStart
produce=0
for n in range(seasons):
# produce to seed
while produce>=5:
seed+= 1
produce-=5
for s in range(seed):
produce+=4
if choice([0,1])==0:
seed-=1
# print ("Season ",n+1,": ", seed," Seeds, ",produce," Produce.")
return([seed,produce])
stat= [0]*1000
for tries in range(numberOfTests):
x=simulateseasons()
seeds=x[0]+int(x[1]/5)
if seeds<1000:
stat[seeds]+=1
for n in range(1000):
if stat[n]>0:
print(stat[n]," People have ",n," Seeds.")
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GlyphGryph
Refugee
They desperately need to add a "flatten soil" option to make something like this (and countless other constructions) actually look good.pApA^LeGBa said:
And yeah the hitboxes are bad
I agree the current situation sucks and the required recipes makes any farming REQUIRE either luck in finding recipes, or investment into the endurance tree (at least down to LotL 2). Because yup, my toughness determines if i can figure out how to farm.hiemfire said:
As far as the numbers go, they're fine for anyone investing a single point in LotL "as long as you can CRAFT the seed" (which I said in my post above)....your odds of NOT getting a seed in 5 plantings are 3.125%. But wait! there's more! Even if you get no seed, you still have enough to plant 4 more plants (then 3 plants, then 2 plants, then 2 plants again, then 1 plant 5 times....this is assuming the 50% seed chance never triggers in 21 tries)! It's already risk mitigated. What you're complaining about is what you are complaining about - its hard to start a garden from scratch without big investment (more than 1) into the LotL skill...with only a couple seeds, the chance of loss exists, and falling behind means another several in game days of low yield. It ruined "casual farming."
That wasn't my point though. MY point was that you saying "oh look at the new change! LotL 2's new thing fixes it all!" does ABSOLUTELY nothing of the sort. Once you had LotL2, well, first of all you've already invested at least 4 levels into farming, and second of all, it fixes nothing....you could already endlessly farm with LotL 2, because that's where you learned the seed crafting recipes. That new change fixes NOTHING.
Not really...meganoth said:
With the rate of food consumption that 2 produce (because its 2, not more than that, I'll explain why I'm taking that viewpoint in a moment) was....small. It WAS just a supplement, BUT it felt like a suitable reward for "spending" an inventory slot to cart a seed back to your base from looting somewhere....and it kept paying off. Grabbing a seed while looting, with no intention of going into endurance, was an investment in making feeding yourself easier in the future....otherwise you just grab an extra can of food with that inventory slot.
Again, the value was that it was 2 produce, SUSTAINED. 2 produce doesn't match up to finding a chicken ration. If your concern was having enough food for your next big POI, screw the seed, grab the can of chicken. But if you did take the seed, you'd have 2 produce every few days....THAT was what made a dent, what made supplementing food with casual farming worth it. It was worth returning to your base every few days to harvest the small handful of crops you had. It was even worth making that long-term investment and taking 3 harvest cycles worth of produce to make another seed if you found a recipe, to get double the future yield. A great delayed gratification choice for the game.
That's GONE now. Sticking with averages, realistically, that 1 seed gives 2 food in a few days, 1 food a few days later, 0.5 food a few days later, and 0.25 food a few days later. So, as you said, 4 food, or 3.75....over the same time period (thats not even taking into account if growing times are longer, which I'm unsure of) that you used to get 8 food. And beyond that you get (virtually) nothing...as opposed to a continued 2 food each crop cycle. It wouldno longer be worth returning to your base for harvesting food supplements...your farm is constantly degrading. If you are looting a big POI, that seed is barely worth grabbing....its CERTAINLY not worth choosing over nearly any other food item to take an inventory slot...4 crops...eventually, or 1 can of chicken now? That delayed gratification choice of taking a few harvests and making a seed? gone. It IS now the worst thing you can do....more actual, meaningful (minor, but meaningful) choice stripped away.
Its no longer a "supplement to scavenging". Instead seeds, without LotL, are little more than a "poor inventory management choice"
hiemfire
Refugee
Please enlighten me as to how you got that from what I wrote?
Here is what I wrote again.
Yamamoto80
Refugee
This is a bit late and rather off topic... but for those who are experiencing a drastic spike in food usage, I recently found out that the Healing Factor perk can be the culprit. While I have played around 2000 Steam hours of 7DTD (Since A13 or 14 I think?), I never realized this when the park was added. The tooltip specifies "This perk does not work while you are starving" but I had always thought it was designed to stop healing you otherwise you wouldn't starve to death from damage. It seems the mechanic is similar to that of Minecraft, where is drains your hunger bar to replace your health bar.
