dont the modders deserve early access too?

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as the title said, i havent released a full mod pack yet, but since you are giving early access to youtubers and streamers, i think modders deserve it too.

again, i am not talking about myself since the most successful mod i released is just a crowbar....

so what do you think people?

 
As you've said yourself, not everyone who writes a mod deserves early access. The question then becomes "where do you draw the line?".

It's also kind of pointless trying to fix a mod when the systems you're fixing are broken and likely to change. I doubt TFP have had a truly working version of the game for months, everyone is changing their own little piece and the final part before experimental release is making sure these sub-systems don't conflict or cause issues with each other.

 
I had brought this up to the team a while ago, and basically it came down to "How do you choose WHO gets access?", and "What difference is 3 days going to make?". The latter was especially relevant because even between what the Streamers get on Friday, and what the rest of us can opt into the following Monday, there could be serious changes.

 
as the title said, i havent released a full mod pack yet, but since you are giving early access to youtubers and streamers, i think modders deserve it too.again, i am not talking about myself since the most successful mod i released is just a crowbar....

so what do you think people?
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I don't think so.. Things could (and probably will) change daily requiring wipes as in previous experimental builds. At that point they wouldn't offer much more than regular and seasoned players.

 
The thread title is a bit of a loaded question. Modders do get early access. They and everyone else that bought the game have access to a pre-release version of the game right now. It's important to not lose sight of that mindset.

With that out of the way... it would be nice to have access to the files early. For my part as a modder, the argument goes that the files we have access to now are over 10 months old. So even if A17E is still weeks or months away (just for the sake of argument), having the xml files in particular would mean modders can pick apart most of the coming under-the-hood changes, and start accommodating those changes into their mods.

I for one am not looking to play the game before others - I'd be happy to just tinker with files that aren't actually usable before the release. But for now I feel that modders are sitting on their hands, since they don't really know what of their previous work will be portable and how easily.

 
The thread title is a bit of a loaded question. Modders do get early access. They and everyone else that bought the game have access to a pre-release version of the game right now. It's important to not lose sight of that mindset.
With that out of the way... it would be nice to have access to the files early. For my part as a modder, the argument goes that the files we have access to now are over 10 months old. So even if A17E is still weeks or months away (just for the sake of argument), having the xml files in particular would mean modders can pick apart most of the coming under-the-hood changes, and start accommodating those changes into their mods.

I for one am not looking to play the game before others - I'd be happy to just tinker with files that aren't actually usable before the release. But for now I feel that modders are sitting on their hands, since they don't really know what of their previous work will be portable and how easily.
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But then that would defeat the real purpose of an experimental build, no?. It's there to shake out any possible bugs for TFP by broadening the test process to a wider audience. Its not meant to be looked under the hood for modders to get a head start on their mods :) Please don't take this as an attack. It's an opinion / view.

 
so what do you think people?
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I think trying to extensively mod a game in alpha makes about as much sense as repeatedly slamming one's head into a brick wall. It's frustrating enough when patches in a released game break mods, much less the kind of changes alpha iterations bring.

 
There is no net advantage FROM THE FUN PIMPS PERSPECTIVE to modders having earlier access, except perhaps to assist with standardizing steam workshop support, but that's not really early access as much as it is consultation.

I also don't see it as huge advantage from the modders point of view either; sure, they'll be able to get their mod out what, 3 days sooner? Big whoop.

And, as others have mentioned (and I've mentioned before), who do you choose? The most popular mod? Valmar isn't even around anymore. The most technically updated mod? Mort is pretty busy with real life. The mod with the most current players? The mod with the most changes?

And what if the key gets out, and some other random person (see what I did there? ;) ) starts posting THEIR a17 mod, when say, Jax didn't get a copy and gets all (rightfully so) butthurt.

There is NOTHING to gain imo, other than the aforementioned consulting idea.

