Enemies

[meganoth]

Where exactly do I put the ladders?

A picture says more than a 1000 words:



First two pictures are from our horde base (late game, 3 players co-op) in one of the cemetries. The first pictures shows a neat trick if you look closely. If you put plates on the wall below the ladder you have it easier to jump up, without them the jump can fail if you are standing flat against the wall. Which can be dicy if at that moment zombies are directly behind you.

Last picture is from our crafting base. Theoretically if you put a ladder on a wall zombies could stack upon each other and one might then enter the base but this happened not even once because the zombies will distribute. In the crafting base entry not even that is possible as there is no wall, but you might need a few jumps before you get up. But with a little training you will miss maybe 1 jump in 20.

I always make sure that the the ground left and right of the ladder is equally flat than the space directly before it so zombies can't go sideways to access the ladder. And it is advantageous that the floor block below the ladder is not an earth block as those can be a slightly lower than say cobblestone blocks and make jumping more difficult.

Also can zombies respawn in my POI when I go out and come back again? BTW I found out I'm on adventurer difficulty, I always go for the default one and it used to be Nomad I think.

If you don't use big buildings like hotels or factories and place a bedroll then it is not possible that zombies spawn in there. I don't know the range of the bedroll at the moment but I think it is ample enough to secure a typical residential area POI if you place it somewhere in the middle of the building. If you need more space you can use a landclaim block to add another "exclusion field"

PS: Just noticed it already is day 120 in that game. It was a game where I played with two first-timers and we really played on for a long time even after we had everything. One could argue this was a game to chill

 

[Matt115]

A picture says more than a 1000 words:

View attachment 20486View attachment 20484View attachment 20483

First two pictures are from our horde base (late game, 3 players co-op) in one of the cemetries. The first pictures shows a neat trick if you look closely. If you put plates on the wall below the ladder you have it easier to jump up, without them the jump can fail if you are standing flat against the wall. Which can be dicy if at that moment zombies are directly behind you.

Last picture is from our crafting base. Theoretically if you put a ladder on a wall zombies could stack upon each other and one might then enter the base but this happened not even once because the zombies will distribute. In the crafting base entry not even that is possible as there is no wall, but you might need a few jumps before you get up. But with a little training you will miss maybe 1 jump in 20.

I always make sure that the the ground left and right of the ladder is equally flat than the space directly before it so zombies can't go sideways to access the ladder. And it is advantageous that the floor block below the ladder is not an earth block as those can be a slightly lower than say cobblestone blocks and make jumping more difficult.

If you don't use big buildings like hotels or factories and place a bedroll then it is not possible that zombies spawn in there. I don't know the range of the bedroll at the moment but I think it is ample enough to secure a typical residential area POI if you place it somewhere in the middle of the building. If you need more space you can use a landclaim block to add another "exclusion field"

PS: Just noticed it already is day 120 in that game. It was a game where I played with two first-timers and we really played on for a long time even after we had everything. One could argue this was a game to chill

well interesting if  bedroll range is xy or xyz if  xy that mean hotel could be safe 

 

[Vinceras]

According to the wiki, a bedroll blocks a 31x31 meter rectangular area from zombie respawns.  For reference, the default setting for land claim blocks are 41x41. 

Seriously though, most of this game is about knowing or figuring out zombie pathing and taking advantage of the AI. 

Zombies will zig zag all over if you are not lined up directly north/south/east/west of them.  Once you are, they will path directly to you with very limited sway or zig zagging.  Makes for a much easier time dealing with them.  If you have a group coming at you, drop back a bit and make sure you are directly north, south, east, or west of them.  They will queue up nicely to die.

Most of what keeps you safe in this game right now is being above the zombies.  Seriously, JaWoodle on youtube is a great resource for base building videos.  If you prefer melee, look up his "Hatch Hallway" base.  If you prefer ranged, look up his "Killing Corridor" base.  You seem like you may have no interest in doing any research...but, honestly, you've probably spent more time in this thread than if you watched a base building video.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

Thanks for the ladder explanation @meganoth, it seems to be the easiest thing I can do until the game gets updated with the things I'd like.

