dont the modders deserve early access too?

[Gazz]

Personally I don't see a problem with all actual modders getting the XML files at the same time as the streamers.

It's more the overenthusiastic players who - having nothing better to do - "must" now browse the config files and blab out any "secret" they find without bothering with spoiler tags or anything of the sort.

Not to mention failing to understand what any of this means and complaining about all the "problems" they found.

For modders it's not that much of an advantage because having a wholly new system that you cannot run and experiment with... that's not a lot.

It's much easier to change a value and see how it behaves in game because then there is context.

 

[Guppycur]

Either way, 3 days isn't going to make or break it as a pro or a con.

Mayne kub is right in that the goodwill would be a pro, and CC is right that there is little con.

Okay gazz, you have my permission. Release the xmls.

 

[random person]

Okay gazz, you have my permission. Release the xmls.

lol.

 

[Guppycur]

Four

 

[Crater Creator]

Personally I don't see a problem with all actual modders getting the XML files at the same time as the streamers.
It's more the overenthusiastic players who - having nothing better to do - "must" now browse the config files and blab out any "secret" they find without bothering with spoiler tags or anything of the sort.

Not to mention failing to understand what any of this means and complaining about all the "problems" they found.

I'm surprised if that's your biggest reservation. You're releasing it early to the streamers. The streamers will play a full, unrestricted build. If there are sharknados in Alpha 17, streamers aren't going to see the sharknado in the distance and steer clear of it for fear of spoiling things for their viewers. They're going to reveal anything and everything they can find.

And you, the developers, should want it that way, too. You want buzz. You want players squeeing in glee as they watch the streamers experiencing the new stuff they haven't seen before. You don't help a media blitz by holding back. So let modders blab. Let their minds run wild with ideas. Let them overanalyze every little change and discuss it ad nauseam - they were going to do that anyway. Let that push the hype train that much faster.

If you want to limit non-modders looking at the files, you could share them over in the modding section. Most people not interested in modding don't bother keeping up with developments over there.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Was adapting your mods to A16.0 more trouble than it was worth with A16.1 on the horizon? A16.1 when A16.2 was coming soon? It's a serious question - one to which some modders answered yes and some answered no. But I have to think a lot of modders would benefit greatly from seeing, say, an example of a more advanced quest, or what all AI tasks are available, or something else that could change everything that I can't even conceive of without seeing the files.

In the interest of transparency and truth you are 100 percent correct. The second Expermantal is released the wheels WILL be turning. I LOVE modifying the xmls, I love browing the assembly file etc. So for me, no Experimental 1-whatever will not stop me or discourage me from updating and converting my mod. I already have people asking if I will be doing it so interest is high.

Gazz has a great point though. So much will be changed that sure I can convert some of my mod to 17 standards, but the whole thing? VERY doubtful without getting in game.

So would I love to have a preview of the xmls? Sure, if only to see what i would be dealing with and how things have changed. Would I spoil things? Nope. I wouldn't post anything publicly. Do i NEED it? Nope. Im fine either way and as Gup said three days isn't a big deal.

That's not to say I wouldn't be honored to be included on a list of actual modders who were deemed blessed enough to get them. But that raises the same questions. Who is the one who would make that decision as to who gets it? Some of those influential modders already DO have it, so what, we make a secondary list of second most influential? Who is on that list?

And I wouldn't even begin to dream of releasing any kind of mod (well an overhaul like mine) until I have actually played in game for multiple hours. No way you can get a true feel for new balances etc without experiencing it yourself first.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Personally I don't see a problem with all actual modders getting the XML files at the same time as the streamers.
It's more the overenthusiastic players who - having nothing better to do - "must" now browse the config files and blab out any "secret" they find without bothering with spoiler tags or anything of the sort.

Not to mention failing to understand what any of this means and complaining about all the "problems" they found.

Did you watch any of the streams last year? NO one did a play through, they CM'ed all the secrets and god moded around the towers, so that's a flimsy excuse at best. At least modders understand what they are looking at and can explain things. Average Joe Streamer made MANY a judgment on the creative menu items and spoiled it ALL with zero context. Including spawning in non working Behemoths. At least a modder could explain in seconds WHY it didn't work properly.