 
There is no net advantage FROM THE FUN PIMPS PERSPECTIVE to modders having earlier access, except perhaps to assist with standardizing steam workshop support, but that's not really early access as much as it is consultation.
I also don't see it as huge advantage from the modders point of view either; sure, they'll be able to get their mod out what, 3 days sooner? Big whoop.

And, as others have mentioned (and I've mentioned before), who do you choose? The most popular mod? Valmar isn't even around anymore. The most technically updated mod? Mort is pretty busy with real life. The mod with the most current players? The mod with the most changes?

And what if the key gets out, and some other random person (see what I did there? ;) ) starts posting THEIR a17 mod, when say, Jax didn't get a copy and gets all (rightfully so) butthurt.

There is NOTHING to gain imo, other than the aforementioned consulting idea.
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So there are two separate questions here: what's the incentive for the developers to do this, and how could it be done fairly?

It could be done fairly by releasing to all modders. Make it publicly available to everyone. But wouldn't that negate the whole premise of early streamer access? No, because we're not talking about releasing the build. All I and a lot of modders would want are the xml data files. By themselves, without an A17 build, the files aren't useful for playing the game. But they're useful to modders eager to start merging in their changes. Because again, no matter how far away A17 stable is, the bigger hurdle is that all modders have over 10 months of catching up to do.

What's the incentive for the developers? Well, modders understand the game on a different level than streamers. If they have a chance to pick apart the files, they'll find some interesting tidbits. It will excite the modders themselves, and they'll naturally want to share their findings with others here and beyond. Modders can communicate what all the changes will mean for the future of modding, in ways that don't come across in a change log. In short, modders could be a part of that big buzz the developers want to spike when the streamers get it.

Is that a good enough reason to release the files early? It's not my call, but I'll at least maintain there's a cogent argument in favor of it.

 
The one and only reason I would ever desire any early access to files is to see what I will have to prepare for. As much of a fight as I have put up about selective early access for some, it was never truly about thinking modders has any right to files early. Now this does not mean that it wouldn't be a nice gesture for us, the question is exactly as Guppy has posed it. Who gets the access, and why.

Now you get into public visibility, download numbers and other tricky situations. Who is to say Walkers deserves it over Undead Legacy, or that Valmod should get it over Welcome to Canada etc etc. Now you are right back where we started with people claiming favoritism and unfairness. Screw all that noise.

The true modders, the ones who are not beating a drum and saying "give me now" understand that getting access to those files in the end does not serve a greater purpose. Sure we could start working, or provide feedback, but all that changes as experimental goes on. It would just wind up being more trouble than it is worth.

I only ask for fairness across the board. And the streamer thing took a year to get to that point. Can you imagine trying to create that fairness amongst modders? I think most of us are just fine waiting for the experimental along with everyone else.

Hell I will be playing right along with you guys for the first few days and weeks before even thinking about starting to convert my mod. The best mods come from those who have an understanding of the game, and there's going to be quite a few new ways of playing and adapting so theres most certainly going to be a learning curve to developing a properly balanced mod with the new implementations.

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Nah ♥♥♥♥ it i'll take it if it's available. :D

 
Okay CC, you're a modder...

Consider this scenario.

I and say, 10 other select modders have access, how do you, as a modder who doesn't, and a moderator at that, feel?

Let's just say it's the xmls; xmls tell modders a lot about what's going to be in the game, surprises the devs may want to keep on the down low, or for features that might not make the release because they never finished... We already know the storm that came from the behometh and ziplines removed, and we saw those videos of those features.

Then we are back to "when". When are the xmls finalized enough to give to modders? Which brings us back to 3 days.

And still doesn't answer "what does tfp gain".

Insight from the modder's perspective? They already get that. And it doesn't require xml access.