@Vinceras I want to buld my own bases, not copy someone else's work.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

So, just to update you guys - I've found a mod that prevents zombies from ever breaking anything unless they dig, and I'm furious. The devs hardcoded the game so that you can never set damage of the zombies done to the blocks to 0 or prevent them from digging. Why on Earth did they do this? I don't like the "if you don't like the game this way, get mods" attitude, but at least it's something you can work with. But now it seems you can't even mod the game how you want it. Terrible.

But at least now I have somewhat acceptable experience until the game gets improved.

 

[Vinceras]

So, just to update you guys - I've found a mod that prevents zombies from ever breaking anything unless they dig, and I'm furious. The devs hardcoded the game so that you can never set damage of the zombies done to the blocks to 0 or prevent them from digging. Why on Earth did they do this? I don't like the "if you don't like the game this way, get mods" attitude, but at least it's something you can work with. But now it seems you can't even mod the game how you want it. Terrible.

But at least now I have somewhat acceptable experience until the game gets improved.

So, I'm curious....what about the game do you like?  What do you like to do?  Because, it kinda seems like you don't want zombies, or at very least you only want them when it's on your terms.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

@Vinceras Game used to be closer to what I wanted several alphas ago, before wellness and stuff got added. Basically what I want is Minecraft with realistic graphics and zombies. The world is great and stuff, but the further the development progresses, the harder the game is to play for me. If there weren't the super cool things like bicycle and others I would just downgrade to the alphas I enjoyed. I just don't enjoy having a sleeper in literally every POI, I don't enjoy zombies wrecking my base and myself every few minutes, especially if dogs and stuff bypass my "walk only" setting. I want bases (although I prefer to call them houses) to be safe. If you know how MC works you know that even the lousiest house makes you safe from enemies at night because they don't damage blocks. Sure, they'll wait for you just outside the door, but that's a problem you have a million ways to deal with. You can have a normal house there without spamming unsightly items (traps) everywhere or using half of a ladder. So, that's short of what I want in the game. Explore, collect resources, cook, build bases, fight zombies (when I want to) etc.

I really find it rather absurd that in this game the safest bases are the least safe ones (you need to keep all doors open so zombies don't damage your blocks). And I find it even more absurd that I have been living in my Navezgane watchtower for like 3 days without enemy spawn, with bedroll and land claim block placed and all, and right after I turned enemy spawning on the zombies literally spawned next to me including a sleeper inside my clear and inhabited home.

Well in any case, I would much prefer this game to be a "The Walking Dead" style, where zombies are slow and stupid and only dangerous in big herds or when you're injured. These super clever and fast zombies are no fun for me at all. If there should be only one option in the entire game it should definitely be to choose between "The Walking Dead" or "Resident Evil" styles. No idea why we are forced to play combination of both at all times.

 

[meganoth]

So, just to update you guys - I've found a mod that prevents zombies from ever breaking anything unless they dig, and I'm furious. The devs hardcoded the game so that you can never set damage of the zombies done to the blocks to 0 or prevent them from digging. Why on Earth did they do this? I don't like the "if you don't like the game this way, get mods" attitude, but at least it's something you can work with. But now it seems you can't even mod the game how you want it. Terrible.

But at least now I have somewhat acceptable experience until the game gets improved.

I think the reason is simple: They made the zombies able to dig with a quick&dirty patch that was then not fully developed to be moddable. Moddability does not come automatically, it has to be developed like everything else and needs time and lots of testing.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

I think the reason is simple: They made the zombies able to dig with a quick&dirty patch that was then not fully developed to be moddable. Moddability does not come automatically, it has to be developed like everything else and needs time and lots of testing.

I see, well let's hope they fix it sometime. Until then I'll stick with the 1 damage which already gives me more time to react.