Normal streamers have the option of letting anyone on their server. There's no possible way to stop them from checking xmls for themselves, or streamers looking over server configs. Its unrealistic to think no one will look at them. So many people try to mod things themselves now that it is guaranteed to get out one way or the other.

Besides thats what an NDA is for no? If the modder is serious about just wanting to see for himself, have them agree to it. Or they can take a walk.

Isnt Skippy an influential modder? Kickz and Fennec? How do you explain THAT being ok, but a normal modder not being ok in the interest of fairness. Is skippy and Kickz LESS likely to go through xmls and check out the "secrets". I know for a fact Skippy will be all over it. So SOME modders already DO have this access. How do you explain to Crater that he just cant have it, but Skippys second cousin who makes pois for him on his server is cleared to have it just because he knows Skippy (not to point skippy out i dont know if he has a cousin its just an example).

Hell I was even offered a spot on a streamers server so i can have that access if i really wanted. But i turned it down. All 4 one and One 4 all. Stupid i know, but it's my belief.

 

[DUST2DEATH]

Anyway you do it, its going to backfire/be unfair/be punitive/killed someones cat in some way, to some one.

 

[Gazz]

And I wouldn't even begin to dream of releasing any kind of mod (well an overhaul like mine) until I have actually played in game for multiple hours. No way you can get a true feel for new balances etc without experiencing it yourself first.

Hah! I'm quite certain no one will be updating any mods within hours... with item stats, buffs, skills, the damage system, food/water, health, stamina, loot and a bunch of new stats working in new ways. =)

I'm sure there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth about xyz totally super required mod not being available but... /shrug

 

[Guppycur]

Hm...

 

[Crater Creator]

Four

Hm...

What’s with the spam?

 

[Guppycur]

Four was telling rp the minimim characters for a post, Hm was pondering something Jax said, that I ended up finishing the thought on discord pm.

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

There is a difference in approach between the levels of user, casual modder, Forum Modder. user wants an needs it now for tangibility. Casual modder wants it now, but keep busy learning something else till release. Forum Modder, be it the hard copy, or, as released earlier today the options abilities and choices, The ability to choose takes precedence, easy visual proof. go to Ken's first post look at the responses not mod "Meh, but i still need want when how" Typical modder response I can do what, so then i can do this too, Holy "" batman. Typically excited and seeing the possibilities . So give it early, or 3 days later, If they know what it can do, time doesnt really matter.

 

[Kubikus]

1) That is a good point about gaining sympathy and showing good will. Doing an early release of the xmls might be a possibility. I'm willing to pitch it to the Huenink Bros. and see what they say at least.
2) You paid for access to development builds which you always have and is never revoked. Looking at it objectively, being able to play A17 earlier than others is the epitome of a privilege. I feel privileged that I have access. It is a trust granted to me that I'm grateful for and try to use to disseminate whatever information I can without violating my nondisclosure agreement. The three days early access for the stream event is also a privilege granted to those media personalities that met with our criteria. It is literally a privilege regardless of whether it is treated as such by anyone. Whether you attach positive or negative connotations to the word "privilege" is your own deal.

Quite a lot of people liked the first one and that was just four official streamers plus a handful of development team members and one guy who got permission from the owners to do it for charity. This time we are much more international and have over 100 streamers some of whom have over a million followers each. I think there will be a lot of people liking the bloody stream event.

Well the company is unified at least. There was no dissenting vote when it was discussed. Everyone seemed pretty excited about how we were doing it this time around. Some wanted the qualifying requirements to be higher but that was the only quibble. Not a single streamer has asked to opt out yet. I know some of them are unhappy that the date keeps shifting but none are boycotting. I'd take that as that group being pretty unified in their approval of the bloody event.