 
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And still doesn't answer "what does tfp gain".
Insight from the modder's perspective? They already get that. And it doesn't require xml access.
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How about "people's sympathy"..? Seems fairly underrated these days, where access to a widely broken experimental version of the next upcoming alpha of an early access game (that we already paid for) is treated like some great privilege (that one has to "earn", as one might remember).
Who likes that bloody stream event? The company and streamers, and probably not even everybody in those two groups. Like I said before, that stream event only works because loyal fans of the game are excited and can't wait for the release. It's not people who don't own the game, why would they care about a couple of new features and some updated graphics of an EA game they don't even own. They will only be there in addition to the players, who will tune into the streams to see some footage three lousy days before they are granted the great privilege to play themselves.

XML files, to have it covered, can inspired modders and give them ideas. The company does not gain anything from releasing them, but they sure would not loose anything. Game's for adults, noone is interested in "surprises".

 
How about "people's sympathy"..? Seems fairly underrated these days, where access to a widely broken experimental version of the next upcoming alpha of an early access game (that we already paid for) is treated like some great privilege (that one has to "earn", as one might remember).
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1) That is a good point about gaining sympathy and showing good will. Doing an early release of the xmls might be a possibility. I'm willing to pitch it to the Huenink Bros. and see what they say at least.

2) You paid for access to development builds which you always have and is never revoked. Looking at it objectively, being able to play A17 earlier than others is the epitome of a privilege. I feel privileged that I have access. It is a trust granted to me that I'm grateful for and try to use to disseminate whatever information I can without violating my nondisclosure agreement. The three days early access for the stream event is also a privilege granted to those media personalities that met with our criteria. It is literally a privilege regardless of whether it is treated as such by anyone. Whether you attach positive or negative connotations to the word "privilege" is your own deal.

Who likes that bloody stream event?
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Quite a lot of people liked the first one and that was just four official streamers plus a handful of development team members and one guy who got permission from the owners to do it for charity. This time we are much more international and have over 100 streamers some of whom have over a million followers each. I think there will be a lot of people liking the bloody stream event.

The company and streamers, and probably not even everybody in those two groups.
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Well the company is unified at least. There was no dissenting vote when it was discussed. Everyone seemed pretty excited about how we were doing it this time around. Some wanted the qualifying requirements to be higher but that was the only quibble. Not a single streamer has asked to opt out yet. I know some of them are unhappy that the date keeps shifting but none are boycotting. I'd take that as that group being pretty unified in their approval of the bloody event.

Like I said before, that stream event only works because loyal fans of the game are excited and can't wait for the release. It's not people who don't own the game, why would they care about a couple of new features and some updated graphics of an EA game they don't even own. They will only be there in addition to the players, who will tune into the streams to see some footage three lousy days before they are granted the great privilege to play themselves.
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Saying it twice just makes it twice wrong. You have to understand that people like to watch streaming for the Personality. Streaming is more like a call-in talk show where all the callers can also chat with each other and the person who is running the stream is someone they enjoy watching and talking to. The game is background a lot of times. The point is that the small group of people from this forum who will go watch a streamer because they are curious about surprise features they might glimpse is a fraction of who will be watching. But there will be a much larger chunk of people who will tune in to see their guy or their gal and they'll also see 7 Days to Die.

You think that the world at large won't care or know about 7 Days to Die and so won't care to tune in to see the A17 update. What you are missing is that those people are tuning in to see Skippy or Kage or Neeb and crew. THEN they'll find out about 7 Days to Die and some will have their interest piqued. I've already seen it. I caught a stream where the streamer gave the announcement that she would be streaming A17 early and one of her followers asked "WTF is A17?" She then spent 10 minutes talking about how much she loves 7 Days to Die and how awesome it was and why it captured her imagination so well. Others in the stream chat heard her say this. Granted there were probably only about 30 actively watching at the time but what is such an endorsement worth when it is made so obviously extemporaneously, sincerely, and by someone those 30 people already admire? If half of the streamers play A17 and are excited and happy about it then there just is no way someone can convince me that this marketing venture is a bad idea.