 

[meganoth]

@Vinceras Game used to be closer to what I wanted several alphas ago, before wellness and stuff got added. Basically what I want is Minecraft with realistic graphics and zombies. The world is great and stuff, but the further the development progresses, the harder the game is to play for me. If there weren't the super cool things like bicycle and others I would just downgrade to the alphas I enjoyed. I just don't enjoy having a sleeper in literally every POI, I don't enjoy zombies wrecking my base and myself every few minutes, especially if dogs and stuff bypass my "walk only" setting. I want bases (although I prefer to call them houses) to be safe. If you know how MC works you know that even the lousiest house makes you safe from enemies at night because they don't damage blocks. Sure, they'll wait for you just outside the door, but that's a problem you have a million ways to deal with. You can have a normal house there without spamming unsightly items (traps) everywhere or using half of a ladder. So, that's short of what I want in the game. Explore, collect resources, cook, build bases, fight zombies (when I want to) etc.

I really find it rather absurd that in this game the safest bases are the least safe ones (you need to keep all doors open so zombies don't damage your blocks).

This has nothing to do with being safe. Zombies can destroy blocks and you still are safe. Just select a building and try to make it collapse. You will find out that a big part of it is still standing even if you have destroyed all except one supporting block. So who cares if they destroy a few block, you are still perfectly safe

And I find it even more absurd that I have been living in my Navezgane watchtower for like 3 days without enemy spawn, with bedroll and land claim block placed and all, and right after I turned enemy spawning on the zombies literally spawned next to me including a sleeper inside my clear and inhabited home.

Well in any case, I would much prefer this game to be a "The Walking Dead" style, where zombies are slow and stupid and only dangerous in big herds or when you're injured. These super clever and fast zombies are no fun for me at all. If there should be only one option in the entire game it should definitely be to choose between "The Walking Dead" or "Resident Evil" styles. No idea why we are forced to play combination of both at all times.

The reason for that is that zombies are very CPU-intensive for this game (creation, pathfinding, everything). TFP's choice was to field a smaller number of zombies at any time. To keep the balance they would have to be more dangerous.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

Makes sense, but why force it? You can literally disable enemy spawning or use cheats/dev tools so obviously devs don't care how easy you want to make your game. Why can't I choose to have my zombies less dangerous in the vanilla game?

 

[meganoth]

Makes sense, but why force it? You can literally disable enemy spawning or use cheats/dev tools so obviously devs don't care how easy you want to make your game. Why can't I choose to have my zombies less dangerous in the vanilla game?

Force what? I don't know what you are exactly refering to. You can directly lower block and entity damage of zombies, with the difficulty setting and additionally with "AI Block Damage" for blocks. To say nothing of mods that can lower damage to almost nothing. And if digging zombie damage does something different that must be a bug or an unfinished feature, as I already said.

Generally, the developers want a specific game play for vanilla, this is the game they want to play with exactly those limits, that is what they want to show new players. Exactly like a book author wants his book to be read just like he envisioned it. 

Similarily every modder has his own vision and wants a mode he thinks is fun for himself. This includes forcing a suitable balance and preventing circumventions to important stuff in the game. For example in a mod like Ravenhearst you have to craft sticks and rocks before you can make an arrow. If you don't want that, play something else or mod Ravenhearst

But also the developers want a way out for people who don't like vanilla the way it is. For those cases there are a few options but there can't be an option for every whim of a million players. So there exists modability as the big way to adapt the game to every wish.

So TFP says, play vanilla if you want to play how we envision the game. If not, mod it however you like, all fine by us. If anything isn*t moddable that is not on purpose, but just a bug or not enough developer time to make everything moddable.

Otherwise why provide modability in the first place if they really wanted to force players into some specific gameplay?

 

[MaxTunnerX]

What I'm refering to is that some types of zombies bypass my "walk only" setting, there is absolutely no way to set zombie block damage to 0 or to make them do 1 or 0 dmg by digging. Also all the things I suggested in the main post aren't a "whim" or something, it's very important to the gameplay and I'm sure many people would like to see that in game (especially people that don't even go to this forum because they lost interest). And I think it's more than fair and logical to ask for a "walk only" setting to really make all enemies "walk only" as leaving a couple zeds out of it makes the option almost non-existant (the chain and the weakest link logic). And don't even talk about mods here, it's super hard to mod speed of enemies or to delete them altogether because you have to do it individually and every alpha new enemies are added. This makes all mods made until that point obsolete and not working properly.