Saying it twice just makes it twice wrong. You have to understand that people like to watch streaming for the Personality. Streaming is more like a call-in talk show where all the callers can also chat with each other and the person who is running the stream is someone they enjoy watching and talking to. The game is background a lot of times. The point is that the small group of people from this forum who will go watch a streamer because they are curious about surprise features they might glimpse is a fraction of who will be watching. But there will be a much larger chunk of people who will tune in to see their guy or their gal and they'll also see 7 Days to Die.

You think that the world at large won't care or know about 7 Days to Die and so won't care to tune in to see the A17 update. What you are missing is that those people are tuning in to see Skippy or Kage or Neeb and crew. THEN they'll find out about 7 Days to Die and some will have their interest piqued. I've already seen it. I caught a stream where the streamer gave the announcement that she would be streaming A17 early and one of her followers asked "WTF is A17?" She then spent 10 minutes talking about how much she loves 7 Days to Die and how awesome it was and why it captured her imagination so well. Others in the stream chat heard her say this. Granted there were probably only about 30 actively watching at the time but what is such an endorsement worth when it is made so obviously extemporaneously, sincerely, and by someone those 30 people already admire? If half of the streamers play A17 and are excited and happy about it then there just is no way someone can convince me that this marketing venture is a bad idea.

I agree with this but that doesn't mean the head honchos will. It IS their baby after all. But like I said I'm happy to at least pitch it and see if it goes over home plate.

Noone likes the stream event, Roland. I must insist. Sure, people will watch and have a good time. What else should they do, right? It's not like they could download and play A17 themselves. Cuz they're not allowed. Why not? One reason only: The company is using the excitement of loyal fans and customers for a marketing stunt. Withold the game from the fans, and they got nothing better to do on the weekend than watching the streams.
Ironically, the company could have a likable stream event. Just organize the weekend with 100 international streamers, give out keys, but let everybody download the game. People would still watch the streams, there's plenty of time to enjoy playing and watching.

But no. Game's held back, like a bloody year of development wasn't enough. Who likes that attitude? Who thinks "wow, Joel and devs, my, they are a bunch of great guys"? Yes Roland, I know, but you don't count.

XML files: Mods increase the value of the game. It's probably not an actual selling point, people who buy will not (particularly) make the decision because there are mods, but mod makes people play longer. Modders, if you ask me, aren't really beggars, it would be plausible and reasonable for the company to work with modders and support them as much as possible.

Don't you agree?

Yet, even just providing the bloody XML files is a big deal. It's kinda like "unheard of" to ask for that. Gazz seems to support some kind of selective access for certain people three bloody days early.

I mean.. Are you kidding me..? It's a

-type of situation. Why not "wow, thanks guys for helping making our game more valuable and increasing the replayability drastically, here, have all the files and all the tools we can provide, please keep going and hey, if you have any requests, let's talk about it"?

 

[DUST2DEATH]

But no. Game's held back, like a bloody year of development wasn't enough. Who likes that attitude? Who thinks "wow, Joel and devs, my, they are a bunch of great guys"? Yes Roland, I know, but you don't count.

Don't you agree?

As someone who has backed a number of EA games and been burnt hard, ( Towns/ Godus etc) and also invested in others (eg: project cars WMD)

I dont agree and I think that the TFP do a great deal more than most and dont deserve to be lumped in with the Towns/Godus lot. Thats downright insulting.

Towns just up and ran. Godus was subject to Peter. Some first party AAA studios just straight up DGAF and will lead everyone on for years whilst pumping out new games with the same old bugs and nothing changed/fixed.

Despite the timeframe for A17 taking longer than they expected. Its not even close to that level you are trying to portray.

Then you have the communication from the devs themselves. Well above what most other studios do.

Do I want A17? Hell yes I do. Everyone does.

I got told they were looking at modders/mods, I dropped my mod in an instant after being nudged.

Did I expect anything? Nope.

Is 3 days going to make a lick of difference? Nope.

In the end does it even matter? Nope.

 

[Roland]

Noone likes the stream event, Roland. I must insist....