XML files, to have it covered, can inspired modders and give them ideas. The company does not gain anything from releasing them, but they sure would not loose anything. Game's for adults, noone is interested in "surprises".
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I agree with this but that doesn't mean the head honchos will. It IS their baby after all. But like I said I'm happy to at least pitch it and see if it goes over home plate.

 
Okay CC, you're a modder... Consider this scenario. I and say, 10 other select modders have access, how do you, as a modder who doesn't, and a moderator at that, feel?
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...the question is exactly as Guppy has posed it. Who gets the access, and why.
Now you get into public visibility, download numbers and other tricky situations. Who is to say Walkers deserves it over Undead Legacy, or that Valmod should get it over Welcome to Canada etc etc. Now you are right back where we started with people claiming favoritism and unfairness. Screw all that noise.

I only ask for fairness across the board. And the streamer thing took a year to get to that point. Can you imagine trying to create that fairness amongst modders? I think most of us are just fine waiting for the experimental along with everyone else.
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Yes, "screw all that noise." I wouldn't do it that way. I already proposed a solution:

It could be done fairly by releasing to all modders. Make it publicly available to everyone. But wouldn't that negate the whole premise of early streamer access? No, because we're not talking about releasing the build. All I and a lot of modders would want are the xml data files.
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The true modders, the ones who are not beating a drum and saying "give me now" understand that getting access to those files in the end does not serve a greater purpose. Sure we could start working, or provide feedback, but all that changes as experimental goes on. It would just wind up being more trouble than it is worth.
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Was adapting your mods to A16.0 more trouble than it was worth with A16.1 on the horizon? A16.1 when A16.2 was coming soon? It's a serious question - one to which some modders answered yes and some answered no. But I have to think a lot of modders would benefit greatly from seeing, say, an example of a more advanced quest, or what all AI tasks are available, or something else that could change everything that I can't even conceive of without seeing the files.

Yes, modding experimental is going to suck. Modding in general sucks. You don't know when the foundation on which your mod is built will change, and you don't know by how much. Still, I'm betting the differences now compared to 10+ months ago are bigger than the differences will be from Streamer Day to Alpha 17 Stable.

It's a pipeline thing. It's like, if you're partway through building a railroad, the miles of track you've already built can still be useful to people that build trains, even if there's more to come. Even if the architect's going to change his mind and widen the gauge on the whole darn thing later, yeah that's a big setback, but many parts of the trains will still be usable, so long as the train makers had something to work off of and didn't have to wait for the golden spike before they got started.

Let's just say it's the xmls; xmls tell modders a lot about what's going to be in the game, surprises the devs may want to keep on the down low, or for features that might not make the release because they never finished... We already know the storm that came from the behometh and ziplines removed, and we saw those videos of those features.
Then we are back to "when". When are the xmls finalized enough to give to modders? Which brings us back to 3 days.
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In this scenario, the files would be released alongside the streamer build. How early the streamer build is released is really a separate discussion I'm not getting into here.

Yes, modders would discover things that were previously undiscovered. This is intentional. Nothing will be off limits to the streamers either, from what I've heard. They will have a 'full' build of the game. If there are bosses in Alpha 17, you better believe the streamers are going to rush to experience them. Many will voraciously consume as much content as possible while streaming, and vie to be the first to reveal new things, as is in their best interests as entertainers. TFP shouldn't expect to keep any surprises after the streamers are let loose, so anything modders find would simply add to this desirable buzz.

And still doesn't answer "what does tfp gain".
Insight from the modder's perspective? They already get that. And it doesn't require xml access.
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There's more in it for the modders than for TFP, no doubt. But as I said, modders see things in a different light.

...it will excite the modders themselves, and they'll naturally want to share their findings with others here and beyond. Modders can communicate what all the changes will mean for the future of modding, in ways that don't come across in a change log. In short, modders could be a part of that big buzz the developers want to spike when the streamers get it.
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