Anyway, so far I'm having a great time in the game with zombie block damage 1 mod, bicycle and stone sledghammer. I'm very afraid of what comes when my level goes up more, probably glowing zombies in every house again, but I'll deal with that as I get there. On that account I really think the game shouldn't scale enemies at all, there should be parts of the map with awesome loot and super hard enemies and parts with almost no loot but super easy enemies, like Fallout 4 or other games do it. Ofc in the "enemy scaling" setting as to not force it on hardcore players.

 

[meganoth]

What I'm refering to is that some types of zombies bypass my "walk only" setting, there is absolutely no way to set zombie block damage to 0 or to make them do 1 or 0 dmg by digging. Also all the things I suggested in the main post aren't a "whim" or something, it's very important to the gameplay and I'm sure many people would like to see that in game (especially people that don't even go to this forum because they lost interest). And I think it's more than fair and logical to ask for a "walk only" setting to really make all enemies "walk only" as leaving a couple zeds out of it makes the option almost non-existant (the chain and the weakest link logic). And don't even talk about mods here, it's super hard to mod speed of enemies or to delete them altogether because you have to do it individually and every alpha new enemies are added. This makes all mods made until that point obsolete and not working properly.

Good points. "Whim" is surely the wrong word, I probably should have said "desire" or "wish" but that doesn't exactly hit it either. You want something to be different, but there are players with hundreds of other ideas how the game should be changed for their comfort. I know because I see a lot of posts in the Pimp Dreams section every week and while lots of ideas are posted multiple times there are still more ideas that the developers have time to make options for them.

Now digging damage not adjusting is a bug and if it is important to you you should make a bug report (and please read and follow the instructions on how to post a bug). It may take a long time until it is fixed (since it isn't a critical bug).

AFAIK the settings for zombie speed just drop the speed of each zombie by a percentage (or by a step on some internal scale). You probably should argue with Faatal in the dev dairy that the settings are misleading and not that much helpful for you. He then might change how zombie speed works, OR he might change the description of the options to reflect better how they work.

On the other hand **IF** the speed of dogs for example is totally unchanged when you adjust that option then it probably is a  real bug and again a bug report would be a good idea.

When I say mods are the solution I don't want to imply everyone has to write mods. If some change is wanted by lots of people then there is a big chance one of them is able to mod the game and he often will also put the mod up for others. If you can't find such a mod it is either bad luck or maybe your wish isn't that often asked for by other people.

That mods have to be updated regularily is a disadvantage of EA and can't be helped. There are not many running zombies in the game and they don't change much every alpha and a new alpha is published once per year. Keeping a "not running" mod up to date is about 10 minutes work PER YEAR. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly with me.

Anyway, so far I'm having a great time in the game with zombie block damage 1 mod, bicycle and stone sledghammer. I'm very afraid of what comes when my level goes up more, probably glowing zombies in every house again, but I'll deal with that as I get there. On that account I really think the game shouldn't scale enemies at all, there should be parts of the map with awesome loot and super hard enemies and parts with almost no loot but super easy enemies, like Fallout 4 or other games do it. Ofc in the "enemy scaling" setting as to not force it on hardcore players.

The areas with awesome loot and enemies will be implemented in A20, that is already announced. On the other hand there are no plans (AFAIK) to make the normal areas easier. My advice: Play the game to the best of your abilities, record how many times you die and if you still die a lot or feel it isn't fun for you explain that and ask for a "story mode" difficulty setting in the dev dairy. Be prepared for reactions all over the spectrum. I would guess that most forum users will not understand why shooting glowies with a tactical rifle or shotgun with mods and perks in end game is anything but super easy already.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

So it seems the game becomes terrible after game stage 25 when specials come to play. Luckily for me, I have found an updated mod that disables all specials or only zombie animals etc. and repalces them with default zombies so that's great. As for what you're saying, I haven't really done extensive research on the dogs, but I can tell you that they sure as hell aren't walking. Maybe the option description should be updated like you said, but then again, why change description when you can make the option do what players expect from it? Just make the dogs and specials walk and slow flyers down to walk speed, problem solved.