Just wanted to chime in since I saw some people talking about severe hunger. If the Devs could update the tooltip with the words "drains hunger" I wouldn't be upset xD Anywho, I'm rambling... Carry on! ^_^
Just wanted to chime in since I saw some people talking about severe hunger. If the Devs could update the tooltip with the words "drains hunger" I wouldn't be upset xD Anywho, I'm rambling... Carry on! ^_^
Well, lets run the numbers. One corn and one pumpkin together with an egg, one animal fat and a glass of water gets you one punpkin pie rated at 50 food.
Two eggs would otherwise be best used in Bacon&Eggs rated at 36. It now depends very much on whether you consider one egg a rare resource or equal to the 5 meat or even something you can always get in quantities if you just drive around while hunting for animals or exploring anyway. Lets take the middle ground and rate them at 13 food a piece, and the 5 meat at 10 food as they are worth 10 as grilled meat. Animal fat is mainly used as cooking ingredient and should be in supply if you are hunting anyway. Glass of water is also not really worth mentioning.
So with that I would value 1 corn+1 pumpkin as 50 - 2x13 = 24 and you surely will agree that each is worth the same, so 12 food. One seed is on average say 3.75 produce, which means each seed is worth 45 food streched over its farm lifetime. While the typical can is worth 10 or 15 if you eat it.
Even if I just follow your initial argument to count it only as 2 produce and give some food value to animal fat it still comes out better than the best can even though the difference may be smaller (and I didn't even make the calculation with a top recipe like spaghetti which might look even better). But I can't see the reasoning for your initial assessment that seeds are only worth 2, you may have to explain that again. I would drop the "return to base" line at least, if you don't regularily return to your base anyway it isn't a base after all.
If you ask me, taking a corn seed home with LotL0 is totally worth it.
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Rince
Refugee
That's why I never took that perk now. I prefer to die being ripped apart by an horde of zombies, but not starving!
Food in general is weird.
You've got low-tier food and top-tier food and no real mid-tier stuff.
Like, I wanted to graduate from eating plain boiled meat because I had to eat like a full stack of it at once to fill up, so i looked into cooking and farming.
Beacon&Eggs is good, but there's no reliable way to get eggs.
Ok, so what do I need for the other foods?
Potatoes, corn, mushrooms.
Everything seems to require at mimimum two of these three, which means that you need a full farm and a bunch of seeds of each type.
Once you have all of those, you should be making stew anyway, so what's the point?
Like, Steak and Potatoes doesn't actually take meat and potatoes (a meat and one vegetable meal) it takes mushrooms too.
It also provides just as much food (50) as the meat stew.
So what's the point?
I'd rather if that meal literally just took meat and potatoes, and gave you 20 or 30 food instead.
A meal that gives you a decent but not amazing amount of food so you don't need to cook ten stacks of them, but actually doesn't require a full selection of every vegetable in the game.
Something to tide you over in the first one or two weeks while you're trying to get your initial farm set up and scrounge together enough seed-crops to actually get your corn, potato and mushroom farms going.
Cos that's the worst part. Having enough corn to start making 'proper' food, but not having enough potatoes, or enough mushrooms, so you're stuck eating boiled meat and the occasional bacon when you can find the eggs.
Nah, give me a real steak and potato recipe. Give me a steak sandwich (meat + cornbread) recipe.
Make them not great, but make them better than just boiling or grilling meat on it's own.
One vegetable is better than none.
As for the food that you make out of canned stuff... it's super situational, given the weird resources that they all take, and that there's no reliable source of specific types of canned food, so it's not really something that you can feed a whole group on. Plus, not every can is used in a recipe.
Setting up base in a building with a functioning vending machine is a pretty nice way to get a solid supply of food though.
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pApA^LeGBa
Hunter
Well we are on day 50 in MP and we have spaghetti, shepards pie and gumbo stew. Easy one of those daily for everyone of us. Simply never ignore a vending machine and buy every can from the trader directly. Yes they cost a lot more than in the vending machine, but at the point where you can make those foods, the money shouldn´t be a problem in MP.
Also buy ever cooked mela from the trader that you can get before you have the farm going. And ofc loot every restaurant type POI that you can for the shamway crates. There is a lot more of those POI´s in A20.
As for living the first two weeks on boiled meat, bacon and eggs and canned food: I already did that before the new farming system. And with even more animals in A20 it´s enough. But that´s ofc also a personal preference. Try to get someone to play a brawler build with knuckles, as those builds need fortitude from day 1 on, you can have Lotl on level 3 during the first week.
Also buy ever cooked mela from the trader that you can get before you have the farm going. And ofc loot every restaurant type POI that you can for the shamway crates. There is a lot more of those POI´s in A20.
As for living the first two weeks on boiled meat, bacon and eggs and canned food: I already did that before the new farming system. And with even more animals in A20 it´s enough. But that´s ofc also a personal preference. Try to get someone to play a brawler build with knuckles, as those builds need fortitude from day 1 on, you can have Lotl on level 3 during the first week.