Insist all you like. This appears to be our impasse. I insist that there are quite a few people who do like it and don’t want to have to choose between watching and playing. They appreciate that the release will come afterward so they can spend the weekend watching streams and then play it themselves on Monday. I’m not saying this group is the majority of those who visit this forum but it is a large group nonetheless and streaming is just getting more popular. The next event is sure to have even more people who are sincerely happy and excited to have a pre-release event. Put these people who are excited for the event and want it as a prerelease together with those who are fine with it or at least resigned to it but will (as you said) have fun because there’s no alternative and I believe that is the majority.

Now I do acknowledge that there are people like you who would always rather play than watch and so would rather have the download instead of the event to the degree that they feel angry about it. They’ll either boycott the event or maybe have an enjoyable time perhaps watching one of the dev streams or the internal tester streams if one of them decides to do it. But if not, it’s fine not everyone is going to be happy with every business decision.

 

[Kubikus]

As someone who has backed a number of EA games and been burnt hard, ( Towns/ Godus etc) and also invested in others (eg: project cars WMD)
I dont agree and I think that the TFP do a great deal more than most and dont deserve to be lumped in with the Towns/Godus lot. Thats downright insulting.

Towns just up and ran. Godus was subject to Peter. Some first party AAA studios just straight up DGAF and will lead everyone on for years whilst pumping out new games with the same old bugs and nothing changed/fixed.

Despite the timeframe for A17 taking longer than they expected. Its not even close to that level you are trying to portray.

Then you have the communication from the devs themselves. Well above what most other studios do.

Do I want A17? Hell yes I do. Everyone does.

I got told they were looking at modders/mods, I dropped my mod in an instant after being nudged.

Did I expect anything? Nope.

Is 3 days going to make a lick of difference? Nope.

In the end does it even matter? Nope.

I'm only talking about the stream event, not the company and game as a whole. Noone looks at the stream event and goes like "wow Joel, you and the guys really have outdone yourselves yet again". People either say "this sucks" or at best "yeah well, three days don't make a difference". You and me belong to the second group.

And that's not how good marketing works. Good marketing is supposed to make people feel good and present the company in a favourable way.

Insist all you like.

It is not a matter of predilection. Logic dictates it.

This appears to be our impasse. I insist that there are quite a few people who do like it and don’t want to have to choose between watching and playing. They appreciate that the release will come afterward so they can spend the weekend watching streams and then play it themselves on Monday. I’m not saying this group is the majority of those who visit this forum but it is a large group nonetheless and streaming is just getting more popular. The next event is sure to have even more people who are sincerely happy and excited to have a pre-release event. Put these people who are excited for the event and want it as a prerelease together with those who are fine with it or at least resigned to it but will (as you said) have fun because there’s no alternative and I believe that is the majority.
Now I do acknowledge that there are people like you who would always rather play than watch and so would rather have the download instead of the event to the degree that they feel angry about it. They’ll either boycott the event or maybe have an enjoyable time perhaps watching one of the dev streams or the internal tester streams if one of them decides to do it. But if not, it’s fine not everyone is going to be happy with every business decision.

There are people who like that they don't have to decide between playing and watching streams..? They're like "thank god, I can't download A17!!"

Where do these guys hide..? lol

I have a complementary question: When the decision was made to hold the game back for three more days, was it made with these people in mind? Or so that people who love the game have nothing better to do than watch the streams? Hm?

The thing, Roland. It is that you could have both. People playing and watching streams. Not only would that work, no, you'd also avoid all the drama. Probably you'd have an uncertain number of viewers less, but I doubt it would be significant, since, as you argued, people indeed like watching streams, particularly of their favorite streamer playing their favorite game. Many would take a break from playing when their guy goes live. Or play while watching or listening. Had they their hands on the game themselves, it'd also add to the conversation. Have you tried this? Did you know that? So on, so forth.

Got another thing. Ever heard of "average Joes"..? Those guys are nine-to-fivers. They got a workweek, starting Monday, ending Friday. Then they have a weekend to relax and unwind. Best time for a new alpha to drop?

. So when they come home, they can start sinking hours in. Not Monday, when they have to go to bed early, before and after a day of - potentially hard - work.
The stream event. It's another bad decision. Next time you guys plan anything? Just consult me first. You know. I'll even tell you what's best free of charge.