Now to the completely irrelevant discussion of how to survive in the game not made for that - I've just tested wood spikes just to check if I'm right or if you guys are right. Sadly I'm right. Wood spikes get either destroyed by zombies in a couple hits, or just bypassed after one of them is destroyed, or disappear after a couple of hits dealt to the zombies. In fact the wood spikes are the only reason why I died during preparation for bloodmoon and during blodmoon as well (ran/fallen into them by accident). So no thanks

For anyone that feels the same way I do and wants to make the game playable right now without waiting, here are the mod links:

Zombie 1 block damage: https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/143/

No special zombies: https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/104

 

[Vinceras]

Now to the completely irrelevant discussion of how to survive in the game not made for that - I've just tested wood spikes just to check if I'm right or if you guys are right. Sadly I'm right. Wood spikes get either destroyed by zombies in a couple hits, or just bypassed after one of them is destroyed, or disappear after a couple of hits dealt to the zombies. In fact the wood spikes are the only reason why I died during preparation for bloodmoon and during blodmoon as well (ran/fallen into them by accident). So no thanks

Wood spikes especially aren't meant to be permanent fixtures...just like if you put wood spikes outside your house during a zombie apocalypse, it would only slow them down a bit and maybe take one or two out.  They'd still destroy the spikes and get through.  They are purely meant to slow them down, and make them crawlers while you pick them off.  Metal spikes do a better job, but still, same purpose and result, albeit a bit more sturdy.

I will say I kinda agree with the special zombies...I've always found them to be kinda dumb, even in Left 4 Dead...I just don't like them.  I'm totally okay with regular crawler/walker zombies, and I'm even okay with faster zombies in the new areas...but I kinda wish there was a way to toggle off radiated and special zombies(pukers, demos, wights, and spiders mainly).  Personally, I'm more of a fan of more slower enemies, than less enemies and some of them having special abilities.  But I know that it's difficult to have too many on screen at once with the system in place.

 

[BFT2020]

So it seems the game becomes terrible after game stage 25 when specials come to play. Luckily for me, I have found an updated mod that disables all specials or only zombie animals etc. and repalces them with default zombies so that's great.

Different reactions really.  I love how the special zombies up the difficulty as the gamestage progresses.  Without them, I can make a base and just sit there all night during the bloodmoon and not worry about them penetrating it.  If that was how TFP went, I wouldn’t still be playing this game.

And I think calling it terrible is too harsh.  Sure, you minght not enjoy it, but there are countless others who are actually looking forward to new specials that MadMole hinted at.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

@VincerasThen we are on the same ship in this matter. I hope some dev resources go into optimization or something to allow more weaker and slower enemies.

@BFT2020I'm saying my opinion and I can use whatever adjective I feel like. Also I think you haven't even read anything I've written so far so you don't know that I'm not trying to force gameplay on anyone. In fact I want to do the opposite aka un-forcing the gameplay you like but I hate on me. People should be able to choose in my opinion. If the devs do what I ask of them, your gameplay will not change at all, but my will, a lot. And if TFP prefer one way or the other, it doesn't mean they can't make more than just that way, just look how many settings and options there are already. It shows that TFP realise that blocking off entire communities from their game is a bad business practice, so they give players a choice. I just want to follow that path and make the game even more accessible to players.

 

[BFT2020]

@BFT2020I'm saying my opinion and I can use whatever adjective I feel like.

Sure, you can use whatever adjective you feel like...but which is the better way of going about it?

Option 1 (your way):  TFP - your game is terrible unless you input the options I want.  I don't care if it isn't in your plan or how much work it takes, but unless you do it, this game is terrible.

Or Option 2:   Hey TFP, I know you have a lot of work still ahead of you, but would you please look into adding an UI option to remove special zombies for some of us that don't want it?  Thanks for listening.  Keep up the good work.

 

[MaxTunnerX]

What the hell are you still on about? Game starts being terrible for me after game stage 25. Can't believe you can be so butthurt over people's opinions, especially those that aren't even about you. You should learn to accept truth in life, and truth is that all things in the world are good for someone and terrible for someone else.

I really have nothing else to say to this.