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Tmodloader
Refugee
I understand this but with the previous system I'd always accidentally hit plants twice anyway and need to replant. If they ever go back to the no replant, I'd like it to be harder to accidentally destroy the plant.Rince said:
That's hugely informational, thank you. I play permadeath so I think I'm too careful to get severe hunger from low hp, but back in A19 I think I played multiplayer and didn't really care about dying so I had hunger all the time. You solved the puzzle for me.
While he is right, there is another side to this:
IF you have enough healing bandages to offset your damage the perk Healing Factor is probably a waste. But if not, then Healing Factor makes food work twice!!! Once with the built in healing shown in the tooltip, and again while it drains your food 1:1 against hitpoints.
I agree that with the current farming being highly random (you easily have one plant growing like crazy and other plants just not getting off the ground) food recipes have maybe too many holes.
But there ARE a few recipes that actually work:
The two pies need cornmeal, one other (titular) plant and an egg. Now eggs are too scarce to spam bacon&egg with them, but getting enough eggs for pies is practical if you continue to loot nests. Both are mid-level foods giving around 45 food.
And there is Steak and Potato meal as the alternative if you don't have corn.
All mid level recipes depend on 2 plant types, so if you can only spam one type of plant you will miss out on mid-level food, which seems ok.
I think the can-based cooked foods are well balanced. You can't spam-produce them and usually don't have a full stack of them to take with you, sure. But you can eat them at your base or have stacks of 2-5 to take with you. Sure you will often craft lots of different can-based food, but that makes the cooking a bit more interesting.
The recipes seem largely balanced so that what you find the most you also need the most. I.e. corn fields farms are the most common and easiest to find places in the world and most recipes depend on them. Next important is potatoes and while I seem to find as much blueberries as potatoes, they are second place in the world.
For people investing only 1 point into LotL there is the small problem that for them the corn or potato (seed and cooking) recipes are much more important than the other seed recipes but their drop rate is absolutely the same as all others. But you get what you pay for and LotL1 IS the poor man's farming.
SenpaiThatIngnoresYou
Refugee
Fox said:
I was thinking about this too, and give the crows a very evil Ai, where they fly in the air, do not attack, and perch to summon hordes. So you go out and deal with them, and now you have a very serious problem on your hands. This would also counter building greenhouses because if they see you then they summon more hordes. It gives the game a very sinister dark tower vibe in my opinion.
And to really counter greenhouses, have them fly straight into glass walls or ceilings to try to break them, sorta like real birds in real life.
As for farming not being worth it anymore, i have found that i don't farm i just buy food or scavenge food, or hunt. The zombies crawling through blocks has made horde nights very interesting and has forced me to abandon my bunker design hordebases.
Kiernan531
Refugee
You can talk about how the mechanics are set up and the math all you want, but what matters is what actually happens during play. I am currently on day 26 in my game and have LofL2. I have never once seen any seeds for sale at any of the three traders I have visited. I find lots of some seeds that I have no interest in growing, like hops, coffee and cotton, a few seeds of some crops I want, like corn, blueberries and mushrooms, and I have as of yet only found a single pumpkin seed and maybe 3 potato seeds. In terms of farming, my return on average has been one or two seeds for every 4 corn I harvest, 1 mushroom spore or blueberry seed for each 3 plants harvested. I had no return on the pumpkin or potatoes. As such, almost all of the crop foods I have are found in looting. When I started playing 7DtD in A17 through A19, farming was something I enjoyed. I was always eager to find rotting flesh and nitrate powder so I could build farm plots and get growing. But since A20 I don't really care about farming at all. I can find enough cornmeal, cans of chili, and cans of salmon to make fish tacos and chili dogs, go north to find wild blueberry bushes to make blueberry pies, and plenty of eggs and hunted meat for bacon and eggs that farming isn't even necessary to keep my food supply stocked. Making farming more grindy didn't slow down my advancement, it just took away an enjoyable part of the game.
I really couldn't care any less what the arm chair mathematicians or our fan boy mods try to explain about seed math.
I'm not asking for 1 seed to feed an army, and it makes sense that farming in a zombie filled apocalypse is hard, and sometimes plants fail.
But the current system is tedious, uninspired and really unworthy of everything else the fun pimps have produced.
Hopefully something better is in the works
I'm not asking for 1 seed to feed an army, and it makes sense that farming in a zombie filled apocalypse is hard, and sometimes plants fail.
But the current system is tedious, uninspired and really unworthy of everything else the fun pimps have produced.
Hopefully something better is in the works
BFT2020
Hunter
So basically, anyone that has used the new mechanics in-game and gotten success from it, their observations doesn't matter because you already have made your opinion on the issue and anything else is just less.