Since we can't have pictures of the president of the United States of America, well, not the current at least, how about this guy:

Eh? He he.

 

[S0M3D1CK]

From what I know, modders are taking a well deserved break. I also know some are not looking forward to rewriting entire xmls due to changes in game stages. My wife helps with one of the mods and I am not looking foreward to the " honey how do I fix this?".

 

[Roland]

I'm only talking about the stream event, not the company and game as a whole. Noone looks at the stream event and goes like "wow Joel, you and the guys really have outdone yourselves yet again". People either say "this sucks" or at best "yeah well, three days don't make a difference". You and me belong to the second group.

There is also a third group that say "this is exciting!" that you refuse to acknowledge. Evidence exists on the Streaming announcement page itself and in various conversations in different threads on the subject and in the replies of the streamer announcement videos. You are either turning a blind eye to that group or being disingenuous about it.

And that's not how good marketing works. Good marketing is supposed to make people feel good and present the company in a favourable way.

You can't please everyone. Not even "good" marketing does that. This will please enough to make it worth it.

I have a complementary question: When the decision was made to hold the game back for three more days, was it made with these people in mind? Or so that people who love the game have nothing better to do than watch the streams? Hm?

This is the error in your logic, Kubikus. You were never going to get it on a Friday. Nothing is being held back for three days. Even if we decided to cancel the stream event the experimental build would not be released until Monday. So there really are only two choices for people:

A) Do nothing from Friday - Monday except continue to post speculation and whatnot and then get the build and start playing Monday.

B) Watch a streaming preview event from Friday - Monday and post about the things you see and then get the build and start playing Monday.

You keep trying to frame the situation as a choice between playing A17 or watching A17 and that was never the choice. The choice is between not watching or watching and if you are of the opinion that the not watching is the superior path then there is an easy solution for you to make that happen for yourself.

The thing, Roland. It is that you could have both. People playing and watching streams. Not only would that work, no, you'd also avoid all the drama. Probably you'd have an uncertain number of viewers less, but I doubt it would be significant, since, as you argued, people indeed like watching streams, particularly of their favorite streamer playing their favorite game. Many would take a break from playing when their guy goes live. Or play while watching or listening. Had they their hands on the game themselves, it'd also add to the conversation. Have you tried this? Did you know that? So on, so forth.
Got another thing. Ever heard of "average Joes"..? Those guys are nine-to-fivers. They got a workweek, starting Monday, ending Friday. Then they have a weekend to relax and unwind. Best time for a new alpha to drop?

The moderator team discussed your photo of President Trump and decided we would let it stay until/unless someone used it to make a political statement at which point we would delete it. Sure enough someone brought up a political statement regarding Mr. Trump so I switched out the photo and changed the response. It's not that we don't want you to have pictures of Trump or other presidents, its just that they are triggers for people who will not be able to resist starting a fight. Mr. Obama can stay unless his face starts a political flamewar and then it will be bye bye to him as well

 

[iBane]

Insist all you like. This appears to be our impasse. I insist that there are quite a few people who do like it and don’t want to have to choose between watching and playing. They appreciate that the release will come afterward so they can spend the weekend watching streams and then play it themselves on Monday. I’m not saying this group is the majority of those who visit this forum but it is a large group nonetheless and streaming is just getting more popular. The next event is sure to have even more people who are sincerely happy and excited to have a pre-release event. Put these people who are excited for the event and want it as a prerelease together with those who are fine with it or at least resigned to it but will (as you said) have fun because there’s no alternative and I believe that is the majority.
Now I do acknowledge that there are people like you who would always rather play than watch and so would rather have the download instead of the event to the degree that they feel angry about it. They’ll either boycott the event or maybe have an enjoyable time perhaps watching one of the dev streams or the internal tester streams if one of them decides to do it. But if not, it’s fine not everyone is going to be happy with every business decision.

TFPs have every right to release A17 in whatever fashion they want; I have zero problem with the streamer preview approach. That being said, I personally won't watch the stream events, because I want the fun of discovering the new and updated content/gameplay on my own.